60 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

I have to have Pods for a B configuration, I have to have Pods for a C configuration, I cannot Custom Build a Timber Wolf (Pryde) or (Bounty Hunter). Or for that Matter a Timber Wolf (Mallan). Correct me if I have read the information wrong.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

I have to have Pods for a B configuration, I have to have Pods for a C configuration, I cannot Custom Build a Timber Wolf (Pryde) or (Bounty Hunter). Or for that Matter a Timber Wolf (Mallan). Correct me if I have read the information wrong.

Isn't bounty hunter the Prime - less the missiles for a targeting computer?
And pryde - sacrifices the secondary small arms for jump jets (this could indeed be a problem)

[ssm]

RedDragon, on 12 May 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

Actually, my edition of the master rules is from 2012.

But the real point you try to bring up with your sarcastic remark is: Why should we stick to rules that were invented 25 years ago? The answer is pretty simple: Because it's Battletech. If it wasn't, we could just call it "Generic Mechshooter Online". But it's a game based on the IP Battletech and therefore players expect the game to have rules and fluff from the game, in this case Clan mechs that are superior to IS mechs because everything else would lead the whole background story ad absurdum.
Why even have Clans if they are no special threat to the IS? Why even have Omnimechs if IS mechs are more customizable?
If they don't wanted to introduce Clans with better equipment because they are too lazy to make it happen in a balanced way, they should just have stuck to the earlier year of the time line before the Clans invaded. As it is now, they just throw some half-assed Clan mechs at us to make some more money, but it will bring absolutely no value to the game.

Well, problem is - it's simply impossible to introduce thing like TT-OP Clans to online fps shooter "in a balanced way".

We can toy ad infinitum with actually lazy, half-assed things like 10v12 or BV, but those wouldn't change the fact that enough people would rather like to play as superior-but-outnumbered Clans than IS cannon fodder to make IS tech (more than half of game's content) obsolete.

PGI is doing it the hard way, by correcting the madness that Clantech was in the first place.

Edited by ssm, 12 May 2014 - 02:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Isn't bounty hunter the Prime - less the missiles for a targeting computer?
And pryde - sacrifices the secondary small arms for jump jets (this could indeed be a problem)

I don't remember the Original... The latest has a lot of 3070 light crap I just noticed.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

I don't remember the Original... The latest has a lot of 3070 light crap I just noticed.

Ah just looked at the record sheet. You can't create the Bounty hunter.
You need a energy HP (including ECM) in the right torso.

Crap?
I would kill to get my hand on a Heavy PPC (something for the arms of my T-Bolts and BattleMaster - that doesn't look like toys)

[Kilo 40]

I'd think pryde and bounty hunter will be hero mechs.

and I didn't get the impression that there would be specific pods for each configuration. Not that I couldn't be wrong , I just can't remember reading anything like that.

edit: as in, pods can only be used on that specific config.

Edited by Kilo 40, 12 May 2014 - 03:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Admittedly I haven't paid close attention to the Omni Whoas, But I do fear that The Clans will not be the Boogeymen I was anticipating.

[van Uber]

RedDragon, on 12 May 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

But it's a game based on the IP Battletech and therefore players expect the game to have rules and fluff from the game, in this case Clan mechs that are superior to IS mechs because everything else would lead the whole background story ad absurdum.

I apologise if I came across as snarky, that was not my intention as much as raise a rhetoric question.

MWO is based on the IP Battletech, agreed. What players expect or should expect from this is where we disagree. I'd say that Battletech is fluff and the old TT rules is the interpretation of the fluff to a specific medium (table, dice, hexes, etc). MWO is the interpretation to another specific medium (realtime, player skill, etc).

So why again should we adhere to old rules tailored for a very different medium? This question is especially interesting in the light of Jordan Weismans own words that if he had the opportunity to do the Clans all over again, he would have done it differently. He admits they were poorly implemented. Are we bound to repeat bad design, just because it came to print a long time ago?

