292 replies to this topic

[ScorpionNinja]

Triordinant, on 13 May 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

The 1 premade per team rule is just a band-aid IMHO. The real solution is a premade-free, PUG only queue alongside an unlimited premade queue that any PUGs can opt to join if they want.

+1 AMEN

[Dan Nashe]

Gumon Choji, on 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

This is games launched. People launched workes out to be 84 single 60 in groups. 41.6% of people drop in groups. That would be 5 people per 12 man are in groups.


Math % times number droped gives 84 singles and 60 in groups. The total is 144. 60/ 144 gives fraction or percentile of players droping in groups as their drop is registered as one. Take that total times 12 to get how many playres per game drop in groups. 5

I notice from this math that having only one premade is a bad idea. Only one 4 man could be doable with minimal slow down. but one premade would not meet the demand for 5 places of the 12 that exists in your data.

I think the math is wrong: Although I agree with your conclusions.
84 Solo
8x2=16 two man
3x4=12 3 man
4x4=16 four man

44 group, 84 solo
Average group size is 2.Something
84/128=

For every 3 players (generous) you need 9 PuGs to put one premade on each side. Or 75% of the players (minimum) have to be dropping solo. You actually need more like 5/6 (85%)(minimum) to get good solid well matched queues.

65% of the players are dropping solo.

IF we are all reading the numbers right and PGI didn't just misstate the data the first time and never bother to correct the forums. As to be fair, the only people pointing this math out are complaining.

So either groups need to get bigger, Or something's going to break.
At a minimum, they have to start doubling up on 2 man groups. Possibly even allow a 3 + 2 to compete against 4s.
To be fair, the matchmaker needs to allow:
2 v 2
2 v 3
3 v 3
4 v 3
2+2 v 3
3 v 4
2+2 v 4
3+2 v 4

Although at that point, you might as well allow 5 player groups, but only match them against 4 or two 3s.
But that might be overly complicated for the matchmaker.

[Roland]

Heffay, on 06 May 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

There are at least 3 player run leagues providing this functionality for you. Why don't you join one of those?

Should we pay the money that goes to pay for the premium time for running private matches in those leagues, to the people running those leagues, since they are the ones who are providing the infrastructure for the persistent world, instead of pgi?

[Roland]

Gumon Choji, on 07 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

This is games launched. People launched workes out to be 84 single 60 in groups. 41.6% of people drop in groups. That would be 5 people per 12 man are in groups.


Math % times number droped gives 84 singles and 60 in groups. The total is 144. 60/ 144 gives fraction or percentile of players droping in groups as their drop is registered as one. Take that total times 12 to get how many playres per game drop in groups. 5

I notice from this math that having only one premade is a bad idea. Only one 4 man could be doable with minimal slow down. but one premade would not meet the demand for 5 places of the 12 that exists in your data.

Niko, could you please clarify these numbers that were provided by Paul?

In the reference, it mentions "number of drops". Was this just a master of confusing phrasing?

Specifically, in that data set, did a group of 4 players in a premade team who launched count as a single drop, or four drops?

Clarification of this point should be easily made, and would help us understand the composition of the player base.

Thanks.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sybreed, on 08 May 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

And you seem to be quite content!

Funny, i will give you that. The folly of languge but you have to consider the situation in relation to the use of the word.

Cimarb, on 08 May 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I C wut U did thar

I take nothing away. That was witty.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 13 May 2014 - 09:40 PM.

[Caswallon]

1st Props to Niko to be still reading this thread.

Weeeel the "patch" was more like a "rip" wasn't it... Not gonna defend anyone 'cept to say what happened was not what anyone wanted to happen so regardless of your opinion cut the Devs or most specifically the engineers on recovery duty what slack you can folks.

As for more content modes etc etc. Yes yes and Amen to every idea! We have enough Mech's (for now) give us varied and different things to do with them PGI! Half the elo imbalance is simply older players have learned the maps and "know" where the good spots to fight are. Decent but inexperienced players have not, get ambushed/caught out of position and die before their skills can be brought to bear.

You can have no Balance in any matchmaker algorithm until there is role warfare and folks know that each role has its part to play. Period.

Hire a game designer please or I dunno talk to the community that has thousands of hours experience making Battle tech scenarios; some of them will solve your problems for you probably for free...

[SgtKinCaiD]

Niko, even if the 3/3/3/3 limit is not coming shortly, can you consider turning the elo buckets back on ?

[Zack Esseth]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 14 May 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Hey everyone!

Quick update on what's going on:
Rule of Three's has a fix currently being put towards internal testing. Assuming all goes well (I'll keep you posted), we will be reactivating it with the next available patch.

As much as I would rather see a better team balancing tool such as BV. I would like to actually see this work.

