43 replies to this topic

[Magna Canus]

From my observation, the fewer missiles you have in the air per volley, the less they spread. This is the main reason behind the 6xLRM5 Catapult and the 5xLRM5 Stalkers besides the constant cockpit shake and steady stream of damage.

The danger inherent in spamming small LRMs is that AMS is more easily able to deal with the missiles and anywhere from 2-3 AMS can completely neuter these builds. BUT, since many opt to not run AMS for the extra ton of ammo, DHS, etc. builds like these are a "relatively save gamble".

Larger volleys spread out more by design, but are harder to counter with AMS, even in larger numbers.

Oh, before I forget, the DPS on multiple, quickly recycling launchers, is also much higher than that of the larger launchers.

[zortesh]

Just wanna play, on 30 May 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Catapault a1 (lrm 5s DO NOT have ANY ghost heat so 1 15+ 2 5s in each arm= 50 no ghost)

I personally dislike catapults which is why i didn't consider that, but you are right... i still think cattapults don't hve the tonnage, orions are better practical missile-boats in my experience.

How much ammo could one jam into that lrm50 catapult neways?

Magnakanus, on 30 May 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

From my observation, the fewer missiles you have in the air per volley, the less they spread. This is the main reason behind the 6xLRM5 Catapult and the 5xLRM5 Stalkers besides the constant cockpit shake and steady stream of damage.

The danger inherent in spamming small LRMs is that AMS is more easily able to deal with the missiles and anywhere from 2-3 AMS can completely neuter these builds. BUT, since many opt to not run AMS for the extra ton of ammo, DHS, etc. builds like these are a "relatively save gamble".

Larger volleys spread out more by design, but are harder to counter with AMS, even in larger numbers.

Oh, before I forget, the DPS on multiple, quickly recycling launchers, is also much higher than that of the larger launchers.

Dps on smaller launchers is quite good, and lrm 5's in particular are basically guaranteed to put all 5 missiles in the ct if the enemy is facing you.

Although larger slower recyling volleys tend to be better in practice since a prolonged lock will only happen against opponents with no idea of how to avoid missiles, or if someone like me is running around in a narc griffin.

[Kjudoon]

JSmith7784, on 14 May 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Will more LRM's hit CT if chain fired than if group fired? Seems like a LRM 40 spreads out more then 2 LRM 20's chain fired?

Chain fire when AMS is light to non existant. Volley fire when they're plentiful. When you chain fire, each AMS has the potential to knock down 4 missiles per unit if half the radius is passed through. (consider a mech standing in front of one being fired on, it has the potential to shoot 8 LRMs down per group. Firing in a chain acts as an AMS multiplier whittling salvos down.

So if you fire 6LRM 10s at a Thunderbolt with dual AMS in chain, only 12 out of the 60 should reach the target. If you do a single volley, 52 will reach the target (Hitting it... meh.)

On the plus side though, you burn through their ammo like crazy, so if you are sparing of your LRMs early while everyone else is blasting away with theirs, you can be a late game titan as the AMS runs dry and you're ready to go.

[Abivard]

Wow, so much bad LRM usage info...

All these posts that say always do this or always do that are going hurt you, LRM's have to many variables for simple cookie cutter answers like that.

The only time you launch large salvos of LRM's at fast mechs is when they are standing still or have only one leg. Otherwise chain fire or do not fire LRM's at fast mechs at all, unless they are running straight towards or away from you.

AMS is not as all powerful as most of these posters seem to think, it takes time for AMS to retarget after it destroys a missile, multiple AMS on mounted on different mechs often targets the same missile. Far more of a chain fire salvo gets through then they think.

The Larger the Salvo the larger the area the total missiles occupy, each missile has it's own unique physical space, missiles do not share the same physical space. I said that in multiple ways because it is so often overlooked.

In the above post, it claims that dual AMS will knock out 8 of 10 missiles, this is incorrect, at best it will take only 6 out of 10, more often it will only take 4 or 5 out of each 10, the amount it shoots down depends on if the AMS mech is moving at speed towards, standing still/slow moving, or moving at speed away from the firing mech.

