162 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 May 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

if the casuals I drop with in PUG queues did 300 pts consistently, I would take it. Then again, when I get most people to actually post their stats, and you find your average damage, it's usually far lower than people care to admit on here.

What exactly is the formula for calculating average damage? I'm assuming it's total damage divided by matches played? Or total damage divided by matches played for specific weapons?

[YueFei]

Aresye, on 10 May 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

What exactly is the formula for calculating average damage? I'm assuming it's total damage divided by matches played? Or total damage divided by matches played for specific weapons?

Yeah, just take your total damage divided by matches played, for a particular mech variant, under your "Battlemech Statistics" tab.

I always find it amusing when people say they average 400 to 600 damage in a particular mech variant. There shouldn't be such a wide range specified if they actually checked their stats. Some people are just too lazy to even do that, even though to post on the forums they are already logged in. =P

For example, for my most-played mech since the stat reset, the Centurion-AL, I have 90 matches played in it, with a total of 41,465 damage. That's 460 damage per match.

That might seem decent, except I know it's kinda bad, because an even more interesting stat than damage-per-match is *damage-per-minute*. See, the Centurion-AL runs hot, so I spend alot of time cooling off and not helping my team. My win/loss in that thing is 1.07. I have spent 10:35:59 time driving that thing. So if you take my total damage and divide by the time, you get 65 damage per minute. Simply put, I am not putting out alot of pressure on the enemy team. In evaluating my performance, I think I should spend more time giving the enemy a bad target to shoot at, even if I'm at the heat limit and not going to shoot. Absorbing some hits on my Centurion's arm / arm stump / shoulder will help alleviate pressure from my teammates, and hopefully compensate for my lack of DPS.

I believe damage-per-minute is a far better indicator of how active you are in a match and how much pressure you are putting into the enemy team.

[Bishop Steiner]

YueFei, on 10 May 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yeah, just take your total damage divided by matches played, for a particular mech variant, under your "Battlemech Statistics" tab.

I always find it amusing when people say they average 400 to 600 damage in a particular mech variant. There shouldn't be such a wide range specified if they actually checked their stats. Some people are just too lazy to even do that, even though to post on the forums they are already logged in. =P

For example, for my most-played mech since the stat reset, the Centurion-AL, I have 90 matches played in it, with a total of 41,465 damage. That's 460 damage per match.

That might seem decent, except I know it's kinda bad, because an even more interesting stat than damage-per-match is *damage-per-minute*. See, the Centurion-AL runs hot, so I spend alot of time cooling off and not helping my team. My win/loss in that thing is 1.07. I have spent 10:35:59 time driving that thing. So if you take my total damage and divide by the time, you get 65 damage per minute. Simply put, I am not putting out alot of pressure on the enemy team. In evaluating my performance, I think I should spend more time giving the enemy a bad target to shoot at, even if I'm at the heat limit and not going to shoot. Absorbing some hits on my Centurion's arm / arm stump / shoulder will help alleviate pressure from my teammates, and hopefully compensate for my lack of DPS.

I believe damage-per-minute is a far better indicator of how active you are in a match and how much pressure you are putting into the enemy team.

very true.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Quote

Now what it looks like is happening is PGI is basing their balancing on the feed back from the NGNG and the more organized teams that have direct communication with those running PGI. The problem with this is the top 1% of players have a very very narrow view of the game. And they tend to fail to see how the changes they suggest effect the other 99% of the players.

[AssaultPig]

This problem could be entirely solved (and the functionality of highlander/victor chassis restored) if reticle shake also happened while the mech was falling. Instant fix that would impact basically no other parts of the game. Why they're trying instead to balance around the edges by nerfing autocannons, restricting what chassis can do or reducing the lift on JJs is beyond me. It would also open up the competitive/tryhard scene to include at least some chassis that don't fit jets.

The whole idea of jump-sniping mechs isn't reinforced by the lore, or the tabletop, or practically anything else, because it's capital-d Dumb. It's also stupid as hell from a gameplay standpoint. How there isn't broad consensus on this is beyond me.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Maybe I am looking at the wrong, but one of the big things I see with jump snipers is they find a spot and poptart until the battle moves away from that position. One of the early problems with jump jets is they had no forward momentum so it made climbing with them difficult to impossible. The fix provides some inspiration. How about when starting from 0 kph (or close to that) they add a good deal more forward momentum than currently. This does nothing to brawlers and other mobile styles of play which are perfectly happy to keep moving with their jump jets since the fix only applies 'Mechs which are standing still or moving extremely slow, but forces poptarts to reposition every time they jump or for some of the more sloppy pilots they jump right on top of their former cover.

I hesitate to add more fixes because I am a firm believer in one adjustment at a time until you have a good feel of how everything interacts.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Maybe I am looking at the wrong, but one of the big things I see with jump snipers is they find a spot and poptart until the battle moves away from that position. One of the early problems with jump jets is they had no forward momentum so it made climbing with them difficult to impossible. The fix provides some inspiration. How about when starting from 0 kph (or close to that) they add a good deal more forward momentum than currently. This does nothing to brawlers and other mobile styles of play which are perfectly happy to keep moving with their jump jets since the fix only applies 'Mechs which are standing still or moving extremely slow, but forces poptarts to reposition every time they jump or for some of the more sloppy pilots they jump right on top of their former cover.

