102 replies to this topic

[Barantor]

PanchoTortilla, on 07 May 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

The CN9-AH never really got a chance to shine.

It was removed from the game before manually controlled missile bay doors were added. So using its secondary weapons was a total PITA. I hope they re-add it so we can see how it works without that bad firing delay.

I had fun driving one in CB but it only had an AC/20 and a gigantic engine like a 350XL, because its secondary missile weapons were useless with that missile door delay.

Stock it has the same speed as the normal CN9-A but it has two tons of LRM10 ammo and 2 tons of AC/20 ammo and no lasers for backup.

[Lootee]

Barantor, on 07 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Stock it has the same speed as the normal CN9-A but it has two tons of LRM10 ammo and 2 tons of AC/20 ammo and no lasers for backup.

That stock version doesn't sound so great but for regular matches an AH with an AC/20 and 2 SRM6 could be fun.

[Bishop Steiner]

PanchoTortilla, on 07 May 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

That stock version doesn't sound so great but for regular matches an AH with an AC/20 and 2 SRM6 could be fun.

it was, that is how I ran it in CB, which was after the engine nerf. I think it packed an XL250 when I rode it, and the ac20 and srms.

That said, for stock mech matches, the lrm 10 makes it a lot more versatile. I regularly scalped HBKs with mine. I miss it.

[TygerLily]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

it was, that is how I ran it in CB, which was after the engine nerf. I think it packed an XL250 when I rode it, and the ac20 and srms.

That said, for stock mech matches, the lrm 10 makes it a lot more versatile. I regularly scalped HBKs with mine. I miss it.

There's always the AC/20, SRM Grid Iron...not exactly the same but...

[Bishop Steiner]

TygerLily, on 07 May 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

There's always the AC/20, SRM Grid Iron...not exactly the same but...

I'm still really pissed over the Grid Iron. I waited 2 years for a hero Hunchy, and this is the crap they gave us? And it could easily have been made good, too.

[TygerLily]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I'm still really pissed over the Grid Iron. I waited 2 years for a hero Hunchy, and this is the crap they gave us? And it could easily have been made good, too.

Yea...I like mine a lot but it isn't exactly innovative in it's hardpoints...

[Bishop Steiner]

TygerLily, on 07 May 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Yea...I like mine a lot but it isn't exactly innovative in it's hardpoints...

be amazing what would have happened if they had put 2 missiles in the LT and a single ballistic in the RT. I still feel I could have come up with dozens of more interesting versions, but sadly, i do not have Strum Wealh's pull.

Heck, can't even get a Dev response to my Clan Invasion Stock mech match concept. Forgot to ask, what are your thoughts on that?

[TygerLily]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

be amazing what would have happened if they had put 2 missiles in the LT and a single ballistic in the RT. I still feel I could have come up with dozens of more interesting versions, but sadly, i do not have Strum Wealh's pull.

Heck, can't even get a Dev response to my Clan Invasion Stock mech match concept. Forgot to ask, what are your thoughts on that?

I'd be down...or rather, some Clanners would be down. xD

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Heck, can't even get a Dev response to my Clan Invasion Stock mech match concept. Forgot to ask, what are your thoughts on that?

I know you weren't asking me, but I'm bored so I'll chime in for shits n giggles.

Wouldn't the Clans roflstomp the living bejesus out of the IS? In TT it was crazy enough, but in MWO most stock mechs aren't even functional due to horribad dissipation rates for heatsinks. The bad heat system also hurts some Clan designs (*cough cough* Nova *cough cough*) but there are also some that get off easy (namely, Stormcrow Prime with 2 ERLL, 3 ERML, and 22 DHS). That config might actually have slightly too many sinks for MWO, lol. Ryoken Prime against SHS stock mechs...it's ggclose man. ggclose.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

I know you weren't asking me, but I'm bored so I'll chime in for shits n giggles.

Wouldn't the Clans roflstomp the living bejesus out of the IS? In TT it was crazy enough, but in MWO most stock mechs aren't even functional due to horribad dissipation rates for heatsinks. The bad heat system also hurts some Clan designs (*cough cough* Nova *cough cough*) but there are also some that get off easy (namely, Stormcrow Prime with 2 ERLL, 3 ERML, and 22 DHS). That config might actually have slightly too many sinks for MWO, lol. Ryoken Prime against SHS stock mechs...it's ggclose man. ggclose.

