1443 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Adridos, on 24 June 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

The way ballistics work is actually not in line with the real world physics at all. It could be compared to naval artillery of the pre-industrial era, but the similarity is based upon game balance magic, not actual physics.

Collision damage is not physically simualted and the way it works is completely within the boundaries of game logic... it's as much of a simulation as Quake 3 simulates the velocity of a rocket fired by the rocket launcher. Sorry, but it's a massive no.

The last thing you said can also be acredited to either no knowledge of physics, a case of terrible wording or straight out lying. The fact these mechs couldn't even stand upright under a newtonian model aside (there's only so much physics you can apply to mechs), there are rather obvious missing factors that are not simulated. The preserval of momentum, for instance, while emulated on the forward/backwards movement is completely missing on the sideways movement and arm movement. Actual collisions are also a required basic for any simulation adhering to real life principles as two pieces of mass can't coexist in the same place at the same moment in time. Things like aiming inaccuracy are also completely left out (the fire comes out of predefined positions at the end of a barrel/lens and is then directed at the first collision point with the center of your screen with a perfect vector). The mechs also only operate on yaw axis, where both the mech and it's feet are always perfectly upright. They also climb hills on a completely artificial basis.

And here the simulation of MWO goes out of the window..

[Gremlich Johns]

They hit 47 million yesterday. $2,000 in just the past half hour - slow day. Engine tuning kit is the 47mil award!!

[Anjian]

There can only be a simulation if you are simulating something real (tanks, planes, ships). Mechs and star fighters are not real.

[Tank]

Anjian, on 26 June 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

There can only be a simulation if you are simulating something real (tanks, planes, ships). Mechs and star fighters are not real.

We can simulate asteroids colliding with Earth and calculating how munch damage it will cause to with billions of parameters.
So your statement are not true - we can compute how would things behave, if they existed or happened.

But that's science and we not yet have computational powers to deliver something like that for commercial projects like games, specially like MWO with server side computing and in real time. Cost of such project would be astronomical.

We simulate things in a degree of our abilities.

[Sybreed]

Tank, on 26 June 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

We can simulate asteroids colliding with Earth and calculating how munch damage it will cause to with billions of parameters.
So your statement are not true - we can compute how would things behave, if they existed or happened.

But that's science and we not yet have computational powers to deliver something like that for commercial projects like games, specially like MWO with server side computing and in real time. Cost of such project would be astronomical.

We simulate things in a degree of our abilities.

your argument doesn't contradict his at all. Asteroids DO exist and based on actual observations of them we can predict how they act. Starfighters and mechs don't exist and are completely impractical in that we would never build mechs or starfighters like in SC if we had the opportunity. It's been debated that the best shaped spaceship would be cylindrical because of how movement in space works and what not. Mechs, well, simply put, would be too clunky and fragile vs the already reliable good ole tank. Besides, mechs and starfighters are based on technologies that either don't exist yet and/or are completely impossible.

As for the question: which one is a sim. SC wins hands down. SC at least tries to duplicate space travel (although they cheat a little with the lateral movements and in some other departments), while MWO can't even handle hill climbing correctly, and apparently you can fire 6 recoil-inducing weapons at the same time and perfectly hit the same spot at any. Given. Range.

Edited by Sybreed, 29 June 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[ShinVector]

Sybreed, on 26 June 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

your argument doesn't contradict his at all. Asteroids DO exist and based on actual observations of them we can predict how they act. Starfighters and mechs don't exist and are completely impractical in that we would never build mechs or starfighters like in SC if we had the opportunity. It's been debated that the best shaped spaceship would be cylindrical because of how movement in space works and what not. Mechs, well, simply put, would be too clunky and fragile vs the already reliable good ole tank. Besides, mechs and starfighters are based on technologies that either don't exist yet are completely impossible.

As for the question: which one is a sim. SC wins hands down. SC at least tries to duplicate space travel (although they cheat a little with the lateral movements and in some other departments), while MWO can't even handle hill climbing correctly, and apparently you can fire 6 recoil-inducing weapons at the same time and perfectly hit the same spot at any. Given. Range.

Pretty sure mechs and Starfighters can be built with todays technology but don't think MW or SC please.. Those are supposed to be thousands of years in the future.
Just depends whether there is a need for it and whether some can make money out of it.

[Catamount]

Newtonian physics exist and can be observed for their behavior, too, in order to make predictions. Therefore, SC can still be a simulator. Ships have mass, that mass is acted on by thrusters of known power. Acceleration results.

MWO can be too. Is it? Eh, I'm with Sybreed there. It has its shortcomings, mostly because of botched balance decisions, but I digress.

[CyclonerM]

Catamount, on 28 June 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

Newtonian physics exist and can be observed for their behavior, too, in order to make predictions. Therefore, SC can still be a simulator. Ships have mass, that mass is acted on by thrusters of known power. Acceleration results.

MWO can be too. Is it? Eh, I'm with Sybreed there. It has its shortcomings, mostly because of botched balance decisions, but I digress.

