1443 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

hammerreborn, on 09 July 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Whats the difference between having a bunch of private investors essentially doubling what is crowdfunded, and having a publisher? Seems like no matter what someones going to want to be sucking as much profit out of the system as possible, no matter what the costs to the players.

I won't be putting a cent towards SC until you can play something, like I did with MWO.

well, where you're wrong at the start is that SC will be completely crowdfunded, well at least more than 75% of it. Roberts was looking at 5-6 million from the kickstarter than 15-16 from investors. Now, it's actually 15-16 from crowd funding and no money from investors. If it keeps going like this, he'll be able to fund the entire game with crowdfunding, but I'm skeptical 20M is enough.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 09 July 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Know what's funny? I'm a huge BT fan - yet I've dropped an order of magnitude more money on SC than I have MWO and SC isn't even in alpha yet. For all the reasons listed. The MWO business model is based on trying to force people to pay for things they don't want but have to in order to get what they do. SC, conversely, just offers the best possible product and charges a fair price for it.

What are we forced to pay for? All 'mechs are free, barring some side-grade Hero variants. All weapons are free. Maps are free. Both game modes free. You can play as much as you want for free.

SC is trying to attract early adopters with nothing more than glitzy promo work, be it videos or developer interviews. They have no 'proof' of anything, nor a working product, necessitating more 'tantalizing' packages. Do you think they will never change this stance?

Funny, people said these sorts of things about MWO all those moons ago.

[Sephlock]

How many ships do you have and what rare ship do you have?

[hammerreborn]

Sybreed, on 09 July 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

well, where you're wrong at the start is that SC will be completely crowdfunded, well at least more than 75% of it. Roberts was looking at 5-6 million from the kickstarter than 15-16 from investors. Now, it's actually 15-16 from crowd funding and no money from investors. If it keeps going like this, he'll be able to fund the entire game with crowdfunding, but I'm skeptical 20M is enough.

You honestly think he's going to turn down 15-16 million from investors? And who you honestly think Chris Roberts is going to listen to? You, with your 150 dollar purchase or the dude who handed him 15 million?

I mean christ. You're simultaneously arguing that publishers is why PGI doesn't listen to us then go "BUT CHRIS WILL BE DIFFERENT HE'LL LISTEN TO US!!"

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 July 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Sybreed]

hammerreborn, on 09 July 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

You honestly think he's going to turn down 15-16 million from investors? And do you honestly think Chris Roberts is going to listen to? You, with your 150 dollar purchase or the dude who handed him 15 million?

huh? I don't get all the hostility. If you don't want to take my word for it, you can read this if you want:

https://robertsspace...w-Stretch-Goals

[Belorion]

MischiefSC, on 09 July 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Know what's funny? I'm a huge BT fan - yet I've dropped an order of magnitude more money on SC than I have MWO and SC isn't even in alpha yet. For all the reasons listed. The MWO business model is based on trying to force people to pay for things they don't want but have to in order to get what they do. SC, conversely, just offers the best possible product and charges a fair price for it.

MWO has the only BT option. They'd have my money regardless. The business model though motivates me to resist any sort of purchase - it's not voluntary it's obligatory. I pay bills because I have to but spend money on games because I want to. If it's a bill or an obligation I am inherently going to look for better deals. It prevents loyalty instead of engendering it.

I was under the impression that SC was going to be f2p, ergo a very similar business model. Where is the difference?

[hammerreborn]

Sybreed, on 09 July 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

huh? I don't get all the hostility. If you don't want to take my word for it, you can read this if you want:

https://robertsspace...w-Stretch-Goals

So they won't have investors IF YOU JUST GIVE HIM MORE MONEY! Until he can come up with even more stretch goals, because hey, new buildings are already on there, we need some freaking fountains.

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 July 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[Sybreed]

hammerreborn, on 09 July 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

So they won't have investors IF YOU JUST GIVE HIM MORE MONEY! Until he can come up with even more stretch goals, because hey, new buildings are already on there, we need some freaking fountains.

I don't really know why you're yelling at me, I only pledged during the initial campaign in October last year, you need to chill out dude

[KuruptU4Fun]

Sybreed, on 09 July 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

huh? I don't get all the hostility. If you don't want to take my word for it, you can read this if you want:

https://robertsspace...w-Stretch-Goals

That would work wonderfully, if things like rent electricity and payroll didn't have to be maintained. Standing on 20 mil only is going to go quickly, which is most likely why PGI has tried to push sales so much...