Remember, the clan mechs are being nerfed into the ground. And it's almost a 2 to 1 advantage. Also, the Clans SHOULD have a slight advantage. If they don't it's not the Clans, is it? And yet, you know which side I'll be dropping?

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

Remember, the clan mechs are being nerfed into the ground. And it's almost a 2 to 1 advantage. Also, the Clans SHOULD have a slight advantage. If they don't it's not the Clans, is it? And yet, you know which side I'll be dropping?

The advantage would be more than "slight" unless the nerfs turn out to be massive, due to the current state of the heat system (favors DHS to a much larger magnitude than TT did).

So far, all we have confirmed about lazors (the Ryoken's stock guns) for nerfs is a longer beam duration. In a NGNG podcast he said they'd still get more damage and more range. With 22 DHS, that' gonna keep 2 ERLL and 3 ERML running pretty well unless they get base heat increases (even then, it would still beat the endurance of any SHS mech). The biggest nerf to the Clans is obeying the TT Omnimech construction rules, but the Ryoken is one of those "Goldilocks" cases where it doesn't have weaknesses baked into the design.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

The advantage would be more than "slight" unless the nerfs turn out to be massive, due to the current state of the heat system (favors DHS to a much larger magnitude than TT did).

So far, all we have confirmed about lazors (the Ryoken's stock guns) for nerfs is a longer beam duration. In a NGNG podcast he said they'd still get more damage and more range. With 22 DHS, that' gonna keep 2 ERLL and 3 ERML running pretty well unless they get base heat increases (even then, it would still beat the endurance of any SHS mech). The biggest nerf to the Clans is obeying the TT Omnimech construction rules, but the Ryoken is one of those "Goldilocks" cases where it doesn't have weaknesses baked into the design.

Have you actually listened to the entire interview? The plan is essentially "Different but Equal". Long live the bloody FPS. And in FPS numerical superiority translates to focus fire which is one of the biggest force multipliers in this game.

But you got a simple option. Don't play if you are that worried. Or do you think it only fair if the clans fighting 1v4 or are totally restricted, and the IS has unlimited builds, so we can enjoy more of the metahumping we see on the main servers? In which case, why try anything different at all?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 May 2014 - 06:02 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Have you actually listened to the entire interview? The plan is essentially "Different but Equal". Long live the bloody FPS. And in FPS numerical superiority translates to focus fire which is one of the biggest force multipliers in this game.

Well, that's what Paul's been saying, but so far the nerfs to the weapons themselves that he's suggested aren't all that bad. I.e. LRMs that have a "ghetto minrange" (boring, exponential damage decay) and ripple-fire. Still better than IS LRMs by a longshot unless the ripples are really slow. Of course, he might have ninja-nerfs hidden up his sleeve that he hasn't shared with us yet...

On the flipside of focus fire, the fact that you're in stock builds dramatically reduces the amount and power of FLD alphas flying through the air (for both sides, although IS gets reduced by a larger amount). Eliminating single targets will be harder (for both sides), although not as much harder for teh Clanz.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

But you got a simple option. Don't play if you are that worried. Or do you think it only fair if the clans fighting 1v4 or are totally restricted, and the IS has unlimited builds, so we can enjoy more of the metahumping we see on the main servers? In which case, why try anything different at all?

Who said I'd be playing it? I'm just theorycrafting for the sake of shits n giggles and boredom.

And if I did join it, I'd probably opt for the Clan side for "testing" purposes (/evil grin)... I get what you're trying to say, but the specific example in this quote is taking it to a pretty big extreme.

If anything, the main fix here is to overhaul the heat system so SHS actually function, so their degree of inferiority is more manageable (I'm of the camp that would prefer them to be viable against DHS, but failing all else I think they should at least function on their own). 2 Medium Lasers should not be highly taxing for 10 SHS (don't necessarily have to be heat neutral, but shouldn't generate twice the heat you can dissipate either).

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Well, that's what Paul's been saying, but so far the nerfs to the weapons themselves that he's suggested aren't all that bad. I.e. LRMs that have a "ghetto minrange" (boring, exponential damage decay) and ripple-fire. Still better than IS LRMs by a longshot unless the ripples are really slow. Of course, he might have ninja-nerfs hidden up his sleeve that he hasn't shared with us yet...

On the flipside of focus fire, the fact that you're in stock builds dramatically reduces the amount and power of FLD alphas flying through the air (for both sides, although IS gets reduced by a larger amount). Eliminating single targets will be harder (for both sides), although not as much harder for teh Clanz.



