90 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Gigastrike, on 06 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Well the problem with your first point is that you're assuming that the Adder is gonna try to run around you and shoot you in the back at super close range with its ER PPCs the same way a Jenner would with its medium lasers.

The problem with your second point is that a small silhouette will make them very difficult to hit at long range unless you're standing in the same spot a lot. A good fire-support pilot always shifts locations, especially ones piloting fast mechs. I would know, I've been playing a 100 kph dual ER PPC Jenner to test it. The mech plays ok as long as you know what you're doing, and the Adder is only going to perform better in every way.

Ummm no if they are in the fire support role, i will do the same thing I am doing now. Straffing run, by the time the Mediums turn around or anything else targets me I am already gone. Unless of course the giant dorrito chip gives me away because someone seems me coming. I to play a 2 PPC Jenner on my D variant but at 124 KPH. Even hanging with the big guys they are quick to fall, we just can't handle the brawl once people see us. At least the D has the chance to escape with speed I do not see the clan mechs having that option. Not saying they are not going to do damage before they go down. I can just see them being the first targeted and they will be.

ECM PPC'ers are not counted in this... do any of the clan lights have ECM? Did not notice

Edited by Darian DelFord, 06 May 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[FupDup]

Darian DelFord, on 06 May 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

ECM PPC'ers are not counted in this... do any of the clan lights have ECM? Did not notice

The Kit Fox has the *potential* to carry ECM due to its Alternate C variant. If PGI lets us have that variant or its omnipods is still a mystery though. The Fox will pretty much need ECM to not be outright inferior to the Adder (and Stormcrow...).

[IraqiWalker]

Darian DelFord, on 06 May 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

OP

The biggest misconception is that these lights are scouts. They are not, the Adder is a fire support light, it has armor and firepower that is equivalent to an IS medium or heavy. Yeah, they won't be able to match IS lights in speed, but that's because these mechs weren't built for it. a Fire moth is a scout mech (162 Kph, 216Kph with MASC), the Adder and Uller are designed to kill things from long range, and to match IS mediums and heavies on the field.

So in all honesty, they might be called "lights" but they're not. Especially when they can pack multiple ERPPCs, ERLLs, or other frightening weaponry like that.

Also, as a light mech, you might not be afraid of a light that packs 2ERPPCs, but you will be afraid of a light that packs 5SSRM6s (each SSRM6 weighs 3 tons). that's a whopping 30 streak missiles in one salvo, ghost heat or not. They will kill your light if you get within 300 meters of them (they might have longer range btw)

Same problem will happen when that light is running around with 2 LRM20s raining hell on people at 97Kph (106 with speed tweak, maybe more) or a bunch of LB-5Xs switched to solid slug fire mode instead of scatter shot.*

Basically, they will be awful scouts, but they will be great once the fight starts.

Even kiting them can be a huge problem when they have multiple ERPPCs (clans don't have regular PPCs) or ERLLs (heck their ERMLs are about the same range values as IS LLs) or ERMLs. The higher than average armor values for them will allow them to survive much longer once people start smacking them.

*:Yes, Clan LBXs will have alt. fire mode.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 May 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Silentium]

It will certainly be a new paradigm, and I am looking forward to the challenge.

[FupDup]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

The biggest misconception is that these lights are scouts. They are not, the Adder is a fire support light, it has armor and firepower that is equivalent to an IS medium or heavy. ...

The Adder has identical armor as every single 35 ton mech. It cannot mount the armor of a medium or heavy by virtue of the construction system.

Also, in terms of firepower, a well-built IS medium can get pretty close to their payload or surpass it sometimes, while retaining dramatically better armor and nearly equal or greater speed. The Ryoken in particular has identical speed as the Puma and Uller, while having much more armor and quite a bit more pod space.

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Also, as a light mech, you might not be afraid of a light that packs 2ERPPCs, but you will be afraid of a light that packs 5SSRM6s (each SSRM6 weighs 3 tons). that's a whopping 30 streak missiles in one salvo, ghost heat or not. They will kill your light if you get within 300 meters of them (they might have longer range btw)

Both Clan lights have 16 tons of pod space. 5 x SSRM6 weighs 15 tons. You get 1 ton for ammo and you can't mount an active probe (Clan BAP).

[Khobai]

so dont play clan lights, dont buy clan lights, and eventually PGI will have to fix it.

Quote

The biggest misconception is that these lights are scouts

neither is a commando. or a jenner. but they go 150+. being a scout has nothing to do with going fast in MWO. the reality is these slow clan lights will be dead on arrival.

Edited by Khobai, 06 May 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Maybe clan lights will have 360 degree torso twist? and maybe lots of agility to make up for the fixed engine size? I'd be OK with that, both piloting and fighting them.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The only ones that should be worried about "slow" lights are those with high ping. A clan light is basically my dragon.

