64 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

Flaming oblivion, on 06 May 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

I tag when I have to I rarely hit under 200 damage up to 800 depending on the team , If the opponents have 2+ ecm I write the game off as a loss till they fix it . If my team loses 4 people before most of the teams even positioned I consider its a loss. A missile boat that walks out to tag against any smart team that's sticking together is a dead missile boat more so if they have more then one ecm, BEcause by the time you can lock never mind fire you've took massive damage . ECM is overpowered I will not accept any argument on this point and my builds fine . ble 1s 3 ml tag , 2 lrm 15 , 2 lrm 10 , BAP , arty , xl300 , max armour , ammo , dhs endo

So, in reality, you're not wanting to discuss W/L or K/D but rather say that your stats are directly impacted by a team's ability to field ECM and you prepping for a loss because of it? That's weak and explains your poor stats.

On the topic of KDR, a lot of that has to do with play style and efficiency level. Most of my mechs have KDRs around 1.8 but most of them hovered around 1, some below that, as I was grinding through the levels. It is really really hard to be badass with a mech when you are lagging behind in how quick and, well, efficient you are in fighting. Furthermore, some mechs are simply hard to get a high ELO in because of build choice and or simply mech choice. If you PUG in, say, an Atlas, you can't really expect a massive KDR because your mech is essentially a neon "kill me" sign with guns. Other mechs have the benefit of broken hit boxex. And, finally to something I eluded to earlier, builds specs impact your KDR. SRMs have always been kind of iffy so even when you hit you may not hit. Combine that with hit box issues and, well, yeah... you're not going to get the kills that you normally would. In summary, KDR is essentially a factor based on timing, speed, and the appropriate weaponry with a massive dose of luck.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 06 May 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Sparks Murphey, on 06 May 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Ultimately, if you are PUGging, your W/L ratio is only 1/24th your W/L ratio. Any of the other eleven guys on your team could be terrible, and any of the other twelve guys on the other team could be brilliant (or the other way around). Statistically, it means that you need to add 23 to either side of the equation to produce that range where your contribution to that 0.87 W/L ratio lies. That means that, with your games so far, you are somewhere between [91 wins/78 losses] = 1.17 WLR (if your team has consistently and utterly betrayed you, and your opponents were always much, much better than you) and [68 wins/101 losses] = 0.67 WLR (if your team have always been brilliant, and your opponents have consistently been terrible).

As you play more and more games, the addition of 23 to either side will slowly be a lesser influence, and you'll have a number more closely reflecting your true skill. For now, you've got 6 games (149/23) under your belt that, statistically speaking, you determined the outcome of.

Your grasp of statistics is highly dubious. The math you describe does not work with ELO. The only way to get a truly accurate picture of what you are describing would require a more complex model that we probably don't have sufficient data to produce.

[Screech]

Bilbo, on 06 May 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

A KDR above 1 is not at all necessary for a positive W/L. This is also from a PUG perspective.

I did say EXPECT to have a positive W/L. I did say it is possible but not expected.

[Eddrick]

Here's what I got.

Catapult-K2 W/L ratio 2.0 worst K/D ratio. Focused damage on few targets.
Trial Stalker W/L ratio 1.0 best K/D ratio. Spead damage on multiple targets.

For my Catapult-K2. It paints a very differant story then the OP.

[Almond Brown]

Mycrus, on 06 May 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

After they archived stats I started caring even less..

Yah, a lot of stat whores feel that way.

[WarHippy]

Flaming oblivion, on 05 May 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Ok so I've found my spot which is a assault missile platform it seems to be where I perform best for now , But I appear to be doing something wrong......

My stats aren't great but judging by the fact I have only played a moth I don't see them as terrible.

So my blr-1 as it currently stands statistically

149 matches played
68 wins 78 losses-0.87
111 kills 101 deaths - 1.10
damage done - 41,084

I've definitely improved my performance compared to how I was doing with my orion , But still i'm finding my w/l and k/d telling two different stories, I always try to do the best I can to contribute as much as I can without putting my self in a position where I die in a blaze of epic failure. Don't know what else I can do.

You will get better as you learn to position better, learn the maps better, and learn when to fire so that more of your missiles make contact with your target. Just keep working at it and learn from your mistakes and learn from the players around you that have learned to overcome things like ECM that you are struggling with. For me I have had little problems with dealing with ECM and I don't even have TAG on my Battlemaster-1s and my stats are at the very least respectable. 52W/35L for a roughly 1.5 w/l ratio, my K/D is 112K/52D for a ratio of 2.15, and my damage done 53,434 over the course of those 88 matches averaging out to 607.2 damage per game with the Battlemaster. You will get there just give it time.

[Gyrok]

Flaming oblivion, on 05 May 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Ok so I've found my spot which is a assault missile platform it seems to be where I perform best for now , But I appear to be doing something wrong......