Why does Jordan believe that Clans were bad? Partially because they were superior. They made several models obsolete and created a huge feature creep, which is kind of a very basic no no in game design. So with the encouragement of Jordan, PGI tries to avoid that mistake. It means they will have to deviate from the TT rules, but they try to stay true to the fluff. I am convinced that it is possible to pull off, that TT rules and fluff is not joined at the hip, but the first is just an interpretation of the last.

[Karl Streiger]

I believe he also said - that the Clans shouldn't have got such a range increase - more a short range fighter.
That would make sense some how - a duelist don't need weapons with long reach. He want to fight it one on one. To show his enemy his skill - and you don't see much skill at 1000m or more

Also think with the "taboo" of physical combat for the clans in combination with "better" range for IS weapons - TT would have been much more interesting. Although the failure must have happens earlier with the Intro of SL Tech (can remember what a veteran IS-2 Level lance did to a pirate company of Tech level 1)

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

Admittedly I haven't paid close attention to the Omni Whoas, But I do fear that The Clans will not be the Boogeymen I was anticipating.

The Tripple / Double Ballistic Assault will be a good Boogeyman - but not because its a CLanMech

[wanderer]

Quote

We can toy ad infinitum with actually lazy, half-assed things like 10v12 or BV, but those wouldn't change the fact that enough people would rather like to play as superior-but-outnumbered Clans than IS cannon fodder to make IS tech (more than half of game's content) obsolete.

PGI never even tried, preferring instead to attempt to nerf the un-nerfable to the point of dysfunction. That's how much it'll take to get gear that's as compact and light as Clantech to even remotely similar function to IS gear.

A Clan 'Mech takes the same raw damage to kill as anything else in it's weight class- it can't get extra armor and it's internals take the same damage as IS ones of the same weight. Smaller forces would already have the issue of being glass cannons- suffering far worse from damage than a comparable IS force. 5v8 would have been rough on Skirmish, 10v12 or 10v16 on Assault/Conquest matches even WITH superior tech.

Instead, in the name of "balance" you can't even organize a Clan force into Clan-style units. They are Clan In Name Only- CINOs. It's a mark of how clumsy PGI is with their own game that the minimal-effort solution is the one going in, slapped with a $500 coat of gold paint, and seeding an epic storm of player-flung dung to come once they realize what they paid for.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

I believe he also said - that the Clans shouldn't have got such a range increase - more a short range fighter.
That would make sense some how - a duelist don't need weapons with long reach. He want to fight it one on one. To show his enemy his skill - and you don't see much skill at 1000m or more

Also think with the "taboo" of physical combat for the clans in combination with "better" range for IS weapons - TT would have been much more interesting. Although the failure must have happens earlier with the Intro of SL Tech (can remember what a veteran IS-2 Level lance did to a pirate company of Tech level 1)



The Tripple / Double Ballistic Assault will be a good Boogeyman - but not because its a CLanMech

I do beg to differ. My Daughter won a Trial of Bloodname with a double ERPPC shot at long range. Went like this.

Range+movement=+6(combined) S you need a 10 to hit with your ERPPCs. (RATTLE/Toss)10, 9, 6(LRM)

Ok now Roll Loacation... Box Cars will destroy his head...
(RATTLE/Toss) 12!

Opponents return fire was not as impressive. 11 years old, and a Kerensky Trueborn. Funny part of the story is I walked in announcing, "Gentlemen your Doom has arrived." was teh guys reaction. Then my daughter stepped out from behind me, "And here she is!"

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

Admittedly I haven't paid close attention to the Omni Whoas, But I do fear that The Clans will not be the Boogeymen I was anticipating.

I find it difficult to comprehend that anyone who has played the game for more than a week can actually believe that the Clans will be any less screwed up, broken, unbalanced and unplayable than anything else.