[Darian DelFord]

Khobai, on 06 May 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

so dont play clan lights, dont buy clan lights, and eventually PGI will have to fix it.



neither is a commando. or a jenner. but they go 150+. being a scout has nothing to do with going fast in MWO. the reality is these slow clan lights will be dead on arrival.

at least someone else agrees on this point. PUGs seem to think if your 35 tons or less your a scout mech and whine when you do not. My interpretation unless you have ECM you are not a scout

The only light that I fear no matter their armament is a streak light ie oxide. Now if a clan light can mount that many or more then yes I will stay away. However I just can't get over the speed. With Hit registration being continually worked on I just do not see how they are going to survive. A jenner can even take on IS mediums with equivalent payloads as the Clan Lights and still come out on top simple due to speed.

[IraqiWalker]

FupDup, on 06 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

The Adder has identical armor as every single 35 ton mech. It cannot mount the armor of a medium or heavy by virtue of the construction system.

Also, in terms of firepower, a well-built IS medium can get pretty close to their payload or surpass it sometimes, while retaining dramatically better armor and nearly equal or greater speed. The Ryoken in particular has identical speed as the Puma and Uller, while having much more armor and quite a bit more pod space.

Yeah, and with 3/3/3/3, or weight restrictions which one do you think is going to be more effective? a 35 ton mech that can match mechs almost double it's weight, while still freeing up more weight for bigger mechs, or a big mech that will need more room?

FupDup, on 06 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Both Clan lights have 16 tons of pod space. 5 x SSRM6 weighs 15 tons. You get 1 ton for ammo and you can't mount an active probe (Clan BAP).

That was more of an exaggerated example, but the point still stands, they'll have more guns than a mech their size should.

Khobai, on 06 May 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

neither is a commando. or a jenner. but they go 150+. being a scout has nothing to do with going fast in MWO. the reality is these slow clan lights will be dead on arrival.

The commando is the quintessential scout mech. It doesn't get scoutier than that. Slim frame, light weight with high speed.

It's not the tonnage that dictates whether you're a scout or not. It's the frame, speed, mobility, ability to traverse terrain, and being hard to detect (which is why Jenners are bad scouts, considering their size and lack of ECM, they're mobile, but they are easy to spot).

Darian DelFord, on 06 May 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

at least someone else agrees on this point. PUGs seem to think if your 35 tons or less your a scout mech and whine when you do not. My interpretation unless you have ECM you are not a scout

The only light that I fear no matter their armament is a streak light ie oxide. Now if a clan light can mount that many or more then yes I will stay away. However I just can't get over the speed. With Hit registration being continually worked on I just do not see how they are going to survive. A jenner can even take on IS mediums with equivalent payloads as the Clan Lights and still come out on top simple due to speed.

They will be able to mount SSRM2,4, and 6. So yeah, don't get within range of them.

[FupDup]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

Yeah, and with 3/3/3/3, or weight restrictions which one do you think is going to be more effective? a 35 ton mech that can match mechs almost double it's weight, while still freeing up more weight for bigger mechs, or a big mech that will need more room?

3/3/3/3 and the like are artificial and arbitrary constructs. They are not truly a measure of a mech's effectiveness. On a 1-to-1 basis, certain mechs still remain more effective than others of different classes.

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

That was more of an exaggerated example, but the point still stands, they'll have more guns than a mech their size should.

Or I could just pilot a Stormcrow to get the same speed with more guns and more armor. Heck, I'd bet my Inner Sphere Shadow Hawk against a Clan light any day of the week, and that's not even counting SSRM launchers on my Shad.



All of this being said, I do certainly plan on trying at least one of the Clan lights, but I have no illusions about them being competitive or not.

[Ngamok]

Lostdragon, on 06 May 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

This has been discussed a good bit previously and most light players are pretty concerned about it. You also cannot redistribute armor on clan mechs as far as I know. I'm hoping PGI has some kind of plan to make them competitive, but if you are interested in playing light mechs primarily I'd hold off on buying any of the clan packs until we see how they actually perform.

I think they said they would let us redistribute the armor.

[IraqiWalker]

FupDup, on 06 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

3/3/3/3 and the like are artificial and arbitrary constructs. They are not truly a measure of a mech's effectiveness. On a 1-to-1 basis, certain mechs still remain more effective than others of different classes.

Artificial or not, they are there, and they should be considered. End of the day one team will have 6 mediums (basically), 3 heavies and 3 assaults

while the other will have 3 of each class.

Make no mistake, I do not under-estimate lights, my COM-2D still outstrips most of my mediums, and all my heavies in combat effectiveness, I've been piloting lights since day 1 of playing this game.

FupDup, on 06 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Or I could just pilot a Stormcrow to get the same speed with more guns and more armor.

