60 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Flyby215, on 11 May 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Everyone seems to have different expectations and different opinions about the clan arrival.

If anyone thinks that MWO will stick closely to the lore, and the Clan mechs will be vastly superior such that a player can load up a clan mech with their saved up c-bills and roflstomp anyone foolish enough to still be running IS mechs, then said person will be sorely disappointed.

PGI won't introduce anything that obsoletes every other mech released to date (though one would wonder since the Awesome, Trebuchet, Locust among others are effectively obsolete...).

And that is exactly what Bryan Ekman said in the first of the three parts of the September 2013 interview by NGNG regarding Clan technology and its implementation in MWO, from (approximately) the 36:30 mark to (approximately) the 38:20 mark, wherein he specifically stated that he was making those statements "so that everybody can manage their expectations".

Quote

I'm going to say this right now, so that everybody can manage their expectations: We're not going to make the same mistake that was made for the last 30 years when it comes to introducing Clan technology into a BattleTech or MechWarrior project. IT WAS A MISTAKE - how powerful they were when they were first introduced - and it's something that I remember talking with [Jordan Weisman] about and him saying, "Wow... if I could take it back, I probably would; I'd probably change how they work, because it immediately invalidated an entire line of products and 'Mechs and content".

So, our approach to introducing Clan tech - which includes Double Heat Sinks and lasers and how equipment fits onto 'Mechs and OmniMechs - is we're going to look at it from the context of our game and inspired by what the intent was for Clan tech.

"Here is a superior force, coming back, that's going to lay waste to the Inner Sphere." But, we want to make sure those Inner Sphere players are able to compete, still. But the way the story was written, "it was through the valor of the Inner Sphere and the unification of the Inner Sphere that they were able to defeat the Clans, and overcome that superior tech."

We can't guarantee that our playerbase is going to be able to do that. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite - everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content - and we don't want that to happen. We want to be able to recreate what was described in that lore, but it's going to require us to change the mechanics and the exact BT... let's say, the numbers, to make sure that the players can actually try to achieve what happened in that canon.

- Bryan Ekman on Clan tech in MWO, from NGNG #88 (recorded Sept. 04, 2013)

Edited by Strum Wealh, 11 May 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

RedDragon, on 11 May 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Yes, exactly. But PGI takes it out of context and claims that those rules are special for Omnimechs. They make it sound as if you could make these changes on Battlemechs and use it as tool to nerf Omnimechs when in fact the rules are only there to clarify that Omnimechs are not special in that regard and are to be treated as Battlemechs. So the "weakness" PGI uses to nerf the Omnis should in fact be applied to Battlemechs as well.

Except OmniMechs could not change several things at all, while "standard" BattleMechs could change those things if time, money, the correct parts, sufficiently-skilled technicians, and the correct facilities were available.
For example, if a Mad Cat was cored and lost its Engine, the only Engine that could make it operational again (as an OmniMech) would be a Clan-tech XL 375 - an IS XL 375, Clan STD 375, IS STD 375, or any Engine of any other rating simply wouldn't work. A similarly-cored ON1-K Orion simply wouldn't have that issue.

The only "out" available to the OmniMechs with regard to that system is through invoking the "FrankenMech" rules found on pages 189 & 190 of Strategic Operations.

• "Normally, it is not possible to combine structural components from ’Mechs of different weight classes. However, if players so wish (and the technical support they have available is skilled and desperate enough), they can attempt to create a 'FrankenMech' using available parts to get that one extra ’Mech back into action for the next battle. Several limitations must be observed when creating one of these maintenance nightmares" (StratOps, pg. 189)
  
• "OmniMechs: Any OmniMech components incorporated into a FrankenMech will lose all benefits and special abilities associated with OmniMechs. They cannot be reconfigured with alternate pod load-outs. A FrankenMech cannot carry Mechanized Battle Armor." (StratOps, pg. 190)

As such, one could try to swap put the Engine in the example Mad Cat... but, even if one is successful, the resultant 'Mech is now a FrankenMech and possesses the same abilities and limitations as a "normal"/non-OmniTech 'Mech - including locked hardpoints arrangements.