[Vezm]

I'd like to know if equal number of pre-made players has been considered. Rather than matching number of pre-mades, match the number of players in pre-mades. Using a max of [6] on each team and the difference being +/- 1 it would give the MM the freedom to match plenty of different combinations of groups. 2/2/2, 4/2, 3/3, 3/2 etc. It also means half of the player pool can be in pre-mades of any size without affecting matching a much as a hard restriction.

3/3/3/3 for 'mech class per team could also use a similar method. ie a max difference of [2] between [2] of the classes eg; try to match 3/3/3/3, if there is a shortage of mediums but an abundance of lights it could match 4/2/3/3. The difference could ignored or balaced with elo, weight or and offset at the other end of the class spectrum ie 4/2/2/4 but with further restrictions and criteria matching time would increase so I would favor just discarding the difference, in all likelyhood if there is a shortage of one class, each team could be given the same modifier to 3/3/3/3 eg 4/2/3/3 vs 4/2/3/3 The difference in cue probably wouldn't be just one and if it were waiting for one player to make a pure 3/3/3/3 could be rather swift. Pre-mades would obviouly still have to comply with the rule of 3.

I know the number of players in cue is not going to be displayed, so number of each mech type wont be either. However a WarThunder style average wait time based of mech class and an average wait time for solo players and pre-mades could help players identify whether their long wait is due to their chassis selection so they can decide to switch if they want to. Alternatively a percentage of 'mech classes in cue could be implemented without revealing the number in the cue, but I imagine you would hy away from this option. This may seem like a band-aid for a MM that can't cope, but I like to think of it as empowering the player base. If players are sick of wait times they can easily alleviate pressure on the MM.

[rant]
Finally, and nothing to do with MM, there is an overwhelming number of acidic posts on this forum. The community needs to be a little more welcoming to new players. New players = more paying players = "less money grabs". Most of these acidic posts seem to come from people with little to no experience in programming or game development, heck half the time people are criticising the art team for not helping the engineers develop back end stucture... So, I think it would be beneficial if the louder croud would back off a little, expressing concerns and dissapointment is only natural but outward flaming and attacks on the dev's is hurting the game and community.

This is a two way street though. I appreaciate the community managers do their best with what they're allowed to share but the community is crying out for things and it's feeling ignored (whether it's true or not). I'm not claiming any short coming here, there have obviously been some communication errors in the past, but moving forward is key. Players need to feel like you are investing in them as much as they are investing in you. I don't think I'm entierly qualified to say much more on the subject except that people will make decision to support you based on how much they like you not how much they are saving on a sale. Some "charity work", while transparant, may go a ways to pleasing the people.
[/rant]

These are just some of the ideas I have read others post and/or though about. I'd like to hear some feedback on them if at all possible. To end on a positive note, I'm really enjoying getting back into the game and can't wait for the invasion.


Cheers,
Vezm

[eidt] Sorry for the wall. Also I don't mean to sound condicending, my intentions are pure.

Edited by Vezm, 14 May 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Triordinant]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 14 May 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Hey everyone!

Rule of Three's has a fix currently being put towards internal testing. Assuming all goes well (I'll keep you posted), we will be reactivating it with the next available patch.

Quick update on what's going on:
Rule of Three's had a fix put towards internal testing. Testing of 3/3/3/3 revealed further cases requiring fixing. We will keep you posted and let you know when we approve it to be put forward on a patch.

What about the 1 premade maximum per side rule? And the both teams have premades or neither team have premades rule? Are we at least getting those next patch?

[Cimarb]

Triordinant, on 14 May 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

What about the 1 premade maximum per side rule? And the both teams have premades or neither team have premades rule? Are we at least getting those next patch?

I hope they completely scrapped that idea, personally. They need to make grouping LESS restrictive, not more.

Based upon my own experience since LM was released, multiple groups on both sides has been quite common and I have not noticed any lopsided teams in that regards. I still think Elo is a myth/joke, and the lopsided-ness of matches has much more to do with bad "Elo matching" more than any other factor (and no, it very, very rarely has anything to do with the "domino" mistake explanation).

[Triordinant]

Cimarb, on 15 May 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

I hope they completely scrapped that idea, personally. They need to make grouping LESS restrictive, not more.

Actually: http://mwomercs.com/...70#entry3371970

[Cimarb]

Triordinant, on 15 May 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Actually: http://mwomercs.com/...70#entry3371970

That's why I liked that post already - I agree with it.

[Colonel Fubar]

This request is Sung To "Matchmaker, Matchmaker" From Fiddler on the Roof.

Dear Matchmaker...Matchmaker...make me a match.
Find me a Team, that knows how to defend and how to attack.

Matchmaker...Matchmaker grant me this wish, let me choose my own pug map and scratch the pre-mades off the list.

Matchmaker...Matchmaker I'll bring my own Mech you add a friend that doesn't drive a Golden Wreck.