My stats aren't great but judging by the fact I have only played a moth I don't see them as terrible.

So my blr-1 as it currently stands statistically

149 matches played
68 wins 78 losses-0.87
111 kills 101 deaths - 1.10
damage done - 41,084

I've definitely improved my performance compared to how I was doing with my orion , But still i'm finding my w/l and k/d telling two different stories, I always try to do the best I can to contribute as much as I can without putting my self in a position where I die in a blaze of epic failure. Don't know what else I can do.

KDR is the most useless metric in this game, you should be less concerned about weakened targets and getting kills and more concerned about priority targets. You may not be looking for easy kills as it stands, but prioritize targets in a manner that it contributes to winning. For example: Assaults are most important, followed by heavies, mediums and as a missile boat, lights should be last priority because you will be least effective.

You cannot control W/L directly, but indirectly, you can contribute to a better chance of winning. THAT is what your mindset should be. How do you benefit the team? By doing the most you can to help them win. Does that mean killing mechs? Sure, you will get kills...but KDR is not something that means much to people who know how to play team games. Over time, your KDR will improve as your skill level increases and it will take care of itself. Currently, my W/L is sitting @ 1.5-1.6, and I know others whose W/L sits about the same or perhaps a tad higher.

[Flaming oblivion]

Yeah you know I tend to attack the first dude I see ,If I think he's alone ... or I have backup, perhaps that's a mistake , The only time I've deviated from this course is if I've seen a friendly taking fire I'll attempt to help him , Perhaps gunning for the threats is wise.

[zazz0000]

My favorite stat for gauging performance is Death/Win. Just subtract your total Losses from your total Deaths, and then divide the difference by Wins.

People who can win a game AND live (and hopefully do some killin' in the process) are the most impressive players.

[Koniks]

Flaming oblivion, on 06 May 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

my builds fine . ble 1s 3 ml tag , 2 lrm 15 , 2 lrm 10 , BAP , arty , xl300 , max armour , ammo , dhs endo

Your build is slow. That's why you're having a disproportionately small impact on matches. Slow LRM boats only work well when about half the team is oriented to work with them. Something like 3 boats, 2 escorts, and 1 spotter. It's luck of the draw whether you get that in PUG play.

If you play like a skirmisher going close to 80kph, rather than long range artillery going 62kph, you'll be more able to dictate the terms of engagement.

Try bumping up to an XL375. You can do that a couple ways.
1) 2xALRM15+2xALRM5, 7 tons of LRM ammo, and 4xDHS. For the first half of the match, you'll want to either stay just behind the main blob, 300-600m from the enemy front line. Or go find their flank. When you have no more missiles left and the remainder are softened up, clean up with MLs.

I mostly used this build to place in the top 15 of Marik during the faction challenge.

2) 2xALRM15+2xSSRM2, 7 tons of LRM ammo, 2 tons of SSRM ammo, and 5xDHS. You're a front line mech but your optimal range is 180-270m where you can use your full loadout.

Both builds have TAG, 3xML, and BAP.

Edited by Mizeur, 06 May 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[zhajin]

as has been said w/l is really a crap shoot for solo puging. which is ironic because its the only stat PGI sees the need to use for your skill rating. to a lesser extent same really goes for k/d since its only the last point of damage that matters.

you really need a much bigger sample size before the randomness of the game can be factored out. as in like 10,000s of games...

the best gauge you have for your personal success is xp per match, both overall and by variant. Its the best PGI gives us, but it is tainted by bonuses (premium, first win double, etc).

Edited by zhajin, 06 May 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Kilo 40, on 06 May 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

w/l is completely out of your hands. and for PUG matches I think it should always hover close to 50-50.

personally I like a nice k/d ratio, but at the end of the day, who cares? play and have fun. why care about artificial stats?

That's not true. In some drops, sure, everyone Yolo's into death. In the majority of matches though, pugs will follow if someone will lead. There's a surprising number of pugs (surprising compared to 6+ months ago) that simply require guidance. Look at the contents of your team - is there a DDC? And a kintaro 18? Find out of that kto-18 is running streaks, then have him hang with the atlas to protect against lights. A few LRM boats, and a brawler DDC? Have them stick together! Ask the lights to find and report enemy positions. Lay the groundwork for communication. Tried this yesterday - both the kto and atlas thanked me in chat, as 3 minutes in the atlas was swarmed in the backfield (he didn't keep up...) and the kto saved his bacon. And we won, with no premades. Against at least one premade (4 mavs in one lance on the enemy team, 3 steiners in one lance on the other team.. maybe 2 premades). It was a 12-2 roll, and several people on my team stuck around post-drop to discuss the drop, and 2 players friended me afterwards. Don't get too stats obsessed or blame a team. It's up to every member of a team to work with their teammates.

