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Constructive Criticism From A Forum Lurking Founder (Read Disclaimer And Know This Is A Long Post In Advance; No Tl;dr)

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#1 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:25 PM

Disclaimer: I want to say a few things before I even begin my main discussion in order to keep this topic on discussion.

First, there are many, many things I enjoy about MWO. That being said; this is for constructive criticism, so do not think that I do not appreciate what has been done right.

Second, I may not post much but I have read most topics posted on these boards since beta. I have also been a BT fan for almost 20 years, so I know the mechanics and history quite well.

Third, this post is not necessarily directed at any one person/employee/player or even PGI/IGP specifically; it is my opinion and it is intended to be "global" perspective.

Finally, I could very well be wrong in my interpretations or information and it is a large part of the reason I am posting this. If I am wrong, please inform me as I would love to be because it would erase some of my criticisms.



Now that I said that I would like to address some of the issues that are keeping me from playing this game like I did during beta.

Community Warfare: This is BY FAR my biggest complaint for so many reasons. I certainly understand delays. I am willing to wait in order to allow a company to get things right. I am very patient as I do not have the technical or programming knowledge to fully understand what goes on under the hood. What I find completely unacceptable is being outright lied to or misled in order to keep me quiet or to get me, as a consumer, to spend more money. I feel that is exactly what has happened here. CW implementation has been a disaster. We have been promised this over and over again since beta, but have seen nothing! Recently we find out that CW has not even made it off the whiteboard?!

If things were this bad, why did we not know until a few weeks ago? We find out that IGP had forced reallocation of PGI assets to other divisions this late after launch!? Normally I would say something along the lines of "hey, it is their company after all" or something like that, but the Phoenix Package is what sent me personally over the edge of understanding on this issue. I'll tell you why.....

Link: http://www.pcgamer.c...fare-expansion/

This article from PC Gamer quotes Mr. Eckman as saying "Community Warfare will be delivered in three phases over the next six months."

I bought the Phoenix Package solely to benefit from the faction LP gains. Launch event and the above referenced article stated CW should be here by now. It's not. It's not even really delayed because they have not even actually started on it as far as what I have seen recently beyond a few doodles and ideas on paper. The blatant failure to communicate how far out CW really is, the disingenuous at best interview and communication to players is unacceptable. Thinking that CW was less than 6 months out was the influence that caused me to buy the Phoenix Package. Now I find out I have been intentionally misled and the company that sold me the product knowingly held back pertinent data regarding information that influenced what I purchased. I find that...how should I put it.....unprofessional (politely putting it).

Seriously, this behavior in other industries is direct cause for lawsuits.

Communication:Communication is limited, often vague, and sometimes incredibly disrespectful to the core community. Look at what ###, ###, and many other companies do. ### has CSM, quarterly reports, a great section on F&I's and constant dev blogs. ### has sufficiently detailed roadmaps and communication like this...which really impressed me.

https://forums.stati...-report.185306/

### took ownership of their problem even after fixing it. Look at the positive feedback from the community that had been hounding them. Happy customers, even if it took too long to most of them. We appreciate the honesty as gamers in a community.

What has MWO gotten? We get very limited information. We have scattered information across twitter, forums, and god knows where else. We get misleading information. Many of you will even remember that the forum posting founders and vocal posters were basically downright told they didn't matter last year when discussing upcoming features. Yeah I understand keeping the vocal minority in check, but that was the wrong way to handle your core fans who do, in fact, spend the most per capita on this game and actually care about it's success; these are also the guys that give you the detailed bug reports and suggest proper solutions to some issues. It could have at least been worded differently when communicating to them; but you essentially slapped em' in the face and said "see ya, and btw thanks for funding this thing!" if you don't like it.

Gameplay: While I do have criticisms, I honestly do not feel that I am technically qualified to understand the inner workings of the coding stuff. I would like to say that knockdown still hasn't been fixed, netcode is ok I guess, and SRM's still aren't fixed (hopefully tomorrow). Again, I don't know enough here to properly criticize so I will hold back, but these things should have been fixed long ago. What I do know is that we should have had integrated voice comms long ago and still no word on this? Any official reason why?

