133 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Well said sir.

[Vanguard319]

CyclonerM, on 15 May 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

Just throwing in a thought. If you manage to capture a city but then you lose control of it and you are finally forced to evacuate your forces.. How is that a draw? A draw, agreeing to your terms, should have been keeping control of 1 city out of 2,quiaff?

Not necessarily, if the attackers withdrew without suffering significant losses or being destroyed, while the defenders drowned in their own blood repelling them, then it certainly isn't a victory for the defenders is it?

Sry, but this going to be a bit of a rant:

If a galaxy is assumed to be four clusters, and we assume the Falcons are using a typical unit breakdown for a cluster, (Two Omnimech Trinaries [30], an Elemental binary [50], an aerospace binary [20], and a supernova Trinary [15 mechs + 75 Elementals].) then three Galaxies would be 540 mechs, 1,500 Elementals, and 240 fighters.

The ComGuards use hexadecimal-based numbering (A level I is 1 mech, vehicle, fighter or infantry squad, and each subsequent level is six of the previous.) and an Army is referred to as a Level V. (1,296 total units) The Guards use Combined arms tactics, meaning they have mechs with vehicle and infantry support, and some fighters. If we assume 40% of the units in a Level V are mechs,(519 rounded up) with the remainder divided up between vehicles, infantry squads, and fighters. (259 rounded down for each) As two of those armies had already fought other clans during the campaign, and likely had suffered some degree of damage, (we'll assume 66% combat strength to be the bare minimum for a combat ready force) we can conclude that the Comguards committed no less than 4302 mechs, 860 vehicles, 860 squads of infantry, and 860 fighters.

Anyway you look at it, the Jade Falcons probably faced the worst odds out of all the Clans that fought on Tukayyid, outnumbered at least 8 to 1 just in mechs alone.

Now let's look at losses. Some of the units listed I could not find numbers or descriptions to indicate combat losses, for those units, we'll assume that their losses did not exceed 33%.

Clan Jade Falcon
2nd Falcon Regulars - 70%
12th Falcon Regulars - 2 trinaries, plus it's command star
305th Assault Cluster - 1 trinary, 2 binaries
1st Falcon Velites - unknown
89th Strikers - unknown
94th Strikers - unknown
1st Falcon Striker - unknown
124th Striker - unknown
Jade Falcon Guards - heavy

ComGuards
403rd Division - >70%
388th Division - best estimate I could find was heavy
77th Division - 83%, only a level III worth of troops survived the battle
309th Division - 100%, disbanded after battle
104th Division - very heavy, losses include an entire Overlord class dropship full of mechs, and more than a company in Aidan Prydes last stand.
90th Division - extreme, disbanded after the battle
111th Division - extreme, disbanded after the battle
201st Division - very heavy
394th Division - minimal
214th Division - >83% though was rebuilt after battle

Overall, the Falcon's losses were fairly light, with only four clusters taking losses greater than 60%, in addition, Every Jade Falcon unit survived the campaign, and would fight again. The ComGuards lost three entire divisions, and almost every other Division was mauled. Only one unit came out of the battle mostly intact.

Yes, the Falcons were forced to retreat as the result of losing their supply depot, as they no longer had any means to repair and rearm their mechs on planet. Had the depot not been hit, there is no way in hell the ComGuards would have been able to hold the remaining objective, as the Falcons would have eventually won through simple attrition. While the Falcons did not hold the city they captured, the Guards lost so many men trying to hold it, plus the meat grinder that was the withdrawal that calling it a Pyrrhic victory would be generous.

Also by withdrawing, enough of the Falcons survived for the clan to rebuild itself during the truce years, so much that they decisively defeated the ComGuards they fought at Tukayyid in the Great Refusal. Compare to the Smoke Jaguars who sealed their own clan's fate because they wouldn't retreat when their campaign turned against them. Just because you retreat doesn't mean you are defeated, especially if you learn from your mistakes and come back stronger as a result.

That is why the Falcon Campaign is considered a draw.

Edited by Vanguard319, 20 May 2014 - 09:04 PM.

[_Comrade_]

ErikModi, on 20 May 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Uh, no. That's actually, factually false. While the subtext of Ulric and Focht's conversations are certainly open to interpretation, there was no collusion or collaboration between the two of them. They may have been manipulating each other to achieve their own ends (Focht to keep the Inner Sphere in general, and Terra in particular, from being conquered by the Clans, Ulric to stop the Crusader agenda cold in its tracks), but neither of them were working with the other for this case.

