918 replies to this topic

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

GalaxyBluestar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

so they happen to not prefer the freemechs which can poptart just as well... or just maybe some mechs are more equal than others?

Hey...that's my sig line, because the Jester is totally P2W!

[Adiuvo]

Ngamok, on 31 May 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

It's funny you say this because lots of people to this day still complain that the Victor turns exactly the same as an Atlas. You can look at the threads in the General section. This is why I hope the Devs never listen to people because everyone will tell you something different. It takes tournaments like this to get them watching and see instead and take their data from it.

The Victor is also XL compatible and has a much higher engine cap. This results in it having a torso twist speed that's way too high.

GalaxyBluestar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

can anyone answer why the teams DIDN'T use heros... of course you can't cause you wanted the biggest advantage or were you using your crappier mechs in a finals?

that's what vass is getting at, free players can't be top tier and your decks are proving it. Now say if HOL were to use free mechs against the steel using heros would you excpet? would you win?

if you achieved both then there'd be no argument but as the tourney shows... you guys can't compete without them for fear of the other team using them and having the advantage, your choice PROVES that right?

i never believed this game was P2W but damn if you want to be on top looks like you need 8 pay mechs on your side to win comps...

Free players can use a 733C and a JR7-F and be basically just as effective.

733Cs especially would have been better on Crimson since there's very few hills to jumpsnipe over. Instead it's mostly corner peeking which the 733C excels at.

[Cimarb]

Wispsy, on 30 May 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

Well yes but it was 2...Phil did not seem to notice I was there in a basically fresh Ember...

Also nobody noticed our full Kurita team! QQ

You don't count though - you know that!

I noticed the faction swap, and did not approve, which is the other reason I was rooting against you guys

[wanderer]

Wieland, on 31 May 2014 - 12:32 AM, said:

So people buy them.

On sale, no less. What better advertisement are you getting than that?

Edit note: What folks shouldn't be focused as much on is the MC-only designs.

The dominant technique through the tournament was the bouncy-bouncy poptart in all of it's flavors- assault, heavy, and medium. (And teams that didn't like the mass-Jager pack of the first round just got gnawed to death)

Frankly, the only difference thanks to the Victor/Highlander nerfs was that everyone just stopped rocking Highlanders and stuck with the Dragon Slayers, where before we might well have seen more Highlander/Cataphract-3D mixes. The behavior in play was....pretty much the same.

Thanks to the winners for pointing out exactly how treating the user vs. the problem itself basically did nothing to change things.

Edited by wanderer, 31 May 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Ngamok, on 31 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

http://cloud-2.steam...DA2EEBC65ED7C9/

What's the difference? Weapons are in the exact same place as the DS. DS gets a little more top speed, 1 ton JJs instead of 2 but a little less armor. People who can excel in the DS can do it with the HGN-733C as well, case in point screenshot.

Edit: I am not taking into consideration any weight limitations btw like the tournament.

You tell me. I didn't see 11 highlanders per game. Did you?

[Zerex]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

You tell me. I didn't see 11 highlanders per game. Did you?

No we didn't because the weight limits meant u'd never see many Highlanders, so if u take the highest weight drop for the tourny, 720 and min/max'd to the limits u'd have a drop deck of 6x Highlanders and 6x spiders, so u'd only ever see 11 Highlanders if both teams Min/max'd for Highlanders, but u did see games with 11 Phract 3D's which guess what, they can hold the same weapon loadout and still leave a tanking side with better JJ control and almost the same speed with a std engine at the cost on Armour.

Point in fact that HoL beat SJR in the final using less DS's and more 3D's. If u still think that this tourny was all about p2w mechanics and are blind to the facts of teamwork, planning, player skill and experience. Prove us all wrong by grabbing 11 other players buy a DS each and challenge HoL to a match with them only using 3D's. if u can't beat them i think u'll have made my point for me, if u win u'll have proven that u have grounds that maybe they are p2w, until then i think that most people believe that the meta changes regularly and at this point in time, the meta play style favors jump sniping and the mech that does it the best at the minute just happens to be a Hero mech.

Edited by Zerex, 31 May 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Zerex, on 31 May 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

No we didn't because the weight limits meant u'd never see many Highlanders, so if u take the highest weight drop for the tourny, 720 and min/max'd to the limits u'd have a drop deck of 6x Highlanders and 6x spiders, so u'd only ever see 11 Highlanders if both teams Min/max'd for Highlanders, but u did see games with 11 Phract 3D's which guess what, they can hold the same weapon loadout and still leave a tanking side with better JJ control and almost the same speed with a std engine at the cost on Armour.

Point in fact that HoL beat SJR in the final using less DS's and more 3D's. If u still think that this tourny was all about p2w mechanics and are blind to the facts of teamwork, planning, player skill and experience. Prove us all wrong by grabbing 11 other players buy a DS each and challenge HoL to a match with them only using 3D's. if u can't beat them i think u'll have made my point for me, if u win u'll have proven that u have grounds that maybe they are p2w, until then i think that most people believe that the meta changes regularly and at this point in time, the meta play style favors jump sniping and the mech that does it the best at the minute just happens to be a Hero mech.