I'm not holding my breath, man.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the Clans....they're SUPPOSED to be technologically superior to the IS for any number of reasons. After the breakup of the Star League, the IS went into a technological decline due to the Ruling Houses doing their level best to blow each other back to the Stone Age....all the while, the Clans continued to develop Star League tech into something better.

We won't even argue the whole "nature vs nurture" thing with regard to the genetics program. One thing is certain, though, the Clans produce better "rookie" warriors...hence the difference in TT when putting pilots together.

Regardless...the Clans are SUPPOSED to be an unstoppable juggernaut, at least for a moment. By the time the Clans invaded, NOTHING could slow them down....until Comstar with it's Star League tech stopped them on Tukayyid. Granted, there were minor victories here and there...but, ultimately, the IS didn't get a chance to get caught up technologically until after the truce.

We're not going to see that here. We're going to see watered down Clan Omnis that are barely on par with the EXTREME meta builds with the completely customizable IS mechs.

Odds are pretty good that, from a technological standpoint, the Free Rasselhague Republic stands a good 70% chance of actually repelling the Clan invasion pretty much all by itself....and the timeline goes straight down the toilet from there.

Edited by Willard Phule, 12 May 2014 - 04:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 12 May 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

I find it difficult to comprehend that anyone who has played the game for more than a week can actually believe that the Clans will be any less screwed up, broken, unbalanced and unplayable than anything else.

I'm not holding my breath, man.

Oh I hold no illusion of that. I just figured they would be that and a bag of chips!

[Willard Phule]

Chips. Y'know, on the farm, we had a different definition of "chips".....I'm just sayin'.

[Onmyoudo]

Willard Phule, on 12 May 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

Regardless...the Clans are SUPPOSED to be an unstoppable juggernaut, at least for a moment. By the time the Clans invaded, NOTHING could slow them down....until Comstar with it's Star League tech stopped them on Tukayyid. Granted, there were minor victories here and there...but, ultimately, the IS didn't get a chance to get caught up technologically until after the truce.

We're not going to see that here. We're going to see watered down Clan Omnis that are barely on par with the EXTREME meta builds with the completely customizable IS mechs.

Odds are pretty good that, from a technological standpoint, the Free Rasselhague Republic stands a good 70% chance of actually repelling the Clan invasion pretty much all by itself....and the timeline goes straight down the toilet from there.

Okay, sure - what you've said is reasonable. However there isn't going to be an 'invasion'; there is no story in MWO. It will be Deathmatch, Deathmatch, new mechs have arrived, Deathmatch and more Deathmatch, so that's what they will (theoretically) be balanced around. So in lore - which has nothing to do with MWO, in the end - all of these things happened, but from the standpoint of an online shooter, you've just got a bunch of new chassis with slightly different mechanics. Maybe that's not what you want but with the way the game is, that's how it has to be.

Standard "if CW were here it might be different" disclaimer that I feel I have to add to too many of my posts.

[Aim-Bot]

No question. The clans have to be balanced but PGI is doing it the wrong way. For sure you cant bring imbalanced content in an online game but the way they are balanced looks very very wrong. they nerf the weapons and the costumization and i expect the clan mechs to be totally underpowered since you cant change anything than the weapons.


I personally expect a huge huge shitstorm on june 17th.

Edited by MetalGandalph, 12 May 2014 - 06:49 AM.

[AlexEss]

We sort of have to split fluff from game mechanics.

In the BT world exchanging a weapon on a IS mech was a labour intensive process that called for complete removal and reconstruction of wiring and even structural some times. (hence why it is more common that a mech either downgrades a weapon or loose two components for one upgrade)

A clan mech comes pre-constructed with a modular ports... one system to control any type of weapon. Think of them as a USB port to the IS PS/2, com and 3 mm ports. So they coudl just yank one system out and put a new one in. This both make field repairs and "hot.swapping" a lot easier (as easy as anything is when it comes to a several stories tall walking deathmachine.)