I think Elias Crichell and the Jade Falcons would disagree, although no proof they pressed for charges against Ulric, 19 of the khans (the majority of the vote) in the grand council found him guilty of conspiracy against the clans. Although this is more of power move then anything else as an attempt to get Ulric out as ilkhan and replaced with a crusader khan. The fact is that Ulric's main goal was to destroy the crusader political party and given that the majority of the most powerful people in clan society at that time were crusaders including Lincoln Osis, Bjorn Jorgensson, Elias Crichell and even the clan wolf's ristar Vlad Ward. It looked to them as if Ulric set that battle up just to ruin them. So it is a conspiracy, maybe not against all the clans, but against the crusader movement..yes

[Gyrok]

Vanguard319, on 20 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Not necessarily, if the attackers withdrew without suffering significant losses or being destroyed, while the defenders drowned in their own blood repelling them, then it certainly isn't a victory for the defenders is it?

Sry, but this going to be a bit of a rant:

If a galaxy is assumed to be four clusters, and we assume the Falcons are using a typical unit breakdown for a cluster, (Two Omnimech Trinaries [30], an Elemental binary [50], an aerospace binary [20], and a supernova Trinary [15 mechs + 75 Elementals].) then three Galaxies would be 540 mechs, 1,500 Elementals, and 240 fighters.

The ComGuards use hexadecimal-based numbering (A level I is 1 mech, vehicle, fighter or infantry squad, and each subsequent level is six of the previous.) and an Army is referred to as a Level V. (1,296 total units) The Guards use Combined arms tactics, meaning they have mechs with vehicle and infantry support, and some fighters. If we assume 40% of the units in a Level V are mechs,(519 rounded up) with the remainder divided up between vehicles, infantry squads, and fighters. (259 rounded down for each) As two of those armies had already fought other clans during the campaign, and likely had suffered some degree of damage, (we'll assume 66% combat strength to be the bare minimum for a combat ready force) we can conclude that the Comguards committed no less than 4302 mechs, 860 vehicles, 860 squads of infantry, and 860 fighters.

Anyway you look at it, the Jade Falcons probably faced the worst odds out of all the Clans that fought on Tukayyid, outnumbered at least 8 to 1 just in mechs alone.

Now let's look at losses. Some of the units listed I could not find numbers or descriptions to indicate combat losses, for those units, we'll assume that their losses did not exceed 33%.

Clan Jade Falcon
2nd Falcon Regulars - 70%
12th Falcon Regulars - 2 trinaries, plus it's command star
305th Assault Cluster - 1 trinary, 2 binaries
1st Falcon Velites - unknown
89th Strikers - unknown
94th Strikers - unknown
1st Falcon Striker - unknown
124th Striker - unknown
Jade Falcon Guards - heavy

ComGuards
403rd Division - >70%
388th Division - best estimate I could find was heavy
77th Division - 83%, only a level III worth of troops survived the battle
309th Division - 100%, disbanded after battle
104th Division - very heavy, losses include an entire Overlord class dropship full of mechs, and more than a company in Aidan Prydes last stand.
90th Division - extreme, disbanded after the battle
111th Division - extreme, disbanded after the battle
201st Division - very heavy
394th Division - minimal
214th Division - >83% though was rebuilt after battle

Overall, the Falcon's losses were fairly light, with only four clusters taking losses greater than 60%, in addition, Every Jade Falcon unit survived the campaign, and would fight again. The ComGuards lost three entire divisions, and almost every other Division was mauled. Only one unit came out of the battle mostly intact.

Yes, the Falcons were forced to retreat as the result of losing their supply depot, as they no longer had any means to repair and rearm their mechs on planet. Had the depot not been hit, there is no way in hell the ComGuards would have been able to hold the remaining objective, as the Falcons would have eventually won through simple attrition. While the Falcons did not hold the city they captured, the Guards lost so many men trying to hold it, plus the meat grinder that was the withdrawal that calling it a Pyrrhic victory would be generous.

Also by withdrawing, enough of the Falcons survived for the clan to rebuild itself during the truce years, so much that they decisively defeated the ComGuards they fought at Tukayyid in the Great Refusal. Compare to the Smoke Jaguars who sealed their own clan's fate because they wouldn't retreat when their campaign turned against them. Just because you retreat doesn't mean you are defeated, especially if you learn from your mistakes and come back stronger as a result.