As I said in my earlier post, there are no simple easy answers to LRM usage, which is why it is the hardest weapon system to master.

[Just wanna play]

Shoots down on average 2 missiles and does .3 damage to a 3rd per ams, to be specific

This pretty smart guy has studied ams, short summary on it as 2nd post in here...
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by Just wanna play, 31 May 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[zortesh]

Yeah I keep having arguments with some there members of my unit on ams... some of them think its absolutely essential and will save your life.. I think even stacked in groups of 8-10 it only gives you a sense of false security, the 1.5 tons could be spent on literally anything else to more benefit.

although i do like my enemies to have ams.. .that way i can fire 1 lrm 5 over the map to get everyones positions.

[RBX]

Chain firing LRMs (particularly smaller launchers) also can prolong that missile lock warning on a mech, which can panick a lot of them and chase them back under a rock. As far as damage goes, it's highly situational which one is better, but I like chain fire better if I'm doing suppressive fire.

[Ursh]

Whatever ELO it is that I play in, hardly anyone ever has AMS. My TAG and direct LOS takes care of the ecm problem. Chainfiring 2xALRM15 and 2xALRM10 on my battlemaster creates so much smoke and shake for the enemy that they find it difficult to return effective fire unless they're also using lrms. I create enough heat leaning on the trigger on chainfire. I only alpha fire the lrms if I'm going after jumpsnipers and can't rely on the lock holding for long.

For fast lights actively trying to dodge, lrms are usually only effective within 300m or so, where they have far less time to juke and jive. Within that range though, you can severely hurt a light with a good volley. Had a situation where a locust was circle-strafing a teammate, so I locked on from about 250m away, waited for him to circle back in my direction, and fired 50 ALRMs with TAG right into his face that instantly evaporated his mech. Would have been more satisfying to do it to a spider, Jenner, or FireStarter, but it's just an illustration of how to use LRMs against a fast light. If they're going perpendicular to you, you'll catch them with some of your missiles, but they'll outrun about half of them if they're moving at top speed. If they're more than 400m away, you'll only hit them if they're narced or just stupid.

[OznerpaG]

i'v been using LRM boats almost exclusively since new years and tried a wide variety of configs to optimize my LRM game

i tried chaining LRMs for a couple of months thinking it was better to unleash a stream of missiles on any target, but as it turns out i on average DOUBLED my damage with the same LRM config by using alpha firing over chaining

that being said, after the initial alpha if the target stays locked i usually fire off my LRMs as fast as they refresh so it turns into kind of a chain fire, and i try to setup my LRM launchers to 'break through' any AMS defenses by using mechs with 4 LRM hardpoints and equipping them with a single LRM15 and triple LRM5s to keep each missile salvo at 15 missiles, to maximize rate of fire, and to keep ghost heat at bay

[Barkem Squirrel]

I had a theory about the tube counts with chain fire that I had to try. I expected a higher KDR due to hitting the mech more often over time, but less damage over all.


Lets begin with how tube count affects the number of times you hit a target.

6 tubes
LRM 15 - Initial fire, 6, 0.5 seconds later 6, 0.5 seconds later 3, 3.25 seconds later restart.
4.25 seconds total or 3 hits
LRM 20 - initial fire, 6, 0.5 seconds later 6, 0.5 seconds later 6, 0.5 seconds later 2, 3.25 seconds later restart
4.75 secons total or four hits
LRM 10 - initial fire, 6, 0.5 seconds later 4, 3.25 seconds later restart
3.75 seconds total or two hits
LRM 5 - initial fire 5 3.25 seconds later restart
3.25 seconts total for one hit

10 tubes
LRM 15 - Initial fire, 10, 0.5 seconds later 5, 3.75 seconds later restart.
4.25 seconds total for two hits
LRM 20 - initial fire, 10, 0.5 seconds later 10, 4.25 seconds later restart
4.75 seconds total or two hits
LRM 10 - initial fire, 10, 3.75 seconds later restart
3.75 seconds total for one hit
LRM 5 - initial fire 5 3.25 seconds later restart
3.25 seconds total for one hit

for 15 tubes
LRM 15 - Initial fire, 15, 4.25 seconds later restart.
4.25 seconds total for one hit
LRM 20 - initial fire, 15, 0.5 seconds later 5, 4.25 seconds later restart
4.75 seconds total or two hits
LRM 10 - initial fire, 10, 3.75 seconds later restart
3.75 seconds total for one hit
LRM 5 - initial fire 5 3.25 seconds later restart
3.25 seconds total for one hit