I hesitate to add more fixes because I am a firm believer in one adjustment at a time until you have a good feel of how everything interacts.

This might work well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 10 May 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Maybe I am looking at the wrong, but one of the big things I see with jump snipers is they find a spot and poptart until the battle moves away from that position. One of the early problems with jump jets is they had no forward momentum so it made climbing with them difficult to impossible. The fix provides some inspiration. How about when starting from 0 kph (or close to that) they add a good deal more forward momentum than currently. This does nothing to brawlers and other mobile styles of play which are perfectly happy to keep moving with their jump jets since the fix only applies 'Mechs which are standing still or moving extremely slow, but forces poptarts to reposition every time they jump or for some of the more sloppy pilots they jump right on top of their former cover.

I hesitate to add more fixes because I am a firm believer in one adjustment at a time until you have a good feel of how everything interacts.

redacted for poor quote button usage

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 May 2014 - 05:35 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 May 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

pretty much what I recommended, yup. I dunno if it needs to be the entire time in the air, as I said, jump sniping can be a valid tactic, it's just currently too easy, with too little risk. My proposal at the beginning of the thread followed your basic idea, but didn't completely remove poptarting.

I do not feel mine does either. I feel it appreciably raises the difficulty to the point where it is an actual skill set instead of a mere meta style.

Edit: I do like the possibilities presented by your earlier post.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 10 May 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 10 May 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

I do not feel mine does either. I feel it appreciably raises the difficulty to the point where it is an actual skill set instead of a mere meta style.

actually... I meant to quote Assault Pigs post right above yours......

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

This problem could be entirely solved (and the functionality of highlander/victor chassis restored) if reticle shake also happened while the mech was falling. Instant fix that would impact basically no other parts of the game. Why they're trying instead to balance around the edges by nerfing autocannons, restricting what chassis can do or reducing the lift on JJs is beyond me. It would also open up the competitive/tryhard scene to include at least some chassis that don't fit jets.

The whole idea of jump-sniping mechs isn't reinforced by the lore, or the tabletop, or practically anything else, because it's capital-d Dumb. It's also stupid as hell from a gameplay standpoint. How there isn't broad consensus on this is beyond me.

pretty much what I recommended, yup. I dunno if it needs to be the entire time in the air, as I said, jump sniping can be a valid tactic, it's just currently too easy, with too little risk. My proposal at the beginning of the thread followed your basic idea, but didn't completely remove poptarting.

Nathan Foxbane, on 10 May 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

I do not feel mine does either. I feel it appreciably raises the difficulty to the point where it is an actual skill set instead of a mere meta style.

fixed

[Adiuvo]

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

This problem could be entirely solved (and the functionality of highlander/victor chassis restored) if reticle shake also happened while the mech was falling. Instant fix that would impact basically no other parts of the game. Why they're trying instead to balance around the edges by nerfing autocannons, restricting what chassis can do or reducing the lift on JJs is beyond me. It would also open up the competitive/tryhard scene to include at least some chassis that don't fit jets.

The whole idea of jump-sniping mechs isn't reinforced by the lore, or the tabletop, or practically anything else, because it's capital-d Dumb. It's also stupid as hell from a gameplay standpoint. How there isn't broad consensus on this is beyond me.

So your solution to fix a game mechanic is to remove it entirely?

Man I'm glad this game isn't balanced by the forum.

[AssaultPig]

it's a stupid mechanic that is almost single-handedly ruining the higher brackets, and restricting competitive play to a handful of chassis. Maybe you can argue that lights and mediums should have more freedom to fire while jumping, but assaults and heavies certainly should not.

also, forward momentum wouldn't hurt poptarts; if anything it would help them. Just turn legs 90 degrees from what you want to shoot at and you'd be fine (if anything harder to return fire at, since they've have lateral as well as vertical movement to spread damage or cause hitreg problems.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 10 May 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

So your solution to fix a game mechanic is to remove it entirely?

Man I'm glad this game isn't balanced by the forum.

yes, overreaction is not generally the best answer. Sadly, forums tend to be like politics..... any sane middle ground is either drowned out, or simply conveniently ignore (whilst people also love to pick and choose whatever lends to their own argument when reading ideas). Did you find my proposal of adding .5 second continued cockpit/reticle shake on the down jump, similarly extreme?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 May 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[Adiuvo]

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

it's a stupid mechanic that is almost single-handedly ruining the higher brackets, and restricting competitive play to a handful of chassis. Maybe you can argue that lights and mediums should have more freedom to fire while jumping, but assaults and heavies certainly should not.

also, forward momentum wouldn't hurt poptarts; if anything it would help them. Just turn legs 90 degrees from what you want to shoot at and you'd be fine (if anything harder to return fire at, since they've have lateral as well as vertical movement to spread damage or cause hitreg problems.