That is why the Falcon Campaign is considered a draw.

Actually Clan Wolf faced the combined forces of ComStar that fought on Tukayyid. Because they went last, all the forces used prior were mustered for their battle. This is referenced heavily in Canon, and it talks at length about Focht pulling in units fresh from the other battles to fill holes the Wolves were punching in the ComGuards (not without taking losses of their own, but still inflicting much heavier losses to ComStar).

Additionally, if we go by losses inflicted, it is well documented that Clan Nova Cat actually inflicted the most damage/casualties to ComStar in the campaign...how did they not get awarded a draw based on your same criteria considering they did more with less?

It does not fit. The only reason CJF was ever called a draw is because someone wrote a book about it. Otherwise, they were no better than CSJ or CNC, and lost equally as poorly as those 2 who undebatably did more with less.

Edited by Gyrok, 20 May 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 20 May 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Additionally, if we go by losses inflicted, it is well documented that Clan Nova Cat actually inflicted the most damage/casualties to ComStar in the campaign...how did they not get awarded a draw based on your same criteria considering they did more with less?

It does not fit. The only reason CJF was ever called a draw is because someone wrote a book about it. Otherwise, they were no better than CSJ or CNC, and lost equally as poorly as those 2 who undebatably did more with less.

Also have thought about this. It was obvious when i was a staunch supporter of the Green Sparrows back then - but with the 180° mind change thanks two other novels - i start to think about it.

Again a good example is MWO. We call some battles victory but they are not. Sometimes it looks like 12:3 and you think what a roflstomp - but if the defeated team would have only another lance of Mechs - it would be 12:12 - with only slight damage on the "reinforcements" simple because the "victors" are already as good as dead.
On the other hand even before turrets on assault you have sometimes a Victor - but with the same units in the next battle against the same remaining units of his enemy he wouldn't stand a chance.

So MWO is typical a "Clan" Test. When its over its over no matter if you would win in the next round and so clear that there wouldn't be a third.

So strictly spoken only Clan Wolf did win, you can call it a Draw for Ghost Bear - but a draw is a Defeat for Clans. All other Clans were defeated.
The "reading" to call JF a draw and Ghost Bear a victory is the view of the IS style of combat. With JF resupply and re armored on the Dropships and another "combat drop" right onto their targets would have defeated the remaining ComStar units clearly.

But maybe the NovaCats dealt so much damage - but what remain wasn't able to fight another day.

Offtopic:
I really wish we could have multiple engagements with minor victory conditions with the same team vs the same enemy only with minor rearm and repairs - most current builds will share the same fate of the Clan Expedition on Tukayyid.

Lukoi, on 20 May 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The "good guys" are pretty clearly written of, even the sociopathic Joanna Pryde types. It's a story.

I know that its Fiction - but hell it wouldn't be as half as fun to argue about - when you say its fiction from the beginning.
To think about it as "real" history is much cooler.
So I stay on my argument that the battle reports of Tukayyid were written by Wolves and ComStar - i should know i have read the excerpts of the original battle reports and communication protocols on Jardine

[ErikModi]

Grimwill, on 20 May 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

I think Elias Crichell and the Jade Falcons would disagree, although no proof they pressed for charges against Ulric, 19 of the khans (the majority of the vote) in the grand council found him guilty of conspiracy against the clans. Although this is more of power move then anything else as an attempt to get Ulric out as ilkhan and replaced with a crusader khan. The fact is that Ulric's main goal was to destroy the crusader political party and given that the majority of the most powerful people in clan society at that time were crusaders including Lincoln Osis, Bjorn Jorgensson, Elias Crichell and even the clan wolf's ristar Vlad Ward. It looked to them as if Ulric set that battle up just to ruin them. So it is a conspiracy, maybe not against all the clans, but against the crusader movement..yes

That was certainly their interpretation, and no one is arguing that Ulric Kerensky didn't want the Crusaders stopped. The accusation that he was in collusion with Anastasius Focht to destroy the Crusaders, though, is factually false. From a Crusader perspective, there are many things Ulric Kerensky is guilty of, but actually selling the Clans out to ComStar and formulating battle plans specifically designed to get Crusaders killed lies not among them.

Besides, Ulric didn't HAVE to do anything to hamper the Crusader efforts. They did all that just fine on their own. The only thing he's really guilty of in regards to Tukayyid is essentially telling the Crusaders "Here, have some rope. I recommend not hanging yourselves with it, but that's up to you."