To the OP - at one month in, you appear to be doing ok if you're solo with LRMS. If you can, get with a team or at least on comms (There's NGNG teamspeak, comstar teamspeak, even my own clan welcomes visitors - wbhmercs.com). Don't worry about stats - in fact, close the stats page and play for at least 100 drops before looking again. Go out, have fun, and learn what works for you. Personally, I won't run an LRM boat when pugging - I'll boat in a 4man or 12man, but when pugging I'm more likely to take a stalker with 5 lrm5 2LL and 2ML, so I can wear the enemy down while closing to laser engagement range. Go out, have fun, and feel free to shoot me a friend invite! My preferred role on the battlefield is spotting for LRM boats (running under-armed is exciting!), playing the role of LRM social worker (finding those poor missiles good homes!).

Edited by Fierostetz, 06 May 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Don't listen to Fiero. He's named after a terrible death trap of a car that looked really cool and runs a pure Firestarter with nothing BUT flamers. He's a bad bad person

392 damage with nothing but flamers - oh the horror!

[Flaming oblivion]

Mizeur, on 06 May 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

Your build is slow. That's why you're having a disproportionately small impact on matches. Slow LRM boats only work well when about half the team is oriented to work with them. Something like 3 boats, 2 escorts, and 1 spotter. It's luck of the draw whether you get that in PUG play.

If you play like a skirmisher going close to 80kph, rather than long range artillery going 62kph, you'll be more able to dictate the terms of engagement.

Try bumping up to an XL375. You can do that a couple ways.
1) 2xALRM15+2xALRM5, 7 tons of LRM ammo, and 4xDHS. For the first half of the match, you'll want to either stay just behind the main blob, 300-600m from the enemy front line. Or go find their flank. When you have no more missiles left and the remainder are softened up, clean up with MLs.

I mostly used this build to place in the top 15 of Marik during the faction challenge.

2) 2xALRM15+2xSSRM2, 7 tons of LRM ammo, 2 tons of SSRM ammo, and 5xDHS. You're a front line mech but your optimal range is 180-270m where you can use your full loadout.

Both builds have TAG, 3xML, and BAP.

I hear what your saying and I do find the speed a issue sometimes , However I'm not prepared to sacrifice what i'd have to , to get from xl 330 to xl375 , I feel like I'd be losing a lot of ammo and probably have to cut armour to pull it off for whoops not 16 kph 11kph , The speed isn't generally the reason I'm killed, And 61kph isn't that slow for a assault. FYI i'm not elited yet so 71.5 kph with a xl375 without tweak , as opposed to 62.9 with my xl 330 , 7 tonnes for near as makes no difference 9 kph , seems steep.

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 06 May 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

K/D : You either focus more on killing mechs than objectives, run in groups, or are abused by ELO to carry your team.

W/L: You either run in mostly groups, run mech loadouts to solely play objectives, or won the ELO lottery.


Thats about it. Stats are mostly irrelevant in this game and anyone who tells you otherwise is full of ****.

[Ultimax]

Flaming oblivion, on 06 May 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

I tag when I have to I rarely hit under 200 damage up to 800 depending on the team , If the opponents have 2+ ecm I write the game off as a loss till they fix it . If my team loses 4 people before most of the teams even positioned I consider its a loss. A missile boat that walks out to tag against any smart team that's sticking together is a dead missile boat more so if they have more then one ecm, BEcause by the time you can lock never mind fire you've took massive damage . ECM is overpowered I will not accept any argument on this point and my builds fine . ble 1s 3 ml tag , 2 lrm 15 , 2 lrm 10 , BAP , arty , xl300 , max armour , ammo , dhs endo

OK since you're asking for what you can do different.

You and I were actually on the same team at one point this weekend.

At the start you made a point of it to tell the entire team that they should go get locks for you, or that you would do something like rush out and die and they would lose one of their assaults. This doesn't really inspire confidence in your team mates.

You need to adjust your strategy, getting your own locks when possible will increase the damage you inflict and make that damage more meaningful (visual locks result in more torso hits) - especially with Tag.


Second you are putting too many eggs into one basket with all of those LRMs imo - which is tough to do in PUG matches with no one to coordinate with.



In that match I spoke of earlier, when it came to close quarters you were firing your MLAS at opponents that were 150m away from you - but not actually shooting you (they were focused on other targets).

All you had to do was back up 30m or so and unload LRMs (you still had 400+ Ammo).


Those very short range payloads would have wreaked havoc on the enemy.


All of us have room for improvement so this isn't an attack on you, I constantly analyze and try new build directions nightly to improve my play and reduce mistakes I've made, etc.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 May 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Koniks]

Flaming oblivion, on 06 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I hear what your saying and I do find the speed a issue sometimes , However I'm not prepared to sacrifice what i'd have to , to get from xl 330 to xl375 , I feel like I'd be losing a lot of ammo and probably have to cut armour to pull it off for whoops not 16 kph 11kph , The speed isn't generally the reason I'm killed, And 61kph isn't that slow for a assault. FYI i'm not elited yet so 71.5 kph with a xl375 without tweak , as opposed to 62.9 with my xl 330 , 7 tonnes for near as makes no difference 9 kph , seems steep.