Thus, the balance is maintained - one can either have the moddable base chassis & fixed hardpoints of a "normal"/non-OmniTech BattleMech or the flexible loadout & non-moddable base chassis of an OmniMech, but one can never have both the "normal" BattleMechs' moddable chassis & the OmniMechs' flexible loadout on the same individual 'Mech.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 11 May 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

Strum Wealh, on 11 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Except OmniMechs could not change several things at all, while "standard" BattleMechs could change those things if time, money, the correct parts, sufficiently-skilled technicians, and the correct facilities were available.
For example, if a Mad Cat was cored and lost its Engine, the only Engine that could make it operational again (as an OmniMech) would be a Clan-tech XL 375 - an IS XL 375, Clan STD 375, IS STD 375, or any Engine of any other rating simply wouldn't work. A similarly-cored ON1-K Orion simply wouldn't have that issue.

The only "out" available to the OmniMechs with regard to that system is through invoking the "FrankenMech" rules found on pages 189 & 190 of Strategic Operations.

• "Normally, it is not possible to combine structural components from ’Mechs of different weight classes. However, if players so wish (and the technical support they have available is skilled and desperate enough), they can attempt to create a 'FrankenMech' using available parts to get that one extra ’Mech back into action for the next battle. Several limitations must be observed when creating one of these maintenance nightmares" (StratOps, pg. 189)
  
• "OmniMechs: Any OmniMech components incorporated into a FrankenMech will lose all benefits and special abilities associated with OmniMechs. They cannot be reconfigured with alternate pod load-outs. A FrankenMech cannot carry Mechanized Battle Armor." (StratOps, pg. 190)

As such, one could try to swap put the Engine in the example Mad Cat... but, even if one is successful, the resultant 'Mech is now a FrankenMech and possesses the same abilities and limitations as a "normal"/non-OmniTech 'Mech - including locked hardpoints arrangements.



Thus, the balance is maintained - one can either have the moddable base chassis & fixed hardpoints of a "normal"/non-OmniTech BattleMech or the flexible loadout & non-moddable base chassis of an OmniMech, but one can never have both the "normal" BattleMechs' moddable chassis & the OmniMechs' flexible loadout on the same individual 'Mech.

And that's the problem, PGI left out all the balance factors to Battlemech customization. The time it takes to rebuild a mech, the needing to have an actual mech factory to swap out structure and engines, the need for skilled techs, and the risk of a weapon swap failing because the mechs systems where not designed to handle said weapon.

Hell you don't even need to pay a fee when swapping weapons, engines, installing ammo, changing heat sinks or anything. These techs just work for praise I guess

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 11 May 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Lucian Nostra, on 11 May 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

And that's the problem, PGI left out all the balance factors to Battlemech customization. The time it takes to rebuild a mech, the needing to have an actual mech factory to swap out structure and engines, the need for skilled techs, and the risk of a weapon swap failing because the mechs systems where not designed to handle said weapon.

Hell you don't even need to pay a fee when swapping weapons, engines, installing ammo, changing heat sinks or anything. These techs just work for praise I guess

Because waiting for those kind of things is not fun. The only thing they might have done is lock the internal structure type or lock a 'Mech for days or even a week to change the internal structure. Because replacing the internal structure is a factory level refit, something few units and individuals have access to. Bit late to employ such a restriction now though.

[wanderer]

MetalGandalph, on 11 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

We cant configure Clan Mech Engine,structure,amor and heatsinks.

Who else is pissed about it? Clan mechs will be totally underpowered. When it stays how it is i am out.

They aren't Clan 'Mechs. They're CINOs.

A Clan 'Mech would actually be superior to an IS one of equivalent weight by a good amount, but what you have is nothing of the sort.

[Aresye]

It doesn't matter if Clan mechs require a better pilot to fully utilize their advantages. Any advantage, regardless of the skill it takes to use, is going cause a bunch of pissing and moaning here on the forums, because bad players won't ever stop crying until the developers create a game where they can continue playing bad yet have an advantage over players 10x better than they are.

[Grimmrog]

MetalGandalph, on 11 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

We cant configure Clan Mech Engine,structure,amor and heatsinks.

Who else is pissed about it? Clan mechs will be totally underpowered. When it stays how it is i am out.