So yes the IS mechs are massivley over-customizable in the game compared to TT lore but pretty much right on point for a MW game.

Now since Clan mechs are supposed to be able to swap pods between variants some clan mechs will be crazy flexible. For an example if ones does not like the prime pod of 2 B in the left arm maybe one of the alt versions have a E and a M ... Yoink.. now you move that to your prime and all is good.

So i don´t think that Clan mechs will be all that gimped even if they have their core components locked... And people.... I know i have said this before but it is worth repeating....

NOTHING... IS... SET... IN... STONE... If something does not work it will be tweaked.

[Willard Phule]

Onmyoudo, on 12 May 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

Okay, sure - what you've said is reasonable. However there isn't going to be an 'invasion'; there is no story in MWO. It will be Deathmatch, Deathmatch, new mechs have arrived, Deathmatch and more Deathmatch, so that's what they will (theoretically) be balanced around. So in lore - which has nothing to do with MWO, in the end - all of these things happened, but from the standpoint of an online shooter, you've just got a bunch of new chassis with slightly different mechanics. Maybe that's not what you want but with the way the game is, that's how it has to be.

Standard "if CW were here it might be different" disclaimer that I feel I have to add to too many of my posts.

Oh, I agree but I think it's going to be FAR worse than what you're indicating...which is sort of my point.

MW3 was based in a post-invasion timeline and thus, Omnis were available. MW4 and MW4 Mercenaries were both in a post-invasion timeline and Omnis were available. Neither game was perfect and they both had their problems...but neither of them were plagued with as many broken promises, borked patches, failure to communicate with the community or half-baked ideas that PGI seems to come up with frequently.

As far as Omnis being "overpowered" if things were allowed to be released as per TT rules...lighter weapons with longer ranges and more damage, easily reconfigured chassis (although it COULD be argued that the way PGI allows people to modify their IS mechs, they could be called 'omnis'), faster. And, OH MY GOD, who wants to get dropped into a PUG match and end up against 12 Assault Omnis?

But....I'm thinking that's probably not what would happen. Hardcore IS units (like the Law up there) probably won't allow their people to use Omnis when grouping up or competing or whatever. Solo PUGs...they're the ones most likely to be filling up the servers with Clantech. And...it's possible that with that much of an edge, they might actually stand a chance against some of the IS groups.

I dunno. Again, I have ZERO faith in PGI to do ANYTHING halfway good with the Clans. I expect everything they release to be half-finished, broken and underpowered....which will be followed by an apology stating "we knew it was broken but released it anyway. So solly, Chollie. It's a work in progress and on the list now. See you next year."

[Sable]

It seems like with the little official info they have given us that there is a lot of jump to conclusion thinking. I've seen multiple claims that clains will be dead on arrivial or completely underpowered on release, which is hilariously absurd. Instead of thinking that clan mechs are "supposed" to be super strong maybe people should just think of them as very well designed base models. Take the Timberwolf as an example, whats its strong points as a chassis not as a clan mech. Its got 2 LRM 20s with no minimum range, 2 ER medium lasers, 2 ER large lasers, a pulse laser and 2 machine guns for crittastic close range fun... WHILE running at over 90kph with speedtweak. It wouldn't matter if their weapon damage numbers were exactly the same as IS damage numbers, thats a fantastic loadout in every scenario. I don't plan to change my Timberwolf prime at all. its already that good. And a lot of the clan mechs variants are also desirable. Before posting opinion threads about clan mechs i think everyone should just wait until they are actually here to find out. The DOOMSAYER speak isn't helpful because until we know whats actually customizable and whats not (which personally i thought was clear already) its all worthless speculation.

[Abisha]

likely they give the clan mechs specific designed components.
special made for clan, likely they reduce the slot usage on those items to make them more powerful.
for instance a Clan XL engine use only 2 slots left and right torso.
this might not sounds like Massive Power boost compare to XL engine but fact is, it's Hugh bonus.