Who said I'd be playing it? I'm just theorycrafting for the sake of shits n giggles and boredom.

And if I did join it, I'd probably opt for the Clan side for "testing" purposes (/evil grin)... I get what you're trying to say, but the specific example in this quote is taking it to a pretty big extreme.

If anything, the main fix here is to overhaul the heat system so SHS actually function, so their degree of inferiority is more manageable (I'm of the camp that would prefer them to be viable against DHS, but failing all else I think they should at least function on their own). 2 Medium Lasers should not be highly taxing for 10 SHS (don't necessarily have to be heat neutral, but shouldn't generate twice the heat you can dissipate either).

funny part..... Stock match actually reminded....SHS DO function. Work fine. The problem is, as always the level 2 tech is totally unbalanced, and DHS are one of the most extreme examples, especially in a game environment minus RnR or anything else to remotely balance them. For all the QQing (and yes some rightly, for the poor threshold mechanics in game), Paul was actually right in limiting external DHS to 1.4..... heck I'll say it, ALL DHS should be 1.4. Since we aren't getting the Heat Scale or Hard Point overhaul needed to truly fix things, it's time to use what we do have to do it right. 1.4 across the board and they are still superior, and still an almost no brainer upgrade, but no tan OMG upgrade, and oh, yeah, Alpha Warrior is hit squarely in the face.

Now if you can just get them to revisit the old heat threshold effects where over 80% heat started running the risk of ammo explosions and such, and we would be looking good.


Of course, the MinMaxxers (and purists too) would QQ bloody murder...but it's funny that those who cry the most about the game being broken, also cry the most against the actual steps needed to fix it.

Kinda ironic, ain't it?

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

funny part..... Stock match actually reminded....SHS DO function. Work fine.

Well, I suppose it depends on how we define "function." 10 engine single sinks can't even keep up with the heat output of 2 Medium Lasers here. That seems pretty bonkers from my point of view. If we have more heat output than BT had, I'd think it would make sense to have our heatsinks at least somewhat more effective (not necessarily exactly matched) than their turn-based counterparts (or, at least, modify our weapon heats to have the same heat per "turn" to have the same effect).

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

The problem is, as always the level 2 tech is totally unbalanced, and DHS are one of the most extreme examples, especially in a game environment minus RnR or anything else to remotely balance them. For all the QQing (and yes some rightly, for the poor threshold mechanics in game), Paul was actually right in limiting external DHS to 1.4..... heck I'll say it, ALL DHS should be 1.4. Since we aren't getting the Heat Scale or Hard Point overhaul needed to truly fix things, it's time to use what we do have to do it right. 1.4 across the board and they are still superior, and still an almost no brainer upgrade, but no tan OMG upgrade, and oh, yeah, Alpha Warrior is hit squarely in the face.

It would also hit energywarrior square in the face, too, due to the reduced internal DHS cooling rates. It would make my 2 LL + 5 ML Thunderbolt very sad. Heck, even my 2 ML + 4 SSRM2 + UAC/5 Shadow Hawk can get a little hot at times, even though it couldn't be a poptart alphawarrior if it wanted to. :\

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Now if you can just get them to revisit the old heat threshold effects where over 80% heat started running the risk of ammo explosions and such, and we would be looking good.


Of course, the MinMaxxers (and purists too) would QQ bloody murder...but it's funny that those who cry the most about the game being broken, also cry the most against the actual steps needed to fix it.

Kinda ironic, ain't it?

The problem with adding heat effects to our current system is that it's really really easy to get high on the heat bar, even with the high threshold we have now. Penalties worked out fine in TT because it was usually hard to overheat. You pretty much had to choose to overheat. Here, just about everything other than Gauss and AC (except the '20) boats can run hot. TT let you do things like having 4 ERPPCs completely heat neutral if you had enough sinks (hello, Hellstar) or 3 ML fully cooled by 10 SHS. Any penalties at all, with the current system, would have to be pretty soft to reflect the fact that we have much higher heat output here than the turn-based environment MW is based on.

[TygerLily]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

I know you weren't asking me, but I'm bored so I'll chime in for shits n giggles.