For 20 tubes
LRM 15 - Initial fire, 15, 4.25 seconds later restart.
4.25 seconds total for one hit
LRM 20 - initial fire, 20, 4.75 seconds later restart
4.75 seconds total for one hit
LRM 10 - initial fire, 10, 3.75 seconds later restart
3.75 seconds total for one hit
LRM 5 - initial fire 5 3.25 seconds later restart
3.25 seconds total for one hit

So now firing in a 3F stalker, 2 x 10 tube and 2 x 6 tube missile hard points. Using 2 LRM 15's and 2 x LRM 10's.
Volley fire for three volleys.
Fire 32 missiles, .5 seconds later 18 missiles, first volley done 3.25 seconds later 12 missiles, .5 seconds later 28 missiles, .5 seconds later 10 missiles, second volley done 2.75 seconds later 12 missiles, .5 seconds later 8 missiles, . 5 seconds later 20 missiles, .5 seconds later 10 missiles, third volley done.
total time: 9 seconds, 150 missiles with 9 periods of hits.

Chain fire
Fire 10 missiles, .5 seconds 5 missiles, .5 seconds 6 missiles, .5 seconds 4 missiles, .5 seconds 6 missiles, .5 seconds 4 missiles, .5 seconds 10 missiles, .5 seconds 5 missiles, 1.25 seconds 10 missiles, .5 seconds 5 missiles, .5 seconds 6 missiles, .5 seconds 4 missiles, .5 seconds 6 missiles, .5 seconds 4 missiles, .5 seconds 10 missiles, .5 seconds 5 missiles, 1.25 seconds 10 missiles, .5 seconds 5 missiles, .5 seconds 6 missiles, .5 seconds 4 missiles, .5 seconds 6 missiles, .5 seconds 4 missiles, .5 seconds 10 missiles, .5 seconds 5 missiles.
Total time: 15 seconds for 150 missiles with 24 periods of hits.
At 9.5 seconds for 110 missiles with 17 periods of hits.

Now using a Jagermech A with 4 LRM 15's with four 15 tube count hard points
volley fire
Fire 60 LRMs, 4.25 seconds later 60 LRMs, 4.25 seconds later 60 LRMs.
Time 8.5 seconds for 180 LRMs with three periods of hits.

Chain fire:
Fire 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, 2.75 seconds later 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, 2.75 seconds later 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs, .5 seconds 15 LRMs
Time 10 seconds, for 180 LRMs with 12 periods of hits.
at 8.5 seocnds 135 LRMs, with 9 periods of hits.

Cat A1 with 6 LRM 5.
Volley
Fire 30, 3.25 seconds, 30, 3.25 seconds.
time for three volleys 6.5 seconds for 90 missiles and three periods of hits.

Chain fire (OMG)
Fire 5,5,5,5,5,5 ,5,5,5,5,5,5 ,5,5,5,5,5,5
9 seconds for 90 missiles with 18 periods of hits
6.5 seconds for 65 missiles with 13 periods of hits.

[Ngamok]

<30 I alpha, >30 I chain fire.

[Randomm]

mailin, on 15 May 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

My favorite lrm build to date is my Stalker with 5 lrm 5s and 2160 missiles. I chain these and I am essentially heat neutral, As far as AMS goes, I have heard that AMS only takes out 5 or so missiles per volley, and I can vouch for the fact that I have seen three different AMS trying to hit my lrms but some are still getting through to my target, which if you think about it is a GREAT way to tear through the enemies' AMS ammo.

Also, lrm 5s chain fired work amazing well on lights out of cover.

My dual AMS mechs with extended AMS range module seems to handle LRM5s to the point of Zero Damage. I do need to get extra AMS ammo as 1ton often only lasts 1/2 a battle. As a target with solid AMS support, I appreciate chain firing LRMs.