[Gyrok]

ErikModi, on 21 May 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

That was certainly their interpretation, and no one is arguing that Ulric Kerensky didn't want the Crusaders stopped. The accusation that he was in collusion with Anastasius Focht to destroy the Crusaders, though, is factually false. From a Crusader perspective, there are many things Ulric Kerensky is guilty of, but actually selling the Clans out to ComStar and formulating battle plans specifically designed to get Crusaders killed lies not among them.

Besides, Ulric didn't HAVE to do anything to hamper the Crusader efforts. They did all that just fine on their own. The only thing he's really guilty of in regards to Tukayyid is essentially telling the Crusaders "Here, have some rope. I recommend not hanging yourselves with it, but that's up to you."

That is exactly right, on the money. The only thing Ulric could be reasonably construed to legitimately be guilty of...would be leaving them to themselves. Even so...that was the modus operandi for the IlKhan at that time. They were more or less the master negotiator and strategist, not the field level commander for each clan. I suspect he knew the ignorant crusaders would bid dangerously low as it was, I doubt he even bothered to fan any flames to get them to bid away their front line units at all. They were probably all leaping at the chance to give away everything but their command stars.

[Noesis]

[Vanguard319]

Gyrok, on 20 May 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Actually Clan Wolf faced the combined forces of ComStar that fought on Tukayyid. Because they went last, all the forces used prior were mustered for their battle. This is referenced heavily in Canon, and it talks at length about Focht pulling in units fresh from the other battles to fill holes the Wolves were punching in the ComGuards (not without taking losses of their own, but still inflicting much heavier losses to ComStar).

Additionally, if we go by losses inflicted, it is well documented that Clan Nova Cat actually inflicted the most damage/casualties to ComStar in the campaign...how did they not get awarded a draw based on your same criteria considering they did more with less?

It does not fit. The only reason CJF was ever called a draw is because someone wrote a book about it. Otherwise, they were no better than CSJ or CNC, and lost equally as poorly as those 2 who undebatably did more with less.

Just because the Wolves went last does not mean they faced all of Comstar's troops. We just established that The Falcons decimated quite a few of the forces thrown at them, utterly destroying three Divisions. The Nova Cats are noted to have done even more damage, so we can assume most of the forces in that campaign were wiped out or crippled. The Smoke Jaguars Alpha Galaxy refused to withdraw and fought to the death, so we can assume the fight in that campaign was also extremely savage, with many casualties on both sides. The Divisions that got utterly annihilated fighting other clans would obviously not be available as reinforcements, and other units that survived may not be available due to taking enough damage to place them below combat readiness.

Focht certainly did send in troops from the other fronts, he had been doing it throughout the battle, not just with the Wolves, but not even he was going to send in horribly mauled units that needed repair and refit. As it was, the Wolves didn't face the whole of the ComGards as you say, they faced four armies, same as the Falcons. Unlike the Falcons, those four armies were all considered Elite troops, as the Wolves brought their best to the battle, rather than bid away forces like the other clans. Focht of course kept his best, knowing that they would be the toughest campaign. (As it was, one of those Armies was the 11th, who were fresh from the Falcon campaign.)

The Wolves may have won decisively, but it also cost them their senior Khan, 20% of the warriors who participated in the battle, and widened the divide between the Wardens and the Crusaders in the clan, which led to it's eventual split. The Wolves got their victory, but it still cost them quite a bit.

Edited by Vanguard319, 21 May 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Yes they did not fight ALL as in every single unit under Focht's command but they DID fight more than the other Clans because once a unit was functional they were deployed to fight the Wolves. The canon mentions it as Gyrok rightly pointed out.

[VanillaG]

Gyrok, on 20 May 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Actually Clan Wolf faced the combined forces of ComStar that fought on Tukayyid. Because they went last, all the forces used prior were mustered for their battle. This is referenced heavily in Canon, and it talks at length about Focht pulling in units fresh from the other battles to fill holes the Wolves were punching in the ComGuards (not without taking losses of their own, but still inflicting much heavier losses to ComStar).

I don't think that is really accurate. The entire battle lasted 20 days but not all clans were defeated at the end. Here is an excerpt that kind of describes the timeline of when each clan was effectively removed.