Wouldn't the Clans roflstomp the living bejesus out of the IS? In TT it was crazy enough, but in MWO most stock mechs aren't even functional due to horribad dissipation rates for heatsinks. The bad heat system also hurts some Clan designs (*cough cough* Nova *cough cough*) but there are also some that get off easy (namely, Stormcrow Prime with 2 ERLL, 3 ERML, and 22 DHS). That config might actually have slightly too many sinks for MWO, lol. Ryoken Prime against SHS stock mechs...it's ggclose man. ggclose.

We started a little bit of this conversation the MF:C site: http://mechforceclas...24371#p68324371

I think the idea is you'd have to 1) Allow full Tech 2 DHS mechs (including Heros) and 2) set up games as 10 vs 12. This is all speculation however...we'll have to see how the balancing attempts pan out and what it looks like upon implementation. Ideally, the Clan tech will balance via trade-off with IS Tech 2, making IS Tech 1 challenging to run, while Tech 2 stacks up evenly. Throw in to that the inclusion of IS Omnimechs (which could include new IS tech like ERML/SL, etc.) and in a perfect world, it's all balanced and kind of like the timeline: IS Tech 1 phased out for IS Tech 2 vs the Clan Tech.

[Rhaythe]

Holy frak, Bishop. You weren't kidding about the Hunchback in stock-only being a beast. =)

[Bishop Steiner]

TygerLily, on 07 May 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

We started a little bit of this conversation the MF:C site: http://mechforceclas...24371#p68324371

I think the idea is you'd have to 1) Allow full Tech 2 DHS mechs (including Heros) and 2) set up games as 10 vs 12. This is all speculation however...we'll have to see how the balancing attempts pan out and what it looks like upon implementation. Ideally, the Clan tech will balance via trade-off with IS Tech 2, making IS Tech 1 challenging to run, while Tech 2 stacks up evenly. Throw in to that the inclusion of IS Omnimechs (which could include new IS tech like ERML/SL, etc.) and in a perfect world, it's all balanced and kind of like the timeline: IS Tech 1 phased out for IS Tech 2 vs the Clan Tech.

and 5 v 8 is more balanced than 10 v 12, ever could be.

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Well, I suppose it depends on how we define "function." 10 engine single sinks can't even keep up with the heat output of 2 Medium Lasers here. That seems pretty bonkers from my point of view. If we have more heat output than BT had, I'd think it would make sense to have our heatsinks at least somewhat more effective (not necessarily exactly matched) than their turn-based counterparts (or, at least, modify our weapon heats to have the same heat per "turn" to have the same effect).



It would also hit energywarrior square in the face, too, due to the reduced internal DHS cooling rates. It would make my 2 LL + 5 ML Thunderbolt very sad. Heck, even my 2 ML + 4 SSRM2 + UAC/5 Shadow Hawk can get a little hot at times, even though it couldn't be a poptart alphawarrior if it wanted to. :\



The problem with adding heat effects to our current system is that it's really really easy to get high on the heat bar, even with the high threshold we have now. Penalties worked out fine in TT because it was usually hard to overheat. You pretty much had to choose to overheat. Here, just about everything other than Gauss and AC (except the '20) boats can run hot. TT let you do things like having 4 ERPPCs completely heat neutral if you had enough sinks (hello, Hellstar) or 3 ML fully cooled by 10 SHS. Any penalties at all, with the current system, would have to be pretty soft to reflect the fact that we have much higher heat output here than the turn-based environment MW is based on.

Again, no, SHS worked fine. Just because you can spam fire doesn't mean you SHOULD. Ask ANY of the guys in the Stock Mech matches. Heat was fine. We are just spoiled.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Again, no, SHS worked fine. Just because you can spam fire doesn't mean you SHOULD. Ask ANY of the guys in the Stock Mech matches. Heat was fine. We are just spoiled.

Spoiled even by Battletech itself, where many of those stock designs ran cooler than most of the DHS builds we have in MWO.

(To reiterate, no I'm not asking for 100% matched BT heat efficiency, it's just to portray the point that this game's heat output is way higher than BT's ever was).

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

Spoiled even by Battletech itself, where many of those stock designs ran cooler than most of the DHS builds we have in MWO.

(To reiterate, no I'm not asking for 100% matched BT heat efficiency, it's just to portray the point that this game's heat output is way higher than BT's ever was).

OK, here is what you need to do. Go take your mech, and only fire those weapons once every 10 seconds. Bet you will find the heat very similar to battletech. Yes we CAN fire faster. But if we fire at the TT rate, we get TT heat. As is, even with the big heat bugbear, the mechs are working FINE.