I agree, but the weight and class restrictions are still a limiting factor. 1-1 is nice, but this game is not 1-1 it's 12v12, and in the landscape of a team, the clan mechs will absolutely have a spot. competitive light mechs like the JR7-F with 6 MLs, will have a hard time getting into range when an adder is running escort. On the other hand a 2PPC Jenner, will be able to kite the hell out of the clan lights, and stands equal to them, if not better considering it can still mount JJs (don't think the adder variants will have JJs)

[Ngamok]

Mcgral18, on 06 May 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

They've stated you can indeed redistribute the armor, so we can frontload to our hearts content. Adding new armor, I'm not too sure.


Well, the adder will be able to 2 shot a jenners CT (if it isn't completely frontloaded) so...overwhelming firepower might be enough to make up for being slow. They'll be played more like slow meds than IS lights.

We'll see how it turns out. They'll run hot though, we know that.

I bought the Thor package so I am getting a Kit Fox(s) / Uller(s). Pretty much on the Prime, I plan to snipe with the ER Large and brawl with the LB-X 5, SSRM4, and SPL. Hopefully I can pull it off. I didn't buy a bigger package so not getting the Adder / Puma. Stormcrow will have to wait till June ala carte.

[FupDup]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Artificial or not, they are there, and they should be considered. End of the day one team will have 6 mediums (basically), 3 heavies and 3 assaults

while the other will have 3 of each class.

Make no mistake, I do not under-estimate lights, my COM-2D still outstrips most of my mediums, and all my heavies in combat effectiveness, I've been piloting lights since day 1 of playing this game.



I agree, but the weight and class restrictions are still a limiting factor. 1-1 is nice, but this game is not 1-1 it's 12v12, and in the landscape of a team, the clan mechs will absolutely have a spot. competitive light mechs like the JR7-F with 6 MLs, will have a hard time getting into range when an adder is running escort. On the other hand a 2PPC Jenner, will be able to kite the hell out of the clan lights, and stands equal to them, if not better considering it can still mount JJs (don't think the adder variants will have JJs)

A Clan team with 3 lights, 3 mediums, 3 heavies, and 3 assaults, assuming roughly equal skill across the board, would be creamed by a Clan team with 6 mediums (at least 3 of which are Ryokens to act as "Clan lights on steroids"), 3 heavies, and 3 assaults. That's what I'm getting at. Just because your team is forced to have X number of a certain mech type does not make that certain mech type equally effective in their own right.


The PPC Jenner is a bad example because it's essentially a joke loadout (as are most big-gun carrying IS lights). Plus, the Cicada can do it better due to having more tonnage to play with.

[Foxfire]

If that is the case.. then it will be very hard for Light and Medium clan mechs to be viable.

[Ngamok]

Darian DelFord, on 06 May 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Well as a jenner I can dance around a slower mech without a problem and stay out of his LOS for shots. Now unless they have a huge torso twsit their fire power does not make up for their lack of speed. An atlas will 2 shot any light that runs slower than 120 KPH they do it now. Hell any heavy or Assault will be able to do that. I am seriously trying to work this out in my head. Even the slow as AC 20 raven I laugh at, it does not scare me. Right now the only light mech that I say Oh **** and run the other way is the Streak Oxide for obvious reasons.

Consider that the Clan Lights carry SSRM4s and SSRM6s and multiples in addition to their other weapons.

[FupDup]

Foxfire, on 06 May 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

If that is the case.. then it will be very hard for Light and Medium clan mechs to be viable.

For Clan mediums, the Ryoken will most likely be a beast due to its blessed base configuration that has a good engine and good pod space. The Black Hawk might be okay, depending on chassis quirks (although it certainly won't be able to use stock loadouts).

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Ngamok, on 06 May 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think they said they would let us redistribute the armor.

As far as i understood it. we'll be able to shift the armor around. So reducing the the armor on the front CT and add said value on the rear CT. It may be possible that we won't be allowed to shave off some armor for an heavier loadout.

[IraqiWalker]

FupDup, on 06 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

The PPC Jenner is a bad example because it's essentially a joke loadout (as are most big-gun carrying IS lights). Plus, the Cicada can do it better due to having more tonnage to play with.

(By the way, when I crop out parts of your response, that doesn't mean I am ignoring them, just that I agree with them on the general principle and it's not worth the space to just post "I agree" and clutter the post)

it is a joke loadout, but at close range the jenner loses against missile (SSRM not LRM) oriented 35 ton clan lights, has an even chance against energy and ballistic oriented ones though.

FupDup, on 06 May 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

For Clan mediums, the Ryoken will most likely be a beast due to its blessed base configuration that has a good engine and good pod space. The Black Hawk might be okay, depending on chassis quirks (although it certainly won't be able to use stock loadouts).

Why wouldn't it be able to use stock loadout?

LOADED, on 06 May 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

As far as i understood it. we'll be able to shift the armor around. So reducing the the armor on the front CT and add said value on the rear CT. It may be possible that we won't be allowed to shave off some armor for an heavier loadout.

We will be able to do that I think