Meta: Many of us would love to play stock mechs only, many would love to play <insert variable> only. My OPINION is basically this.....the game is at such a state that not many people play it. New guys leave, old vets hibernate, etc. If they implemented this then the queue times would be forever long due to the exclusive options. Private matches are a step in the right direction I suppose. I honestly do not know how to fix the meta as all games suffer from it. I would love to hear your opinions on the matter.

In closing, I enjoyed the game and am trying to again. I do feel that some people who have invested money into this game have been misled; referencing my project phoenix explanation. I hope to engage in a respectful conversation with you all and I welcome PGI comments. I really want to play like I did in beta, but I don't know if that can happen again. I hope you guys working up there open up to the community and start being more honest with us on some issues. I also encourage pointing out any errors I have made; I will edit this post accordingly and log edits for all to see.

Edit: ### is a voluntary redaction in order to abide by forum rules.

Edit: My post was edited by Egomane (Legendary Mod) at 3:27 a.m. CST on 5/6/2014. No changes to my post were made. He only added the "general" tag. As a side not, we all should remember to thank these guys for the time they put in keeping these forums in order. It should also be noted that if they do something you do not like, message them respectfully asking why....maybe they have to regardless of their opinion and we should appreciate their dedication and professionalism. Thanks mods, your work may not be mentioned but it does not go unnoticed.

Edited by Doakes, 06 May 2014 - 01:40 AM.


#2 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:27 PM

I will use this post to try to paraphrase the direction the thread is going as it progresses....

LAUNCH MODULE: We are definitely getting some good reviews here. People not only like it, but a few guys are saying it is at least temporarily bringing some of their guys to the group.

Are any clans or individual premium members making an effort to invite new guys to the private matches? Maybe we could all get together and do a weekly or biweekly event to encourage this. We have stock mech Mondays. The scramble Tuesdays.....maybe we could start "Tag Along Thursdays". Something along the lines of every vet shadows and helps a new guy in two man teams. That encourages growing the groups, changes the flavor a bit, and helps PGI get more premium time guys. Any thoughts?

PHOENIX PACKAGES: Multiple Phoenix Package purchasers are stating their displeasure with the misrepresentation of CW progress with specific regards to the lack of LP gain which was stated would be within 6 months.

We have a suggestion to retroactively award that LP. How do you guys feel about that? I would love to hear from PGI on this officially because off the top of my head that would be a massive amount of data archived and I honestly wouldn't expect anyone to keep those stats accurate enough to be able to do that. I'm not a programmer so I have no clue if that is plausible.


COMMUNICATION: Niko in his post below has done a fantastic job of showing us exactly how much better the communication has gotten. It has also been stated that there have been some staff changes at PGI recently with Niko replacing Garth. Niko is doing well as far as i can see and Niko is doing awesome as busy as I am keeping him tonight. We certainly need to let Niko find his stride and continue his work. But I do not want it to get lost that I am not focusing on specific people......my concern is with the corporate level of communications or lack thereof. I was a Grunt and in a way these guys are too. They do not have the authority to tell us that features promised have been put off the priority list in order to reallocate resources to other things. I personally think that PGI/IGP should let us know where the major focus is. And you guys at corporate can say you are telling us now but you deceived us up until a few weeks ago. I want to know why.....you are a private company and I cannot access your financials (I have certainly tried) so we do not have a right to know but when you mislead us it comes out as we have seen. Finally, I myself would like to see all sneak peaks, announcements, etc. posted in one place on your website in sequential order.

Do you guys feel the same way? What would you suggest be changed? Remember we want to state what we want and try to help above all else so let us keep these ideas up.

Edited by Doakes, 06 May 2014 - 11:14 AM.


#3 Kyle Wright

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:40 PM

I totally agree. I spent money on the Phoenix Mechs because I was under the impression that loyalty medallions would do something and CW was with in arms reach. I've bought MC once since January because I couldn't take the grind any longer. Now, I am for certain done spending money on this game because I prefer to know what I'm buying into instead of getting a "just trust me you won't regret it" like response. If it weren't for my friends that I've made on this game I wouldn't have spent $1000 to build a computer to perform decently nor stayed around very much longer. Hell I just maybe loaded MW4 on my laptop and gotten all the action I could've wanted without paying a dime further.