[Kjudoon]

Yes randomm, your dual AMS with extended range should take 8-10 missiles per group out of the air if fired at you outside your max range. That's why I fire in groups of 40 at guys like you.

Edited by Kjudoon, 02 June 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[1453 R]

If you want to hit with LRMs, or your goal is only to support your own or your allies’ direct fire with a suppressive LRM screen, then by all means chainfire your missiles. AMS’ll chew ‘em up and you’ll not really take any kills with a constant stream of penny-packet fire, but I won’t argue that newer players are often panicked by a constant stream of missile hits. Every now and again you’ll even catch a player who should’ve known better in a bad position and take him down.

If you want to kill with LRMs? Group fire. Even if it spreads out more, you’re still landing more missiles dead center on the enemy by dint of landing more missiles on the enemy, end sentence. A densely balled-up salvo of TAGemis-equipped LRMs fired from the right position with a direct lock of your own will always always always outperform the same number of missiles fired in 5-pack streams from that Stalker eight hundred meters away slapping meat in his cockpit while throwing LRMs at every indirect target he sees.

There’s a reason I want this thing right here back so bad it physically hurts sometimes. My best pure LRM platforms are still my Trebuchets, simply because the speed and agility they bring to the field let me plant my load right in your sweet spot. Smaller, faster missile spewers with a moderately-sized salvo are better able to take advantage of brief locks and can work to negate an enemy’s cover advantage much better than can a big, lumbering barge of an assault lurmboat. The very instant they release a medium-weight ‘Mech with both LRM-sized missile hardpoints and ECM, let alone one with missile hardpoints, ECM, AND jump jets like my old buddy the Hellspawn there, you can bet your very last dollar that I will be all over it.

Edited by 1453 R, 02 June 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[OznerpaG]

1453 R, on 02 June 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

...
My best pure LRM platforms are still my Trebuchets, simply because the speed and agility they bring to the field let me plant my load right in your sweet spot. Smaller, faster missile spewers with a moderately-sized salvo are better able to take advantage of brief locks and can work to negate an enemy’s cover advantage much better than can a big, lumbering barge of an assault lurmboat
...

precisely my view on a proper LRM hurler, and this is IMO the best mech in MWO to execute that vision

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa9a524778ceac6

it isn't about putting 80 missiles in the air at once, it's about keeping yourself in the best position to keep the rain falling HARD from beginning to match end. took about 70 games to get comfy with it and squeeze out it's max potential, but 2.00 K/D and 400+ average damage/game is decent for a dedicated indirect fire support mech

[Just wanna play]

zortesh, on 30 May 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

I personally dislike catapults which is why i didn't consider that, but you are right... i still think cattapults don't hve the tonnage, orions are better practical missile-boats in my experience.

How much ammo could one jam into that lrm50 catapult neways?

Plenty http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ad6e93cd5b12fc0 and that's just me adding on to stock and if ya need 2500 rounds...and only average 400 dmg, you might not be as good at getting around cover as you would like with that speed............ (and OF COURSE its about throwing up 80 missiles!)

Edited by Just wanna play, 05 June 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[wanderer]

I tend towards 30ish LRMs on my 'Mechs, but I can tell you from tube counts, performance varies.

A Cataphract-2X has 4 tubes per launcher. This means I fire dual 15's as 8-8-8-6 (4-4-4-3 x2). My shots tend to be more focused, but actually have more trouble damaging faster targets/end up with partial hits. My rate of fire is slower than the Orion below. For direct fire, I prefer it as TAG turns those small groups into a very focused series of hits- much like streaming multiple smaller launchers.

An Orion-V has 15 tubes per launcher or more- the same dual 15's fire as a single cloud of 30. This tends to make a less focused hit, but fewer partial lock losses and more damage to faster targets, generally towards the legs. Because all missiles from the launcher clear at once, I reload and fire faster. For indirect fire, I prefer the Orion as when it hits something, it's good at sandblasting armor away for other units while still delivering enough punch to eat through exposed points.