So you're saying that at a lighter weight, you get a faster, more mobile, far more jumpy, and just as heavily armed robot, but it costs money, and it lets you field more light robots, as well?

I see!

[Zerex]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

So you're saying that at a lighter weight, you get a faster, more mobile, far more jumpy, and just as heavily armed robot, but it costs money, and it lets you field more light robots, as well?

I see!

The Cat 3D? its not as well armored but yes it is engine for engine faster and more agile, the JJ's are more responsive being in the heavy class unlike the DS which has assault JJ's and yes it still carries 2 PPC's and 2 AC/5's.

The build of the team is set to a total team weight limit, in the finals case it was set at 720 tons, so 6x highlanders(90 tons) will be 540 tons and 6x spiders(30 tons) will be 180 tons, so 540+180=720 u could swop out the 6 Highlanders for Cat 3D's and still have the same firepower it just means that ur dropping 600 tons,120 tons shy of the limit. the point is they all have the same hardpoints, the same fire power its just the armour values, speed and the feel of the mech changes in these mechs. The Cat 3D's, DS and highlanders all have the same 30 point alpha, which ones the team takes depends on the team set up for the weight and which ones fit better in to the battle plan for that game.

[Vassago Rain]

Zerex, on 31 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

The Cat 3D? its not as well armored but yes it is engine for engine faster and more agile, the JJ's are more responsive being in the heavy class unlike the DS which has assault JJ's and yes it still carries 2 PPC's and 2 AC/5's.

The build of the team is set to a total team weight limit, in the finals case it was set at 720 tons, so 6x highlanders(90 tons) will be 540 tons and 6x spiders(30 tons) will be 180 tons, so 540+180=720 u could swop out the 6 Highlanders for Cat 3D's and still have the same firepower it just means that ur dropping 600 tons,120 tons shy of the limit. the point is they all have the same hardpoints, the same fire power its just the armour values, speed and the feel of the mech changes in these mechs. The Cat 3D's, DS and highlanders all have the same 30 point alpha, which ones the team takes depends on the team set up for the weight and which ones fit better in to the battle plan for that game.

I don't recall seeing a single highlander used by the pros, so why do you keep bringing it up?

[Morgana]

probably because you won't drop it.......

so how about the great tactics in those drops?

Edited by Morgana, 31 May 2014 - 03:19 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Morgana, on 31 May 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

probably because you won't drop it.......

so how about the great tactics in those drops?

I'm having problems responding to this post in an overall constructive manner, so I had to think about it for a bit.

The best thing I can say about MWO's top tier gameplay is that it has a lot in common with early 5th edition 40k; that is to say it's very narrow and limited, but until the company behind the game puts some work into it, there's not a lot the players can actually do to spice it up, and what fun and competitive spirit there is will be almost entirely player made, like it's this huge sandbox.

Unlike 40k, however, it's not as simple as designing a new tourney format that eventually FORCES the company to change, because we can't actually tamper with things like that in this here videogame.

I give full credit to the true OGs who went all the way mastering the limited tools available in MWO, just like I do in the previously mentioned 5th edition, but it is what it is, and it's not really fun to watch, and not a lot to talk about. No fault at all of the players involved. Just the game itself isn't, you know, built for it.

The tournament pretty much proved it. I haven't even seen much discussion outside this thread, as if everybody realized. It could also have a lot to do with the Niko vs Serious table affair overshadowing the tournament, but I digress.

Edit: I will add that I do believe you can salvage even the most crippled of systems if you put your mind to it, especially with an older playerbase like in this game. We managed to change 40k from a flavor of the month monobuild mess with soft scores, to actual livestreamed swiss convention tournaments, where the best players have to play the best players to win. But after having the same poptart silliness going on since may 2013? Come on. We're talking serious change here, that's easily the equivalent to the 40k community coming together for NOVA. PGI, IGP, and the entire playerbase has to join forces if you want this to happen.

This tournament could be considered a first step, but if PGI drop their engagement like they usually do with so many new and exciting things, then what?

Edited by Vassago Rain, 31 May 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Shredhead]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'm having problems responding to this post in an overall constructive manner, so I had to think about it for a bit.

The best thing I can say about MWO's top tier gameplay is that it has a lot in common with early 5th edition 40k; that is to say it's very narrow and limited, but until the company behind the game puts some work into it, there's not a lot the players can actually do to spice it up, and what fun and competitive spirit there is will be almost entirely player made, like it's this huge sandbox.

Unlike 40k, however, it's not as simple as designing a new tourney format that eventually FORCES the company to change, because we can't actually tamper with things like that in this here videogame.

I give full credit to the true OGs who went all the way mastering the limited tools available in MWO, just like I do in the previously mentioned 5th edition, but it is what it is, and it's not really fun to watch, and not a lot to talk about. No fault at all of the players involved. Just the game itself isn't, you know, built for it.

The tournament pretty much proved it. I haven't even seen much discussion outside this thread, as if everybody realized. It could also have a lot to do with the Niko vs Serious table affair overshadowing the tournament, but I digress.