Please make me believe in this game again as I'd love to support clan mechs but following me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

#4 Mycrus

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:42 PM

View PostDoakes, on 05 May 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Edit


Lulwut?

#5 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:58 PM

-

Edited by Doakes, 05 May 2014 - 09:48 PM.


#6 ZenFool

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:58 PM

I completely understand where you are coming from. The lack of integrated comms or lobby lead to massively unfair games that chase away all new players. Don't believe me? Check out the "new player" section of the forums where they ask about these very things. Premade groups are great if you are going up against other premades, but the way the game is currently set up loses more customers than it retains.

The in game coding and weapon balance doesn't bother me too much, but hearing about all the awesome features that are "almost" here for well over a year is disheartening. When I've mentioned this in previous posts the general reply is "its the only game in town". This is NOT a good reason to keep playing and spending money. That means retention of veterans is low.

So....No new players really... Veterans don't want to stay... Who is still playing day in day out? The clan groups who's elo is low enough that they still get in to matches vs. non premades(filled with the aforementioned new players). They stomp the crud out of new players and get to feel superior. They spend a little MC on airstrike and arty and drop again, each time alienating part of what could have been a healthy player base.

Am I wrong here?

#7 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:06 PM

ZennFool - I certainly do not think you are wrong. I also cannot entirely blame the "elite" groups for stomping. Who else are they supposed to play? Given that we agree on the limited number of players, the lack of community, no focused objectives, etc. What are they supposed to do? Also, since we do have the ComStar Server on TS do you think it would help if PGI advertised this option as maybe a 5 second popup before a match? Or what about an option to show you are on that server. Maybe some icon like the founder and phoenix icons next to our names? This isn't a fleshed out proposition but I am attempting to be constructive.

#8 Wayreth

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:13 PM

Whats even worse is that they have hundreds of these posts in the forums polite and otherwise worded and they ignore all of them. They ignore their player base. Plus, continually passed off bad coding as good game play and in the meantime kept most of us in the dark. Lastly they ask for support from other players fan sites when they provide nothing in return. I am only playing now for a few friends that have stuck around. Once they leave this account is in hibernation mode again.

#9 Lostdragon

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:14 PM

Fortunately PGI was not able to trick me into buying a Founder's, Phoenix, or Clan package. I have spent maybe $75 on MWO for MC to buy bays and a couple of hero mechs. I got exactly what I paid for, but at the same time I was spending money in the hopes that my support would help fund a great game with a really cool CW component, and on that front I have been disappointed since PGI lied about the development of CW repeatedly and still is nowhere close to having it done.

#10 SharpTooth Steiner

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:24 PM

That wasn't tldr lol

They have so little to do, just to cover their asses, just a little bs map to say there. We did it. Thats the community warfare we promised. Unfortunatly judging from the slideshow at launch, they are going to do just that. Release some garbage JUST to cover their ass and say WE DID IT!

Now why sharptooth, why would it take so long to make if they are just releasing a minimumly viable CW map to meet their legal obligations?

BEAUSE THEY HAVE ONE MORE PACKAGE TO SELL! THAT IS WHY IT IS COMING AFTER CLAN INVASION!

If they show us their hand right now, show us how crappy CW will actually be. Show us that they are just creating some dumb map with a few dumbass bonuses at the end of the match... NO ONE WILL BUY NO $500 DOLLAR CLAN MECH PACKAGES!

Just wait. After that last clan pack is delivered, CW will come out the doors 90 days later. Then a year later. The servers go dark and shut down.

This is my final prophecy.

Youve been warned.

Now enjoy your %500 dollar gold skin mech you suckers.

Still laughing out loud 3 years laeter.... bye for now :(

#11 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:26 PM

Nikolai: Thank you for the quick fix and the prompt action. The efforts on your side is appreciated. If anyone is owed the apology in this instance it would be you since I screwed it up.

Sharptooth: I think you misread the title "Know This Is A Long Post In Advance; No Tl;dr" as in I wasn't going to offer one. Perhaps I should have made it more prominent.