MetalGandalph, on 11 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

We cant configure Clan Mech Engine,structure,amor and heatsinks.

Who else is pissed about it? Clan mechs will be totally underpowered. When it stays how it is i am out.

wellc hanging armor and structure is basically done to free soem tonnage for eapons. Since clan weapons weight less this is not that bad. The only thing may be the XL engines clanners are restircted to, Many may not like this. The worst for me is, that we cna not chnge at leats engine rating. Why not lowering or upgrading the engine to make some space? because not posible.
While all IS mechs can upgrade their gusn via upgrading their mech, Clans will eb very restricted in tonnage/slot loadout. they cna only swap gusn for guns.

I wonder if we can exchange legs and therefore JJ's yes JJ's can not be dequipped. but if the legs come as "omipods" they would be replaceable. Are legs podable?

[Strum Wealh]

Lucian Nostra, on 11 May 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

And that's the problem, PGI left out all the balance factors to Battlemech customization. The time it takes to rebuild a mech, the needing to have an actual mech factory to swap out structure and engines, the need for skilled techs, and the risk of a weapon swap failing because the mechs systems where not designed to handle said weapon.

Hell you don't even need to pay a fee when swapping weapons, engines, installing ammo, changing heat sinks or anything. These techs just work for praise I guess

Does not changing out structure (Standard to Endo Steel & vice versa), HS types (SHS to DHS), and so on still charge a c-bill fee? What happened to that 1.5 million c-bill "DHS tax" that people were griping about?

Personally, I would prefer to see a less-subvertable version of Repair & Rearm to be implemented as a control measure for 'Mech customization, but that may just be me.

----------

Nathan Foxbane, on 11 May 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Because waiting for those kind of things is not fun. The only thing they might have done is lock the internal structure type or lock a 'Mech for days or even a week to change the internal structure. Because replacing the internal structure is a factory level refit, something few units and individuals have access to. Bit late to employ such a restriction now though.

That could be accounted for by making the actions instantaneous, but increasing the cost of each action.

Personally, how I would have liked to have seen it done as having both the installation cost & the repair cost being calculated as one-half of the cost of the component, paid in addition to the acquisition cost of the component.
For example:

• Installing a 200 XL Engine in an otherwise-stock CN9-A Centurion (which starts with a 200 STD Engine) when one does not already have said XL Engine would cost a total of 4,899,750 c-bills (3,266,500 c-bills to buy the 200 XL Engine (according to the MWO Wiki, at the time of this writing), plus 1,633,250 c-bills to install it).
  
• Re-installing the original 200 STD Engine in the CN9-A would cost 739,960 c-bills (one aready owns the Engine (which costs 1,226,600 c-bills), so only the 0.50 * cost installation fee applies).
  
• Repairing the 200 STD Engine after Engine Destruction would cost 739,960 c-bills.
  
• Repairing the 200 XL Engine after Engine Destruction would cost 1,633,250 c-bills.

Likewise, the per-round rearm cost for ammunition-based weapons would be calculated as the result of dividing the per-ton cost of one-ton of ammunition divided by the number of rounds per ton.
There would be no free ammunition given (unlike the previous (flawed) R&R implementation), and free repairs would restore the 'Mech to approximately 75% or 80% component health status.

The OmniMechs would then be cheaper - or even costless - with regard to switching out pod-based equipment, and component replacement costs for the fixed elements would be non-applicable as those could not be changed (though, the after-battle repair & ammunition replenishment prices would be calculated in the same manner as for non-OmniTech 'Mechs... and Clan-spec components do tend (at least, in BattleTech) to cost somewhat more than their IS-spec counterparts).

Note that the numbers used above are for illustrative purposes.

Thoughts?

[Nathan Foxbane]

Strum Wealh, on 11 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Does not changing out structure (Standard to Endo Steel & vice versa), HS types (SHS to DHS), and so on still charge a c-bill fee? What happened to that 1.5 million c-bill "DHS tax" that people were griping about?

Personally, I would prefer to see a less-subvertable version of Repair & Rearm to be implemented as a control measure for 'Mech customization, but that may just be me.

----------


That could be accounted for by making the actions instantaneous, but increasing the cost of each action.