Edited by wanderer, 05 June 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[ExoForce]

Barkem Squirrel, on 02 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

I had a theory about the tube counts with chain fire that I had to try. I expected a higher KDR due to hitting the mech more often over time, but less damage over all.

Lets begin with how tube count affects the number of times you hit a target.
......

First I wanna thank You very much for this analysis, it saved me lots of time and calculations.

Since I am one of the boats from your story, my expirience is: for all except lights first goes alpha to pass AMS, hurt their shield and feelings. Than chain fire to strip components and shake them long enough that teammates can finish them (much more components destroyed with chain than alpha - someting to think about). For lights goes chainfire, it will catch them and slow them down. Also medium fast LRM boat can chainfire and destroy min 4 - 5 turrets in base taking phase before being scratched.

My 1 MC thoughts...

Edit: in PUG games my role as an assault is NOT supporting front lines from behind because most players will NOT recognize given oportunity to finish hurted enemy. I must be in the middle of frontline...

although teammates will protect me...

edit edit: does turret shake being hit by LRMs ?????

Edited by ExoForce, 08 June 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[Trevor Belmont]

I usually chain fire my 4 LRM15 (Artemis) on my Awesome 8R. It has 4x15 tubes.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

JSmith7784, on 14 May 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Will more LRM's hit CT if chain fired than if group fired? Seems like a LRM 40 spreads out more then 2 LRM 20's chain fired?

Yes.

This can be altered by AMS presence, number of tubes per launcher, motion of firer or target.

But essentially, the answer to the first question is yes, and the answer to the second is also yes.





As to the whole argument one way or another about how to use LRMs.... it really depends.

Personally, I run both kinds of missile sets- I have a Stalker, Highlander, Catapult, and Shadow Hawk running around with two fives and two tens each, and an Orion with a quartet of LRM-5s. These 'mechs are for keeping a constant hail on someone, denying them a certain area of the map, coring out larger targets, and firing on smaller targets like light 'mechs without losing missiles because the missile cluster is larger than the target 'mech. It's also vastly less weight-intensive and a much faster refiring missile load. I also have a tri-LRM-15 Orion, a dual-15 Battlemaster, an LRM-15 Raven, a dual-10 Centurion and a pair of LRM-10s on my other Stalker. These missile batches are for firing at larger, slower targets where I'm not going to lose missiles around the edges, where I may want to be damaging side torsos that my allies have stripped of armor, and who can't get out of the way of missiles fast enough for me to want the constant stream. With the larger racks, I can also damage targets around them and be more likely to get some missiles around narrow obstacles like cranes or antennae that are part of the terrain.

Which kind of LRM setup you want is very much dependent on how you prefer to use your LRMs, where you like your LRM-capable 'mech to be, how well it handles things too close for the LRMs, and how good you are at reading the situation and planning your targets in the field. Some people can only really handle one end of the LRM spectrum (be it chain-fired small racks or batch-fired large racks) and others, like me, are comfortable with more varied missile loadouts (I'm not comfortable with -all- loadouts, mind, I tend to shy away from large numbers of large racks mostly because of heat issues and refire rates that are unfriendly to the way I respond to situations mid-game).

I've had a number of fun games where I 5-10-5-10'd or even 5-5-5-5'd my way through enemy AMS fire until I either overwhelmed the AMS with a constant stream of missiles or they ran dry of ammo when the pilots weren't ready for it and I murdered them gleefully, and others where that simply didn't work. Similarly, I've been in situations where the larger racks' area damage and ability to get missiles through larger numbers of AMSes got me useful early damage, and others where the large batches were wasted on the terrain surrounding light 'mechs or the high heat generation shut me down at the wrong moment- or prevented me firing when I really needed to.

Try things, change your 'mech loadouts, and figure out which ones you can make work more easily and which ones give you trouble- and then decide: do you work through the discomfort and poor fit to make the loadouts you don't like to use work well anyway, or do you just not build your 'mechs to function that way? Either answer is perfectly valid, as has been demonstrated to me again and again by myself and other players I've played with.

-QKD-CR0

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 10 June 2014 - 11:45 PM.