Oh Matchmaker Matchmaker please hear my plea...add no dwankies to fight along with me, No freeze ups, No glitches, No damn...DC, drop me into the perfect match.

Matchmaker, Matchmaker whats that ready button for? We all hit it and yet have to wait more and more...what is that damn ready button...actually for?

Matchmaker...Matchmaker I really need to speak...typing in combat is really a freek, how about in game com's for...free?

Matchmaker Matchmaker just one last plea, In case there is someone at PGI other than a machine actually listening to me...Playing Mechwarrior online is very important to "We", how about the PREMIUM TIME Meter Not Constantly Running....even when we're not PL-A-A-A-YING!

Matchmaker Matchmaker Good luck trying to sort this all out, but Combat in the 31st century is what its all about...drop me the perfect match!

Edited by Danny Fubar Col 21C RHG, 16 May 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Roland]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 13 May 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Good question. I'll try to get an answer for you on this one by the end of week or early next week.

Just a little bump here, to remind you to get an answer to this when you get a chance.

Thanks

[Flaming oblivion]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 20 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]Attention players.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]As you may be aware, 3/3/3/3 has been re-enabled with this latest patch.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Wait times have extended in some cases farther than expected. As a result, we are removing the one-premade per team limit at this stage, while retaining 3/3/3/3.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]This means that each team could include more than one 2-4 person premade per side.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]The matchmaker will continue to aim to match an equal number of premades per side, though edge-cases may still occur in order to push you into a match rather than leaving you waiting longer.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Note that this will NOT re-enable situations of 12 person teams versus pick up groups.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]Thanks for your patience. We hope to hear your feedback on how this affects your wait. [/color]

I'm glad you have kept 3/3/3/3 in , But just so there is no misunderstanding its possible to have two 2 man groups on one side, and two 4 mans on the other?

[blackicmenace]

So I have been "searching" for a game for a very long time. Do we still get to play the game? Just got a bundle that included 30 days of premium, I don't care to waste that time and would love to be able to play the game.

Edited by blackicmenace, 20 May 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Cimarb]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 20 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]Attention players.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]As you may be aware, 3/3/3/3 has been re-enabled with this latest patch.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Wait times have extended in some cases farther than expected. As a result, we are removing the one-premade per team limit at this stage, while retaining 3/3/3/3.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]This means that each team could include more than one 2-4 person premade per side.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]The matchmaker will continue to aim to match an equal number of premades per side, though edge-cases may still occur in order to push you into a match rather than leaving you waiting longer.[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Note that this will NOT re-enable situations of 12 person teams versus pick up groups.[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]Thanks for your patience. We hope to hear your feedback on how this affects your wait. [/color]

Just to clarify, are the multiple teams still following the 3/3/3/3 rule across the team, or can multiple groups that individually meet the criteria (no more than 3 of a particular class) be on the same team and combined break the rule? I.e. Two teams on one side, one with 3 heavies and a light and the other with 2 assaults and 2 heavies - both individually meet the requirement, but combined break it for the team as a whole?

I am 100% against the 1-group rule, even as a solo dropper 90% of the time. If we get 3/3/3/3 working but can allow any number of groups (balanced) per side, that will be the best of all possible results.

Edit: wow, Niko, something is buggy about quoting your posts...

Edited by Cimarb, 20 May 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[SoHxPaladin]

Nightmage61, on 06 May 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

This is a big "up yours" to solo droppers. I'm sick of being your walking targets for lances of assaults and heavys on coms. It's not fun.

Solo only queue is my vote on the best way to fix it. keep track of the last 5 teams you were on and try to keep you off teams with those folks to discourage com cheating.

No balance in weight class or justice with teams. The need for 3/3/3/3 had stopped my money for PGI. Now I have two reasons to keep my money.

No rage quit, I still have hope they may get it right. Sometimes even getting stomped by assaults can be fun, just not over and over and over.

Being in a lance on comms isn't cheating first off. Second, if you are just a walking target for the premades, JOIN A PREMADE! This is supposed to be a team game, get with the curve! Third, if you are just a walking target for premades, CHANGE YOUR BUILDS! they gave you almost every tool they could *almost key word there* for the IS mechs to change everything in their loadout to fit the pilot. Fourth, after all those, if you still suck against premades, then you aint that great of a pilot, live with it and stop your bitching

[DrXitomatl]

Niko, I have a question about this thing:



Is the data gathered from mechs currently in matches, or is the data from people waiting to match? I ask because if it is from users currently in matches then it is bad data to go by, because then if it says that mediums are the best to take, then everyone waiting for a match chooses mediums and it takes forever for most of them to find a match.

And the reason I would possibly suspect it is because I just had 2 matches where I chose the recommended weight class and had to wait 5 minutes each time, then I tried selecting the "worst" one and got a match in less than one minute.

Edited by WM Xitomatl, 20 May 2014 - 02:53 PM.