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Mwo Tournament Series (Beta): First Engagement


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#781 Harathan

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:35 AM

View PostShlkt, on 22 May 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:


IMO we really don't even need to reduce the thrust. Just nerf the fuel regen rate by 50%; mechs can still jump decently, and jump-sniping DPS is cut in half.


Now this is a good suggestion. Keep thrust values for JJ the same on ALL chassis, just make them have a longer recharge time. The lighter chassis still get their manouverability, the heavies and assaults can still poptart, only half as much.

Maybe change the weight of JJs per class too. Half ton on Lights, 1 ton on Mediums, 1.5 ton on Heavies, 2 ton on Assaults. Wouldnt have to mess with the thrust values then, because the tonnage will balance it anyway.

Only a few die hards would continue using poptarts, and they'd be sacrificing tonnage and DPS to do so.

Edited by Harathan, 22 May 2014 - 10:38 AM.


#782 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:36 AM

View PostDavers, on 22 May 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

So the lore doesn't matter unless it supports your argument?

Lore != Tabletop.

Truthfully I don't really care about either. It should be used for atmospheric purposes and to make the game actually 'Battletech' but regarding gameplay? Nah. We already have diverged from it in a number of ways that I'm sure people think were beneficial, such as lasers applying DoT rather than FLD.

#783 Harathan

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:40 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Lore != Tabletop.

Truthfully I don't really care about either. It should be used for atmospheric purposes and to make the game actually 'Battletech' but regarding gameplay? Nah. We already have diverged from it in a number of ways that I'm sure people think were beneficial, such as lasers applying DoT rather than FLD.


Not sure who thought that one was beneficial. But you're right, we have diverged very far from TT *and* Lore. I would assume that is to encourage new players who are not previous Battletech fans. A bad call, in my opinion. I suspect they've alienated more oldies than they've brought in newbies.

#784 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:43 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

That could also work but reducing the thrust also has the added benefit of requiring more JJs, and the extra weight will help reduce the number of heatsinks/weapons those mechs can carry, or reduce their engine size.


And the 12-JJ Spider which used to be able to jump onto the tops of tall structures will no longer be able to do so, thus depriving them of another ability in their already limited scouting role.

Do people here realize that by trying to control poptarts, they are potentially destroying other things?

#785 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:46 AM

View PostMystere, on 22 May 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:


And the 12-JJ Spider which used to be able to jump onto the tops of tall structures will no longer be able to do so, thus depriving them of another ability in their already limited scouting role.

Do people here realize that by trying to control poptarts, they are potentially destroying other things?

Uh... there are different classes of JJs... you don't need to apply the same things to every class. I also said nothing about raising the JJ weight...

#786 Davers

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:47 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Lore != Tabletop.

Truthfully I don't really care about either. It should be used for atmospheric purposes and to make the game actually 'Battletech' but regarding gameplay? Nah. We already have diverged from it in a number of ways that I'm sure people think were beneficial, such as lasers applying DoT rather than FLD.

Considering how past games were dominated by large lasers, I would agree. But the weakening of lasers have made PPCs more powerful by quite a degree. Which is funny as I remember mechs getting their PPCs 'upgraded' to ER LLs.

My only concern is this;

Without major system changes what we have now ("the meta" if you will) will be the way it will always be. Maybe a new go to mech will replace the Catsphract 3D, but only because it does the exact same job better. In games like DOTA and LoL you can change a hero and create a whole new synergy with how teams are built. In MW:O you don't have that.

#787 Shlkt

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:47 AM

View PostHarathan, on 22 May 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

The arguement is false. The 10 second interval represented an extrapolated series of real time events. If shooting while in mid-air was allowed in TT, the rules would cover having LOS from hexes other than the one you land in, and would allow opponents to choose to shoot at the jumping mech in any of the intervening hexes...


My point is that regardless or running or jumping, all fire is declared from the hex you end in. Even if you run, you don't get to use LOS from an intermediate hex in order to declare fire. Therefore if you use this rule as justification for saying "mechs never fire while airborne", then it must logically follow that those same 'mechs never fire while running.

Quote

The shooting occured after you had landed, from the hex you landed on, with the +3 penalty reflecting the difficulty of getting your guns back on target after landing a giant walking robot.


And the +2 modifier for running clearly represents the difficulty of getting your weapons back on target after stopping a full sprint :wub:

Edited by Shlkt, 22 May 2014 - 10:49 AM.


#788 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:52 AM

View PostDavers, on 22 May 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Without major system changes what we have now ("the meta" if you will) will be the way it will always be. Maybe a new go to mech will replace the Catsphract 3D, but only because it does the exact same job better. In games like DOTA and LoL you can change a hero and create a whole new synergy with how teams are built. In MW:O you don't have that.

Pretty much. Working within the game's current systems, the 'easiest' way to do this is to do two things: fix/buff SRMs and reduce the DPS of jumpsniping. All of my balance suggestions have revolved around this.