Personally, how I would have liked to have seen it done as having both the installation cost & the repair cost being calculated as one-half of the cost of the component, paid in addition to the acquisition cost of the component.
For example:

• Installing a 200 XL Engine in an otherwise-stock CN9-A Centurion (which starts with a 200 STD Engine) when one does not already have said XL Engine would cost a total of 4,899,750 c-bills (3,266,500 c-bills to buy the 200 XL Engine (according to the MWO Wiki, at the time of this writing), plus 1,633,250 c-bills to install it).
  
• Re-installing the original 200 STD Engine in the CN9-A would cost 739,960 c-bills (one aready owns the Engine (which costs 1,226,600 c-bills), so only the 0.50 * cost installation fee applies).
  
• Repairing the 200 STD Engine after Engine Destruction would cost 739,960 c-bills.
  
• Repairing the 200 XL Engine after Engine Destruction would cost 1,633,250 c-bills.

Likewise, the per-round rearm cost for ammunition-based weapons would be calculated as the result of dividing the per-ton cost of one-ton of ammunition divided by the number of rounds per ton.



There would be no free ammunition given (unlike the previous (flawed) R&R implementation), and free repairs would restore the 'Mech to approximately 75% or 80% component health status.

The OmniMechs would then be cheaper - or even costless - with regard to switching out pod-based equipment, and component replacement costs for the fixed elements would be non-applicable as those could not be changed (though, the after-battle repair & ammunition replenishment prices would be calculated in the same manner as for non-OmniTech 'Mechs... and Clan-spec components do tend (at least, in BattleTech) to cost somewhat more than their IS-spec counterparts).

Note that the numbers used above are for illustrative purposes.

Thoughts?

Interesting and lots of potential. Bit of a tax on customization. Maybe turn XLs into a conversion cost like DHS. The fee being a % of the cost of the largest rated engine of a different type a 'Mech can take. Changing back is a % of the cost of a stock engine? Endo definitely needs a much higher conversion cost to balance it out. Endo needs some sort of extra cost to offset its massive weight advantage. Maybe only advanced tech generates an R&R cost. Tier 2 tech all have R&R maybe?

The return of R&R will make CASE and XLs a thing again, which always made me happy. I was never a super big fan of some of the higher R&R costs (like the insane Artemis cost, no matter how true to TT), because it reminded me to much of WoT where you would be working on a Tier IX and had to drop back to Tier VI because your costs outweighed your gains even in victory. Might make a cool secondary objective for all game modes though. Capture supply trucks to reduce your R&R costs. Salvage bonus converted to a repair with salvage bonus and salvage bonus. You get a bonus for chassis, weapons, and equipment not on the 'Mech for that drop, and the rest goes to reducing the R&R fee.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 11 May 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[Davers]

Strum Wealh, on 11 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Other than the fact that this is yet another R&R system that punishes new players far more than anyone else?

[Nathan Foxbane]

Davers, on 11 May 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Other than the fact that this is yet another R&R system that punishes new players far more than anyone else?

You sir, have nailed my one reservation of the bringing back R&R. How to do so without hurting players who are still trying to build up a decent bankroll to get into customizing.

[Lucian Nostra]

Strum Wealh, on 11 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Does not changing out structure (Standard to Endo Steel & vice versa), HS types (SHS to DHS), and so on still charge a c-bill fee? What happened to that 1.5 million c-bill "DHS tax" that people were griping about?

Personally, I would prefer to see a less-subvertable version of Repair & Rearm to be implemented as a control measure for 'Mech customization, but that may just be me.

I ment the number of heatsinks they cost nothing to remove or put on the mech as long as you own them.

And oh darn you pay the cost to put endo on a mech, imagine how much the labor should cost you to completely rebuild a mech

[Zolaz]

PGI didnt make Clan mechs, they dont have the skill at programming do that. PGI just slapped the old Inner Sphere code on "different" mechs and called it Clan tech. lol People are actually paying $500 and $240 American dollars for them.

PGI cant even make the screens in your mech work.

[van Uber]

RedDragon, on 11 May 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

So the "weakness" PGI uses to nerf the Omnis should in fact be applied to Battlemechs as well.

Why? Because it says so in a 30-year old textbook?