Lost Destiny, Chapter 42

Quote

Your troops forced half of the Smoke Jaguars from the field in three days! The rest of them were forced off the planet by the tenth day
....
On the Przeno Plain, the Jade Falcons moved twenty kilometers from their landing sites—and that only because of the Falcon Guards—then became bogged down in a stalemate. They went no further, and had you committed a reserve unit to them, you would have driven them back. By the second week, the Diamond Sharks were ousted from the Kozice Valley. The Ghost Bears held Spanac at the end, but had lost Luk and most of the Seventh Bear Guards. The Nova Cats held the Losije district for all of five days, but lost at Joje and Tost, and eventually were dislodged by your Com Guards. You forced the Steel Vipers from Hladno Springs on day thirteen.

So at the end, the Wolves, Ghost Bears, and Falcons were still engaged with the enemy. The Nova Cats destroyed the units sent against them so they could not be sent as reinforcements. The Diamond Sharks, Steel Vipers, and Smoke Jaguars were all defeated between 10-13 days into the battle. Depending on how far apart the objectives were, those forces might not have been able to reinforce the other battles.

EDIT: I was wrong about this. Forces were redeployed as trials were ended early for the Nova Cats, Ghost Bears and Jade Falcons. It appears that only the Jade Falcons, Diamond Sharks, and Wolves were attacked by redeployed forces as the other trials had already been finished before the other forces could be redeployed.

Edited by VanillaG, 21 May 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Gyrok]

VanillaG, on 21 May 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

I don't think that is really accurate. The entire battle lasted 20 days but not all clans were defeated at the end. Here is an excerpt that kind of describes the timeline of when each clan was effectively removed

Lost Destiny, Chapter 42

So at the end, the Wolves, Ghost Bears, and Falcons were still engaged with the enemy. The Nova Cats destroyed the units sent against them so they could not be sent as reinforcements. The Diamond Sharks, Steel Vipers, and Smoke Jaguars were all defeated between 10-13 days into the battle. Depending on how far apart the objectives were, those forces might not have been able to reinforce the other battles.

This is actually one point I am surprised to see you on the wrong side of the fence on here...I have agreed with nearly everything else you wrote in here.

Canon actually documents on multiple occasions, that any reserve units that fought other clans that were activated went to fill holes in the ComGuards as the Wolves punched holes in their units. Essentially the Wolves completely decimated the ComGuards 10th Army, if I recall correctly, I believe the 1 quote I found referencing specific numbers said something on the order of 2-4 level IIs are all that survived, and they were yanked just in time to be replaced by the 9th Army who completely fresh. There are many other notations of this in Canon, but predominantly, you could run off a list of about 30-40 ComGuard units to run on Tukayyid, and basically the few that did not see at least some action against the wolves were either destroyed in their first battle, or did not fight at all.

[VanillaG]

Gyrok, on 21 May 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

This is actually one point I am surprised to see you on the wrong side of the fence on here...I have agreed with nearly everything else you wrote in here.

Canon actually documents on multiple occasions, that any reserve units that fought other clans that were activated went to fill holes in the ComGuards as the Wolves punched holes in their units. Essentially the Wolves completely decimated the ComGuards 10th Army, if I recall correctly, I believe the 1 quote I found referencing specific numbers said something on the order of 2-4 level IIs are all that survived, and they were yanked just in time to be replaced by the 9th Army who completely fresh. There are many other notations of this in Canon, but predominantly, you could run off a list of about 30-40 ComGuard units to run on Tukayyid, and basically the few that did not see at least some action against the wolves were either destroyed in their first battle, or did not fight at all.

Yeah, I spaced on the fact the other trials were ended early and after looking back through the battles there were forces moved around. Reading back through the thread there is the appearance that the Trials happened one after another and each subsequent Trial snow balled to the next. The battles were run in parallel and in looking through the record, only the Diamond Sharks, Jade Falcons and Wolves were ever attacked by forces assigned to other clans.

In the case of the Wolves they only ever faced 4 armies, the two assigned to them and the 2 freed up after after the Jade Falcons Trial was ended. It could be argued that the armies from the Jade Falcon trial were not full strength so while it sound impressive that they faced 4 armies my guess is that this more likely 3 armies in actual forces.

[Gyrok]

Well, there were forces from the Jade Falcon conflict that fought and other units that were held in reserve for that battle....I think the summation is pretty fair, however, I would remind you that the 10th Army and 9th Army were purportedly the most decorated units available to ComStar, so the fact that they saved the "best for last" should indicate the level of respect they had for Clan Wolf as well...calling in many, many reserves to fill holes was just part and parcel of the battle.