Well, it would be possible to similarly fully simulate physics in MWO, but this is not the case, thus in my opinion MWO is not a simulator. Sadly, it is just a FPS

[Sybreed]

CyclonerM, on 29 June 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Well, it would be possible to similarly fully simulate physics in MWO, but this is not the case, thus in my opinion MWO is not a simulator. Sadly, it is just a FPS

PGI had the opportunity to go a little bit more "hardcore" with MWO, but they decided to cater to the masses and the e-sport crowd and went with open customization/no recoil/bad heat/everything converge at the same spot

[Sandpit]

Sybreed, on 29 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

PGI had the opportunity to go a little bit more "hardcore" with MWO, but they decided to cater to the masses and the e-sport crowd and went with open customization/no recoil/bad heat/everything converge at the same spot

[Heffay]

I'm going to sell my Rear Admiral LTI package, with all the physical goodies. Just too much good money to be made on it now, and I can rebuy the Constellation and still play the game for free.

I suspect that I'll be all over the single player campaign, but the public universe is 2+ years out and I'm having my doubts about it now...

[Rebas Kradd]

Sybreed, on 29 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

PGI had the opportunity to go a little bit more "hardcore" with MWO, but they decided to cater to the masses and the e-sport crowd and went with open customization/no recoil/bad heat/everything converge at the same spot

The Clan packages would have been three times as expensive had PGI gone the hardcore route, owing to their total lack of cashflow due to the game being harder for new players than it already is. Sometimes catering to the masses is a good business decision. As much as a few folks would like a Star Trek: Voyager movie, there probably aren't enough people to make the money back.

They still have the opportunity to go more hardcore. I'm pushing for that next year.

[ShinVector]

Arrgghh.. MWO improved and now this:
https://robertsspace...-200-000-Online

Gonna have a fun weekend.

[N0MAD]

CyclonerM, on 24 June 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

For Kerensky.. Better for it to be a niche game than become and arcadish game to please the 12th years old children.

As long as it can live with less funding, of course..

Are you referring to a game where one of the more disputed features, 3PV. was introduced partly because a Devs 12 year old son couldnt get the hang of the game quickly after having experience with Lego games...?

[ztac]

What can I say , saw SC on kickstarter and thought yeah i'll give that a go then forgot about it.... by the time I remembered and bought a package for $40 there were over 200k people signed up!

The game itself is pretty much without limits , you can almost be anything you want there will be space and ground combat if you want it that way, or you can make things, trade smuggle , be a pirate amongst other things.

The game itself is being made using cryengine3 and looks gorgeous (and that's just the alpha) They also have crytek helping out and are actually modifying the engine to encompass everything they want to do. The project itself is on a huge scale without any publishers to get in the way or make demands , it is a direct pipe between backers and devs.
They actually had a competition for a community made ship .... those amateurs made some great looking ships!

For the early backers (that includes me at position 240k ish ) you get to experience and playtest the modules as they come out. Currently they are rolling out multiplayer dogfighting.

And its not just one game you will get , it is actually 2 games. One is in the persistent universe and one is a single player that you will be able to invite friends into to help you out (this is essentially a combat game where you are a fighter pilot on a carrier).
But how often do you get 2 AAA games for $40 (£25 when I bought mine)? All the ships in the starter packages will be available ingame for game money , so invest time and you will be able to buy any ship virtually.

There are also mini games like the dogfighting module and free flight which in effect are simulators in the game where you get to test out your ships before you take then out where they can be destroyed for real in the universe.

The micro transactions are really designed as a boost for players that don't have the time to put in and that is the funding model to keep the servers going. There is no sub model and like I said before anything you can buy for real cash you will be able to buy with ingame money.. so yeah I really am looking forward to this game! (it ticks all the boxes). Now where to get that Hornet! (fighter in the game).

I suppose the best advice is for people to get a lot of food and drink and then watch all the wingmans hangers.
That was a series of video blogs they made on the state of the game, interviews with various people involved , how they plan to do things etc etc . Wingmans hangar has been replaced now by a new show called something like 'around the verse' or something.

Edited by ztac, 05 July 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[Green Mamba]

Miss the Wingmans Hangars ..the new one is terribly boring

[ztac]

At least it still keeps you informed on one level , but Eric was kind of fun.. the new line up is well very conservative.

[Green Mamba]

ztac, on 05 July 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

At least it still keeps you informed on one level , but Eric was kind of fun.. the new line up is well very conservative.

Maybe we can get a "Bryan's MechBay" where we can be kept informed about the current state of MWO

[Alaskan Nobody]

Green Mamba, on 05 July 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Maybe we can get a "Bryan's MechBay" where we can be kept informed about the current state of MWO

We could start a "Paging Bryan" thread - which was actually suggested by Karl
(Or rather, he suggested we ask everyone else the questions about their jobs rather than asking him to ask them)

Edit: misspelled Bryan

Edited by Shar Wolf, 05 July 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[ztac]

Did you know SC is only in alpha right now (pre-alpha being precise).

I do sometimes wonder about the sheer scale of the game though. Interesting fact is that the code at the moment is at 12.4 GB!

Took me forever to D/L it on my snailnet!