[Khobai]

Clan Mechs should be able to change their engine sizes but with a more restricted range than IS mechs.

Clan Mech (min and max engine range)
Lights = +/- 60 base engine rating (i.e. an uller with a 180 base engine could use a 120-240 engine)
Mediums = +/- 45 base engine rating (i.e. a ryoken with a 330 base engine could use a 285-375 engine)
Heavies = +/- 30 base engine rating (i.e. a thor with a 350 base engine could use a 320-380 engine)
Assault = +/- 15 base engine rating (i.e. a daishi with a 300 base engine could use a 285-315 engine)

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 12 May 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Clan Mechs should be able to change their engine sizes but with a more restricted range than IS mechs.

Clan Mech (min and max engine range)
Lights = +/- 60 base engine rating (i.e. an uller with a 180 base engine could use a 120-240 engine)
Mediums = +/- 45 base engine rating (i.e. a ryoken with a 330 base engine could use a 285-375 engine)
Heavies = +/- 30 base engine rating (i.e. a thor with a 350 base engine could use a 320-380 engine)
Assault = +/- 15 base engine rating (i.e. a daishi with a 300 base engine could use a 285-315 engine)

While the Uller can be build as a MW4- Uller with a higher engine cap.
Mechs like the Warhawk will get some additional spare tonnage. (325)
The Nova - can hardly afford the additonal engine weight

Not to mention the additional "problems" when increasing the engine rating over a 25er step (for example warhawk with 350 or Dire Wolf with 285? -> loose a heat sink - or keep the number of fixed heat sinks the same.

I hardly have an idea how PGI will be able to add the "pod interchangeability" to have "changeable" fusions will make it even less plain and simple

(However i don't think that we will even be able to switch pods - in the end - OmniMechs will be BattleMechs - with all their freedom and limitations.

[RedDragon]

van Uber, on 12 May 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

Why? Because it says so in a 30-year old textbook?

Actually, my edition of the master rules is from 2012.

But the real point you try to bring up with your sarcastic remark is: Why should we stick to rules that were invented 25 years ago? The answer is pretty simple: Because it's Battletech. If it wasn't, we could just call it "Generic Mechshooter Online". But it's a game based on the IP Battletech and therefore players expect the game to have rules and fluff from the game, in this case Clan mechs that are superior to IS mechs because everything else would lead the whole background story ad absurdum.
Why even have Clans if they are no special threat to the IS? Why even have Omnimechs if IS mechs are more customizable?
If they don't wanted to introduce Clans with better equipment because they are too lazy to make it happen in a balanced way, they should just have stuck to the earlier year of the time line before the Clans invaded. As it is now, they just throw some half-assed Clan mechs at us to make some more money, but it will bring absolutely no value to the game.

[Kyynele]

Strum Wealh, on 11 May 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Well, PGI did mention that "OmniPods can exist for configurations that [they] do not sell as complete 'Mechs in the store", mand even used the Black Hawk as a specific example.

"E.g. The Black Hawk D only has 2 hardpoints, and could be hard to justify making as a 'Mech on its own, but the hardpoints are unique compared to other configurations. So the OmniPod of the Black Hawk D’s right arm OmniPod could be made available to place on other configurations."

So, it is possible that you could still get your missile-armed Black Hawk even if the Black Hawk D is not released as a separate configuration...

This is worth noting also if you've bought a clan pack. You will be getting the prime and 2 alt configs, but that might not be all there is. There's a possibility for a huge C-Bill sink in these extra omnipods, which is sort of in demand for PGI since engine swaps and upgrades aren't applicable. I'd bet that swapping those omnipods won't be free either. Might be best to start saving up if you already haven't.

[Joseph Mallan]

MetalGandalph, on 11 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

We cant configure Clan Mech Engine,structure,amor and heatsinks.

Who else is pissed about it? Clan mechs will be totally underpowered. When it stays how it is i am out.

Even if I were to play Clans, I would be fine with the restriction cause Omnis are not suppose to be able to have those items Modable.

It has been a restriction in Universe for 24+ years.

Now how Pods are being handled sounds bad.

[Kilo 40]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Now how Pods are being handled sounds bad.

How so?