I play competitively for literally the top team at the moment. I think the mechanic is fine. What it needs is a reduction in it's DPS. This can easily be fixed by upping the weight of the JJs and applying the thrust scaling to all JJs that previously was only applied to the class 1 JJs (the Highlander's). Your suggestion, instead, destroys jumpsniping entirely.

I'd rather see things scaled back/buffed than removed.

Forward momentum hurts poptarters - the people who just stand still in one spot going up and down. Good jumpsnipers are already moving while sniping anyways.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 May 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

yes, overreaction is not generally the best answer. Sadly, forums tend to be like politics..... any sane middle ground is either drowned out, or simply conveniently ignore (whilst people also love to pick and choose whatever lends to their own argument when reading ideas). Did you find my proposal of adding .5 second continued cockpit/reticle shake on the down jump, similarly extreme?

.5sec is a bit too long, but I'd be alright with some delay being implemented. Right now the shake is gone the minute you let go of the JJ button.

Edited by Adiuvo, 10 May 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[AssaultPig]

Aiming in this game isn't hard enough for what you want to do to represent a fix. Mechs are large and move slowly. I either have a meaningful ability to fire during my descent, or I don't.

[Adiuvo]

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Aiming in this game isn't hard enough for what you want to do to represent a fix. Mechs are large and move slowly. I either have a meaningful ability to fire during my descent, or I don't.

I'm copying a fix for one mech chassis (the Highlander) and applying it to all the rest. It reduced the DPS of the HIghlander majorly. It worked fine.

[Nathan Foxbane]

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

it's a stupid mechanic that is almost single-handedly ruining the higher brackets, and restricting competitive play to a handful of chassis. Maybe you can argue that lights and mediums should have more freedom to fire while jumping, but assaults and heavies certainly should not.

also, forward momentum wouldn't hurt poptarts; if anything it would help them. Just turn legs 90 degrees from what you want to shoot at and you'd be fine (if anything harder to return fire at, since they've have lateral as well as vertical movement to spread damage or cause hitreg problems.

Funny thing about that. Most jump snipers do not like moving. At all. And cover is a great deal more restrictive when half the team is hiding behind one ridge line. Landing on the teammate next to you is considered poor form. If lateral movement was so helpful, I would see people doing it already.

More to the point jump sniping is a symptom of the PPC/AC weapon synergy to do FLD. I see few jump sniper gauss builds and the pilots tend to be damn good regardless of the ability to jump.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 10 May 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

I play competitively for literally the top team at the moment. I think the mechanic is fine. What it needs is a reduction in it's DPS. This can easily be fixed by upping the weight of the JJs and applying the thrust scaling to all JJs that previously was only applied to the class 1 JJs (the Highlander's). Your suggestion, instead, destroys jumpsniping entirely.

I'd rather see things scaled back/buffed than removed.

Forward momentum hurts poptarters - the people who just stand still in one spot going up and down. Good jumpsnipers are already moving while sniping anyways.


.5sec is a bit too long, but I'd be alright with some delay being implemented. Right now the shake is gone the minute you let go of the JJ button.

yeah, I acknowledge until it could be tested the exact duration is hard to tell. I list my reasons in the beginning of the thread though, but mostly, it forces a longer, higher jump, thus balancing the risk/reward factor. (and possibly encouraging using more JJs) But finding out the exact "happy medium" for the duration is the million dollar question. Too long, you totally remove a legit (if currently abused) tactic, too little, you have no real effect.

I do think it's more of a realistic fix than anything the NGNG guys proposed, though I do like the idea of upping leg damage for heavier chassis, to force players to keep a little thrust in the bottle for landings (I know right now, on HGNs and VTRs I don't even give it a thought unless i got cherry red structure showing).

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 10 May 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Funny thing about that. Most jump snipers do not like moving. At all. And cover is a great deal more restrictive when half the team is hiding behind one ridge line. Landing on the teammate next to you is considered poor form. If lateral movement was so helpful, I would see people doing it already.

More to the point jump sniping is a symptom of the PPC/AC weapon synergy to do FLD. I see few jump sniper gauss builds and the pilots tend to be damn good regardless of the ability to jump.

yeah, but his distinction between poptarts and jumpsnipers is dead on. I have no issue if those who are genuinely good at jumpsniping have it in their tool box as a useful and legit tactic..... it's the sheer preponderance of poptarts, in general, that break the game. And while jumpsniping is the prevalent meta in top tier comp too, I do think a few tweaks could, like the proposed ones, could put a damper on it's outright superiority, which is what is needed.

[AssaultPig]

to be clear, that was a response to the suggestion that there be .5 seconds or whatever of shake at the start of the descent. I don't really think that would matter, unless you make it last so long that you functionally can't jump-snipe anyway.

as far as applying the thrust change to other mechs, I guess I'd be in favor of it, but also don't think it's really a solution to the problem. You can do relatively low DPS and still be quite effective if (as in the case of jump sniping) there is little to no return fire (also, if you have a high alpha.)

this upcoming tournament will be a good testbed, I suppose. We'll see how many non-jump-snipe mechs get used by the winning teams.