Jumpsnipers should be powerful from mid range or greater. Kind of the point. Once closed in on though they should not have the heat efficiency and general longevity to survive a brawler loadout from a comparable mech.

#789 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:56 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Pretty much. Working within the game's current systems, the 'easiest' way to do this is to do two things: fix/buff SRMs and reduce the DPS of jumpsniping. All of my balance suggestions have revolved around this.

Jumpsnipers should be powerful from mid range or greater. Kind of the point. Once closed in on though they should not have the heat efficiency and general longevity to survive a brawler loadout from a comparable mech.


You are asking for a huge nerf bat to come down on PPC's and AC's to accomplish this.

#790 Modo44

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:56 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Uh... there are different classes of JJs... you don't need to apply the same things to every class. I also said nothing about raising the JJ weight...

I will. In addition to scaling JJ lift, their weight should be scaled in a linear fashion between mech classes. 0.5 tons for lights, 1 ton for mediums, 1.5 tons for heavies, and 2 tons for all assaults. The 1 ton JJ for Victors is a travesty, and the 1 ton JJ for a 3D is also not helping.

#791 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:57 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Uh... there are different classes of JJs... you don't need to apply the same things to every class. I also said nothing about raising the JJ weight...


I was referring specifically to the suggestion of reducing JJ thrust. Less thrust means less height, which means that Mech XXX will no longer be able to reach certain places it is currently able to. But the poptarts will still be able to poptart just by sacricifing engine size, heat sinks, or something else. In short you destroyed something while trying to limit something else unrelated to the former.

#792 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:00 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 22 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:


You are asking for a huge nerf bat to come down on PPC's and AC's to accomplish this.

Nah. Those things aren't scary when put on, say, a Banshee. Jump jets are the problem. Reduce their thrust and you reduce the amount a jumpsniper can jump, therefore reducing the amount they can shoot, therefore reducing their DPS.

It's the gap closing period that's a problem for a brawler. Help that out and you help the brawler immensely. Once in a face-on-face fight a brawler has the more damaging weapons already.

View PostModo44, on 22 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I will. In addition to scaling JJ lift, their weight should be scaled in a linear fashion between mech classes. 0.5 tons for lights, 1 ton for mediums, 1.5 tons for heavies, and 2 tons for all assaults. The 1 ton JJ for Victors is a travesty, and the 1 ton JJ for a 3D is also not helping.

Agreed.

View PostMystere, on 22 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:


I was referring specifically to the suggestion of reducing JJ thrust. Less thrust means less height, which means that Mech XXX will no longer be able to reach certain places it is currently able to. But the poptarts will still be able to poptart just by sacricifing engine size, heat sinks, or something else. In short you destroyed something while trying to limit something else unrelated to the former.

Again, you don't need to apply the thrust reductions to a class V JJ, ie., lights can be completely unaffected by this change.

What does need to happen to lights is better JJ scaling, so that you can't just mount 1 JJ and be done with it. 1 JJ should provide less thrust than it does now, but 5 JJs should provide much more.

Edited by Adiuvo, 22 May 2014 - 11:00 AM.


#793 Eglar

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:03 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 22 May 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:


Really? First off, all of the other Mechwarrior games were balanced around a single player campaign. Only MW:LL really got Jump Jets right for a multi-player experience.

And Poptarting was a huge game defining issue in many MW games.

And it continues to be an issue in MW:O.

View PostHarathan, on 22 May 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:


Someone who thinks they're as clever as you do really should have realised that trying to compare game balance to a fiction novel was a fairly silly step.


Oh wait! You guys pulled the MMO Balance Card! How convenient it must have been to say:

View PostHarathan, on 21 May 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

View PostDEMAX51, on 21 May 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure you realize you're playing a real-time video game based on BattleTech.

Yeah, silly me for imagining that a video game based on a specific IP would actually follow that IP. Are you really going to try that arguement?


#794 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:06 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 22 May 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Again, you don't need to apply the thrust reductions to a class V JJ, ie., lights can be completely unaffected by this change.


But a Mech of the same class as the poptart but never used for poptarting will no longer be able to reach places it used to be able to.

Jump jets are not the problem.

#795 Harathan

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:08 AM

View PostModo44, on 22 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I will. In addition to scaling JJ lift, their weight should be scaled in a linear fashion between mech classes. 0.5 tons for lights, 1 ton for mediums, 1.5 tons for heavies, and 2 tons for all assaults. The 1 ton JJ for Victors is a travesty, and the 1 ton JJ for a 3D is also not helping.

Didn't I just suggest this and get shot down for it?

#796 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:09 AM

View PostMystere, on 22 May 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:


But a Mech of the same class as the poptart but never used for poptarting will no longer be able to reach places it used to be able to.

Jump jets are not the problem.

Since the game applies a flat 14.7kph forward movement speed every time you hit your JJs, mobility in general will not be impacted.

#797 Modo44

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:11 AM

View PostHarathan, on 22 May 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Didn't I just suggest this and get shot down for it?