I echo the concerns you have but am not to such a gloomy point. Although the latest out of MWT has me more worried than I have ever been. It is definitely something on the back of a lot of our minds as of late.

As far as gold mechs go.....it is their right to sell that option. I actually believe they should because of the needs of the FTP model. I would never buy one myself, but I was hoping in beta to be one of those guys that bought at least one version of every package so I could say I did to myself in order to support the MW/BT franchise. I wish I could make myself buy at least the minimum of these packages but I have to echo Kyle Wrights last statement; unfortunately I was fooled twice.

I would like to ask you one thing Sharp....what and how would you fix things?

I certainly do not want to seem hostile to you because I am not, but we need to start being more cohesive as a community to help change the direction or at least the communication we are getting. I appreciate those "suckers" that have that much expendable income because they are integral in keeping the franchise alive due to F2P economics. It does us no good to insult trivialities or those who purchase them, but it would help if we get more suggestions and show our maturity and understanding of the economical model under which they are working.

Edited by Doakes, 05 May 2014 - 09:40 PM.


#12 Khobai

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:31 PM

Quote

I bought the Phoenix Package solely to benefit from the faction LP gains. Launch event and the above referenced article stated CW should be here by now. It's not. It's not even really delayed because they have not even actually started on it as far as what I have seen recently beyond a few doodles and ideas on paper. The blatant failure to communicate how far out CW really is, the disingenuous at best interview and communication to players is unacceptable. Thinking that CW was less than 6 months out was the influence that caused me to buy the Phoenix Package. Now I find out I have been intentionally misled and the company that sold me the product knowingly held back pertinent information regarding information that influenced what I purchased. I find that...how should I put it.....unprofessional (politely putting it).

Seriously, this behavior in other industries is direct cause for lawsuits.


I agree. And to make good on it, PGI really needs to award loyalty points retroactively. Because phoenix was hyped up under the auspices that CW was coming out a few months later. Now that phoenix mechs are OLD and everyone will want to play clan mechs, its only fair if loyalty points get awarded retroactively.

#13 Aresye

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:32 PM

The biggest issue I can see is that a good chunk of vets are either waiting, or have already left. The bugs, meta, poor matchmaking, and learning curve prevents most newcomers from latching on for an extended amount of time.

The biggest fans of BattleTech and the lore are more likely part of units/Clans than they are pugging solo, and that's the userbase that's getting screwed the most. Private matches are a very small step in the right direction, but (to be quite honest), it feels more like it's simply just a feature to alienate us from the targeted demographic so they can have less obstacles in the way as they further design the game to favor the Call of Duty crowd.

I'm beginning to believe there's this false impression amongst the developers that MechWarrior Online is going to be the next big thing in the world of F2P games, and it's not.

When it comes to mech style games, the ones people know about are Hawken and Titanfall. Ask your gaming friends about MWO and they likely haven't even heard of it. Hell, just give this article a read: http://www.pastemaga...hould-play.html

This is an article that came out March 11 of THIS YEAR, and MechWarrior 4: Vengeance is being labeled as a better game to play than MWO:

Quote

Vengeance introduced new multiplayer modes along with its campaign and remains more popular than last year’s poorly-received MechWarrior Online.


This game is an obscure nothing in the world of gamers, the developers think they can make this as popular as Call of Duty, and the most loyal fans of the BT franchise that have kept this community going are being pushed aside.

Sooner or later there aren't going to be any of those dedicated fans left, and once they're gone, the rest of this game will follow shortly after. The upcoming Clan mechs and how they will be implemented and balanced is PGIs last chance in my eyes. If they royally screw this up, I'm gone. They can keep my $350-$400 I've spent on this game for all I care, but they can certainly bet they will never make another game again, because we'll be warning every fan base in existence about them.

Edited by Aresye, 05 May 2014 - 09:34 PM.


#14 Eglar

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:46 PM

View PostDoakes, on 05 May 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Community Warfare: <snip>

Yes, i totally agree, I'd even go back further and refer to Dev Blog #1

View PostDoakes, on 05 May 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Communication:Communication is limited, often vague, and sometimes incredibly disrespectful to the core community. Look at what EVE, SOE, and many other companies do. EVE has CSM, quarterly reports, a great section on F&I's and constant dev blogs. SOE has sufficiently detailed roadmaps and communication like this...which really impressed me.