+9kph is a significant improvement in being able to determine range. Especially at the lower end. Getting to 71kph is a 15% increase in speed before factoring in elite efficiencies.

If you're firing your missiles both without line of sight and from more than 600m out, then your accuracy with them is low. Probably between 30-35%. You can hit with more missiles (at least 40%) and require less ammo if you skirmish with them instead. And if you're using artemis, more of them will hit the center torso, improving the usefulness of that damage.

Here's a rough ALRM40 build.

1260 missiles at 40% accuracy gets you 555 damage before accounting for your lasers. With Artemis and line of sight, more of those missiles will hit the center torso, improving the effectiveness of that damage, too.

ETA PUG stats:
In 98 matches post-stat reset, with that build on an elited mech I have a 58-37 record, 1.57 W/L, 135 kills - 58 deaths, 2.33 K/D, 1.38 kills per game, .6 deaths per game, and averaging 536 damage per game.

Running mostly ALRM30+2xStreaks build on the ON1-VA, 70-62 (1.13 W/L), 194 kills - 72 deaths, 2.69 K/D (it was above 3 before I started testing SRMs last week), 1.47 kills per game, .55 deaths per game, and averaging 522 damage per game.

Edited by Mizeur, 06 May 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Zervziel]

Eh, i typically ignore both as they aren't accurate for me anyway because there was a long ass time where I'd join a game, get in and get started only for my internet to drop suddenly, leaving me a nice fat target.

[Aresye]

Your KDR doesn't jump to higher numbers because you suddenly become a better player. Your KDR jumps up because:

Quote

K/D : You either focus more on killing mechs than objectives, run in groups, or are abused by ELO to carry your team.

A: All of the Above



I'll tell you what happens that gives you a big jump in KDR: Kill Stealing

Now, I absolutely DESPISED kill stealing originally, but I started to notice something. Originally if I saw an enemy mech that had a crit torso that's already being focused by a teammate or 2, I'd turn my attention towards the fresher mechs and let them have their kill.

But oh too often they don't get their kill, or it takes some absurd amount of time.

You see this happen all the time with light mechs that are hurt. Everybody and their mother starts chasing after it. Meanwhile the 3-4 other players are getting annihilated by the enemy team, and your team won't come help until that light mech is dead.

Forget about kill stealing. If you've got the accuracy and the firepower to end a fight, take it. If your team is chasing a light and you're a good shot against lights? For the love of god just put down the light, otherwise your team is going to chase it for 5min.

[Flaming oblivion]

Ultimatum X, on 06 May 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

OK since you're asking for what you can do different.

You and I were actually on the same team at one point this weekend.

At the start you made a point of it to tell the entire team that they should go get locks for you, or that you would do something like rush out and die and they would lose one of their assaults. This doesn't really inspire confidence in your team mates.

You need to adjust your strategy, getting your own locks when possible will increase the damage you inflict and make that damage more meaningful (visual locks result in more torso hits) - especially with Tag.


Second you are putting too many eggs into one basket with all of those LRMs imo - which is tough to do in PUG matches with no one to coordinate with. And I thought the min range on lrms was 200m , Perhaps your right but I had tried it before at that range , I guess I'm just guilty of over thinking, I know one mistake at that range will kill me against most brawlers on a lrm boat , And when I launch my lrms I tend to attack a lot of attention if i'm in the open, which is when I make mistakes under pressure.



In that match I spoke of earlier, when it came to close quarters you were firing your MLAS at opponents that were 150m away from you - but not actually shooting you (they were focused on other targets).

All you had to do was back up 30m or so and unload LRMs (you still had 400+ Ammo).


Those very short range payloads would have wreaked havoc on the enemy.


All of us have room for improvement so this isn't an attack on you, I constantly analyze and try new build directions nightly to improve my play and reduce mistakes I've made, etc.

Ok sometimes i'm a ****** everyone knows it including me , But when you repeatedly get games where no one uses the R key and theres no ecm on the other team. Just because they don't need locks it gets old. so I have to get into line of sight to get a lock . and either get bounced on by a wolf pack when they see a missile boat with $$ signs in there eyes, or get bounced on by a lance of assaults, of course the team that's sat there looking after there own interests not getting locks doesn't help you, to interested in there own damage and kills. And then naturally when you lose your the noob. you take so much of that repeatedly and you snap, But I was wrongf, sorry . I frequently get frustrated and turn into a ass hat. I'm not perfect I accept it.

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 06 May 2014 - 12:46 PM.