Edit: I will add that I do believe you can salvage even the most crippled of systems if you put your mind to it, especially with an older playerbase like in this game. We managed to change 40k from a flavor of the month monobuild mess with soft scores, to actual livestreamed swiss convention tournaments, where the best players have to play the best players to win. But after having the same poptart silliness going on since may 2013? Come on. We're talking serious change here, that's easily the equivalent to the 40k community coming together for NOVA. PGI, IGP, and the entire playerbase has to join forces if you want this to happen.

This tournament could be considered a first step, but if PGI drop their engagement like they usually do with so many new and exciting things, then what?

Wow- Seriously, this was your first post in this thread that even made any sense. [Redacted] Though I don't know about WH 40K's 5th edition, as I stooped playing at the end of the 4th, I can now at least get behind some of your thoughts.

I think the worst thing that can happen now are nerfs. First a video to prove my point:

We had the Lords, the undoubtedly best jump snipers in this game, down to two mechs. Two small mistakes and a bug with the lances in the lobby have cost us the victory.
This proves my point that other decks and tactics are indeed still possible, and the gap between the play styles is smaller than you may think.
What does it need to let this gap vanish?
- Reliably working SRMs. Once they are back, many more chassis will see use in comp play again.
- Reworking the terrain restrictions for non-JJ mechs. They need to be able to climb hills and slopes again, at a reasonable pace and on reasonable angles. The current restrictions are way too punishing. With this you'd see those mechs in comp play once again.
- Strikes being tweaked. Ill just requote myself here:

Quote

In order to fix the problem without making the strikes useless, I propose following changes:
- Drop damage per shell/bomb to 20 points
- Double the amount of incoming shells/bombs
- Increase the time to arrival of the shells/bombs to 6 seconds (now 4)
- Increase the time of arty bombardment to 10 seconds (now 6)
- Double the rows of falling bombs from air strikes, adjust the spread accordingly
- Revert the area of effect of arty strikes back to 60 meters, increasing this radius is bad for damaged mechs that try to escape out of the zone
- Give an audio warning to all mechs within range of an incoming strike. I'd like a short siren sound or something, not Bitching Betty, as she's too slow talking.

This would bring the cooldown time up to 16 seconds and make strikes a true area denial weapon, essentially working like grenades in a FPS, scatter and take fire or stay and eat the damage.

All that said I would not expect a rapid change in who's on top in the comp scene. These guys are good, they'll adapt easily.

Edited by John Wolf, 31 May 2014 - 05:10 PM.
Unconstructive

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

The tournament pretty much proved it. I haven't even seen much discussion outside this thread, as if everybody realized. It could also have a lot to do with the Niko vs Serious table affair overshadowing the tournament, but I digress.

Not sure which has been more boring to watch: forum moderators duking it out in public, or a public tournament of poptart mechs duking it out with airstrikes.

[Cimarb]

Shredhead, on 31 May 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

In order to fix the problem without making the strikes useless, I propose following changes:
- Drop damage per shell/bomb to 20 points
- Double the amount of incoming shells/bombs
- Increase the time to arrival of the shells/bombs to 6 seconds (now 4)
- Increase the time of arty bombardment to 10 seconds (now 6)
- Double the rows of falling bombs from air strikes, adjust the spread accordingly
- Revert the area of effect of arty strikes back to 60 meters, increasing this radius is bad for damaged mechs that try to escape out of the zone
- Give an audio warning to all mechs within range of an incoming strike. I'd like a short siren sound or something, not Bitching Betty, as she's too slow talking.

This would bring the cooldown time up to 16 seconds and make strikes a true area denial weapon, essentially working like grenades in a FPS, scatter and take fire or stay and eat the damage.

I think those are even better changes than the ones going in next patch, but I'm just glad something is being done with them regardless. I don't like using them, and don't like feeling gimped by making that decision (and I'm a guy that prefers to chainfire LRMs...)

[Storyteller]

Congrats to HoL, the Semi Final and the Final itself were great matches and fun to watch. :-)

[Ngamok]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

You tell me. I didn't see 11 highlanders per game. Did you?

Sorry it took a few days to get back but no because of the weight restrictions which I even added in the my thread which you quoted. All I said is that I run into 4 man HGN-733Cs As you can see in my screen shot that it's Proton's 4 man in. So to me, there is no real difference since both chassis run the same loadout and locations. That's all I was saying and the fact that you don't need a MC only mech to do it in.

[L A V A]

Fantastic final!

Congratz to both HoL and SJR!

[Chavette]

Gz to my main men and mouthy b*stards.

Edited by Chavette, 03 June 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[DaemonWulfe]

SAHIL 619, on 08 May 2014 - 12:54 AM, said:

Its nonsense, as a player who doesn't have friends and plays alone (single). How would he be able to participate..?
Its impossible to play in this tournament as I have no 14 friends but only 2 friends....?
This a bad method......

Check out the House Liao Gatekeepers, or any of the other Liao groups who FREQUENTLY post recruitment threads in the MWOMERCS.COM forum section. There are plenty of groups out there to choose from, and some are mixed house groups as well, so keep that in mind.