Communication was bad and as you might have noticed the former Community Manager PGI employed "Garth Erlam" is not working for PGI anymore. The new community Manager is "Niko Snow" since 2014 so give it time and see how it goes. Generally I have the feeling that PGI has made a lot of improvements be it game-play, balance, features this year.

View PostDoakes, on 05 May 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Meta: <snip>


This has been mentioned multiple times along with the matchmaker-elo-premades issue. While there will always be a meta, introducing private matchmaking is the first step towards your mentioned issues. Currently, it is possible to advertise or host for "stock-mech only events".

Personally I would find it great if PGI decided to revamp the entire social-tab system and introduced a public chat, available to all online players. There you can advertise for any game-restrictions you wanted.

Edited by Eglar, 05 May 2014 - 10:00 PM.


#15 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:02 PM

Nikolai: Thanks I read the edited version and apologize if I broke any rules or misrepresented my intentions in any way. Allow me to restate....

I referenced other companies NOT to 3rd party advert but to show real world example of what I would love to see you guys do better. I do apologize for any infraction and assure you it will not happen again.

I would like to add that you guys have gotten better with some of the dev blog stuff but my main focus (and this is getting echoed so far) is the lack of communication on the KEY feature of this game...CW. Why were we not told of the resource/manpower reallocation when we were encouraged to spend money thinking you were still making that the #1 priority? This is the communication we want in addition to the dev stuff. And if I may respectfully say this....there is not an easily searchable and well integrated database for a MWO pilot to go to regarding the announcements you guys make. Some is on twitter, some new stuff on reddit, even if it is cross posted properly it isn't timestamped on search so we can't find it easily. Imagine a new guy that is trying to research the progression of the game to get a feel for where the combat models are evolving with each patch. It is difficult at best.

But thanks for the info and edits and I'll make sure to follow sir. Great work tonight I'm keeping ya busy I see and my bad on that one.

Edited by Doakes, 05 May 2014 - 10:03 PM.


#16 El Bandito

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:14 PM

Good read, thanks.

I feel sad for the Phoenix buyers who were lured by the yet non-existent CW loyalty points.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 May 2014 - 10:16 PM.


#17 Kyle Wright

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:29 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 05 May 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Good read, thanks.

I feel sad for the Phoenix buyers who were lured by the yet non-existent CW loyalty points.


What makes it worse, is how worthless most of the chassis are. Aside form the Shadow Hawk, the Battlemaster, the majority of thunderbolts, and griffin have now been turned into 2nd line mechs with lrms that ill rarely use. Wolverine I am still trying to find a purpose for, and the Locust...umm yeah... I use its blood to grease my actuators on my Atlas, Ilya, and Wang lol

#18 Eglar

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:36 PM

View PostKyle Wright, on 05 May 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:


What makes it worse, is how worthless most of the chassis are. Aside form the Shadow Hawk, the Battlemaster, the majority of thunderbolts, and griffin have now been turned into 2nd line mechs with lrms that ill rarely use. Wolverine I am still trying to find a purpose for, and the Locust...umm yeah... I use its blood to grease my actuators on my Atlas, Ilya, and Wang lol

That all depends on how much you'd like to discriminate your own mechs. I know of people who wouldn't even touch anything but victors and cataphracts and jenners/ember while others also consider the shadowhawk, jagers viable and then there are also people who occasionally play their locusts :-O

#19 Kyle Wright

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:43 PM

View PostEglar, on 05 May 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

That all depends on how much you'd like to discriminate your own mechs. I know of people who wouldn't even touch anything but victors and cataphracts and jenners/ember while others also consider the shadowhawk, jagers viable and then there are also people who occasionally play their locusts :-O

Touche good sir lol

#20 Doakes

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:50 PM

I personally do not mind my Phoenix or Founder variants as I would absolutely love to eventually reenact battles using predetermined setups. I also like that they aren't the "best" as it shows commitment to keeping away from P2W





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