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 09 July 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[Appogee]

LOL. We are in that blissful honeymoon period with Star Commander, where CRI have made big claims about what they're going to do, but haven't released anything for us to play, thereby avoiding even the potential to disappoint us.

Unlike MWO, where we are in the delta between the big claims PGI made 18 months ago, and the reality of the actual game and its various design disappointments disappointments (3PV, boating of pinpoint alphas, not enough maps).

People that are ploughing thousand of dollars into Star Commander are supreme optimists or fools. They will inevitably get disappointed by game design decisions, and coding tradeoffs, that are forced on Chris Roberts' vision of the game, during the actual coding. This is the nature of gaming development projects.

Don't get me wrong. I want SC to succeed too. I bought in with one Veteran's package. But that's all I will spend til I actually see the alpha.

[hammerreborn]

Sybreed, on 09 July 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I don't really know why you're yelling at me, I only pledged during the initial campaign in October last year, you need to chill out dude

Nothing I've said is directed at you. Just the situation in general.

Sorry, maybe its the cynic in me, but SC just screams snake oil saleman. I mean, he started with a 2 million goal, and now he's upped it to 21 million? What changed the costs? Other than the knowledge that he could bleed people dry.

Like I said, I hope the best, but I'm keeping my wallet far away from that until there's something to actually play.

[MischiefSC]

Arrachtas, on 09 July 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

What are we forced to pay for? All 'mechs are free, barring some side-grade Hero variants. All weapons are free. Maps are free. Both game modes free. You can play as much as you want for free.

SC is trying to attract early adopters with nothing more than glitzy promo work, be it videos or developer interviews. They have no 'proof' of anything, nor a working product, necessitating more 'tantalizing' packages. Do you think they will never change this stance?

Funny, people said these sorts of things about MWO all those moons ago.

Here's the difference. SC doesn't do early releases or anything 'extra' for cash only. Cash buys you in game currency. That's it.

Also it has single player, supports modding, etc. You buy the game and you own it. Do with it what you will.

MWO, conversely, makes money by selling things you can't get any other way. If you want them you pay extra. The Phoenix Package for example. Want the Battlemaster? Wait an extra 4 months or buy the Locust, Shadowhawk and Thunderbolt too.

Can I wait 4 months? Sure. The difference is that SC doesn't require that.

By the way I do not expect them to change that model - cash buys you in game currency on the persistent universe. There will almost certainly be larger DLC available down the road for people who never even get on the PU. The difference is that you get the game and you play it how you want.

Which, largely, is perception. MWO offers some good deals for the money and for a F2P game does a great job of balancing pay for convenience vs pay to win. The Battlemaster Phoenix package is a stellar deal - 12 mechs, 12 bays, 4 of them specialized Champion mechs plus several months worth of Premium time all for $80.

The difference though is method of salesmanship. Both are getting money, the difference is how you get people to give it to you. One shows you a product and sells it based on features, advantages and the benefits. The other says that you've got to pay for certain stuff or either wait, or possibly go without. Given that the new content for sale literally is the only new or changing experience the game has to offer it's a bit of a hostage approach to sales.

It's the approach. Which is why SC is probably going to raise $15 million in donations by the time it goes to alpha. Worth considering.

[hammerreborn]

Why are there two of these threads?

[hammerreborn]

MischiefSC, on 09 July 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Can I wait 4 months? Sure. The difference is that SC doesn't require that.

WTF am I reading? You mean all those ships that you get for pledging are actually a lie and don't exist at all? Because you just bought ships at each tier you know...2 years early...

The founders packages are the only way to get into the alpha and beta as well, something that's not required for MWO. Not to mention that in the earliest package you don't even get alpha access.

Then there's the fact that Pheonix packages gives you all the benefits of the earlier tiers, while the SC packages don't...

It's the same damn thing. Want the battlemaster, pay 80. Want the Orion 300i? Pay 65.

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 July 2013 - 10:02 PM.

[Tezcatli]

I wanna wade in here about how fan boyish some people are being. But honestly. One is actively being played by the playerbase. And the other is just some videos and promises.