This just shows why Elo should be displayed on the forums. I bet the arguments were very reasonable, too.

#798 Adiuvo

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:12 AM

View PostHarathan, on 22 May 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Didn't I just suggest this and get shot down for it?

This post right?

I don't think anyone shot you down for that one... it's a good suggestion!

Edited by Adiuvo, 22 May 2014 - 11:12 AM.


#799 Harathan

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:13 AM

View PostEglar, on 22 May 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:


Oh wait! You guys pulled the MMO Balance Card! How convenient it must have been to say:

Yeah, we've kind of moved on Eglar? Do you want to contribute to the current discussion or make Ad Hominem arguements?

#800 Cimarb

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:18 AM

View PostMahKraah, on 22 May 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

if we are realy at the point that we want to nerv jump sniping we dont need some fancy complicated game changes.
there is already a variable in game that controls convergence(there is a pilot skill for that).
if jumpjet is active it can simply alter the convergence up to a point where 2 or more weapons no longer can hit the same location. without the ability to concentrate 2-3 alpha weapons at a single location jumpsniping will lose its lethality and the "problem" is solved.

That skill currently doesn't do anything, as convergence is "locked" due to issues PGI had implementing it.

View PostShlkt, on 22 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Frankly the game modes we have, especially Skirmish, just do a lousy job of forcing an engagement. There's no motivation to fight when you can't do it on your own terms. A good game mode should provide players with an objective to fight over, so that one side or the other must engage or lose via secondary objective. Assault mode doesn't really satisfy that criteria, either; both teams can sit behind their turrets all day without losing until the first kill.

I still maintain that we need a King-of-the-Hill game mode; think Conquest with just one cap point that flips control instantly. A tie would scarcely be possible unless neither team ever ventured out to touch the cap point...

The Conquest mode we have does a good job of preventing ties, but it's still lousy for forcing an engagement. You can literally win while avoiding combat the whole time (not that this happens often, especially on small maps...)

To be fair, the current game modes were designed to allow teams to finish the fight while a single enemy (usually ECM light) was in a corner hiding while shutdown, or, in the case of Skirmish, to prevent CapWarrior matches. They weren't designed for tournament fighting, which is why there should be maps made specifically for these tournaments, IMO.

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 22 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:


Except you are taking it to the extreme. No one is saying you have to follow TT to the letter.

What we are saying is, since the game is based on Battletech (please don't deny that), we can use Battletech to help us figure out how to balance the game.

Poptarting has been a major issue in this game for a year. We all predicted it would happen, and a lot of us made mention of it before it became a problem.

TT offers a solution...in TT you fired when you landed, you did not fire while in the air. So a simple solution is to implement that in MW:O.

This is a good thing for numerous reasons, because right now, non-jumping mechs are basically second class citizens. Even if you couldn't fire while in the air, mechs with jump jets are supremely better at manuvering due to the stupid terrain restrictions and the way maps are laid out.

Jump sniping is not an issue, IMO. We saw the proper way to defeat a poptart team in the tournament, actually, as they brought tons of Cataphracts with brawling builds (AC5+AC20) and quickly closed the gap and engaged the poptart team where they could not use the terrain to their advantage. People that complain about pop tarting are just upset because they are getting outplayed in tactics.

The real issue is front-loaded damage (FLD). The way to test this is easy. Take the most effective poptart team you can find and force them to equip all those Victors and 3d Phracts with only ERLLs and AC2s, THEN see how effective they are pop tarting.

FLD is also the reason HoL refused to enter the cave (AC40s en masse) and why the brawler attack (AC20+AC5) was effective against the poptarts, as they had far superior FLD compared to the poptarts.

View PostShlkt, on 22 May 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

My point is that regardless or running or jumping, all fire is declared from the hex you end in. Even if you run, you don't get to use LOS from an intermediate hex in order to declare fire. Therefore if you use this rule as justification for saying "mechs never fire while airborne", then it must logically follow that those same 'mechs never fire while running.

And the +2 modifier for running clearly represents the difficulty of getting your weapons back on target after stopping a full sprint :wub:

Exactly.

What Nickolas and Haraden (plus others) are failing to understand is that a full turn involves movement AND firing, both of which are handled separately. If you say that you can't fire while jump jetting (movement), that also means you can't fire while running (movement), walking (also movement) or even falling (also movement and technically the same as jumping, but without the upward half). It would also mean that your mech would come to an immediate halt for five seconds as soon as you fired a weapon, and could not move until that 5 seconds was up, even to torso twist (which could only be done during the movement phase).

TT rules were made to simplify things. That is why movement was handled separately from firing, why LRM hits were clustered into groups of five, why missiles rolled to hit and THEN determined how many missiles actually hit, why lasers and MGs did all of their damage in a single hit, etc. Let's not get too crazy with trying to analyze when what happened in a ten-second turn, because it's all just a simplified way to represent a very hectic time period.





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