It's not fair to compare the two and go on and on about how much one is better then the other. Especially when one is not playable yet.

Considering how much this has turned into a debate comparing the two. I don't think this thread belongs in the gameplay balance forum.

Edited by Tezcatli, 09 July 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[Sephlock]

hammerreborn, on 09 July 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

The founders packages are the only way to get into the alpha and beta as well, something that's not required for MWO.

Anymore . Well, I guess it wasn't technically REQUIRED since people did get in without paying also...

[MischiefSC]

hammerreborn, on 09 July 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

WTF am I reading? You mean all those ships that you get for pledging are actually a lie and don't exist at all? Because you just bought ships at each tier you know...2 years early...

The founders packages are the only way to get into the alpha and beta as well, something that's not required for MWO. Not to mention that in the earliest package you don't even get alpha access.

Then there's the fact that Pheonix packages gives you all the benefits of the earlier tiers, while the SC packages don't...

It's the same damn thing. Want the battlemaster, pay 80. Want the Orion 300i? Pay 65.

Go back and re-read what I wrote.

It's not about the value for the product, as I said in concept things like the Phoenix Package are a great deal. The difference is that SCs going to offer single player, modding and private servers. Also, again - huge difference between cash for in game currency and cash for paint/hero mechs/early access.

The money I've given to SC is about paying into something I really, really want to see built. I'll probably never play on the PU, not my thing.

The big difference though is that once I buy SC I get the whole game, to play however I want. If I want to play on the Persistent Universe I can spend cash to get in game currency faster. That's it. Everything anyone has anyone else can get in game.

The difference is that my only options for a battletech title is MWO, that's a MP arena style game. My only options in MWO for a lot of things is to pay cash up front. Some things everyone can have right now only if they pay, otherwise you've got to wait. With SC you're paying for alpha/beta access, that's absolutely true. In fact you've got buy the game up front to play it. Once you do however you get absolutely anything and everything that anyone else can or will ever get.

Does that make sense? I'm the first one to say that it's largely perception - the psychology of sales is my thing, made a living off of it for a lot of years. Perception though pretty much IS everything. It's not just what you sell but how you sell it.

If you don't see the difference then, well, great for you I guess? I would be more likely to assume however that you do see the difference but you're invested in MWO vs SC and are going to interpret data that way.

[Loc Nar]

My cockpit was built dual purpose from day one.... see ya in the verse!

[Rasako]

KuruptU4Fun, on 09 July 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Gearbox Software (AKA COLONIAL MARINES) has that IP now.

fixed that for you

[Rasako]

MischiefSC, on 09 July 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Go back and re-read what I wrote.

It's not about the value for the product, as I said in concept things like the Phoenix Package are a great deal. The difference is that SCs going to offer single player, modding and private servers. Also, again - huge difference between cash for in game currency and cash for paint/hero mechs/early access.

The money I've given to SC is about paying into something I really, really want to see built. I'll probably never play on the PU, not my thing.

The big difference though is that once I buy SC I get the whole game, to play however I want. If I want to play on the Persistent Universe I can spend cash to get in game currency faster. That's it. Everything anyone has anyone else can get in game.

The difference is that my only options for a battletech title is MWO, that's a MP arena style game. My only options in MWO for a lot of things is to pay cash up front. Some things everyone can have right now only if they pay, otherwise you've got to wait. With SC you're paying for alpha/beta access, that's absolutely true. In fact you've got buy the game up front to play it. Once you do however you get absolutely anything and everything that anyone else can or will ever get.

Does that make sense? I'm the first one to say that it's largely perception - the psychology of sales is my thing, made a living off of it for a lot of years. Perception though pretty much IS everything. It's not just what you sell but how you sell it.

If you don't see the difference then, well, great for you I guess? I would be more likely to assume however that you do see the difference but you're invested in MWO vs SC and are going to interpret data that way.

you'll find that modding and those types of development tools being open to the public kills games pretty quickly, see torchlight 2 for a good example. hacking and cheating/exploitation of the tools will be rampant. and if you think any online requirements will keep that from happening, take a look at Diablo 3. Blizzard requires an always online experience yet still can't keep hacks/cheats/explots/bots out of their game

Edited by Rasako, 09 July 2013 - 10:33 PM.