133 replies to this topic

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

So I also have several novels and they are canon. (I will admit my collection has been reduced by a few "loaners") I never never disabused any novel as a canon source. Sarna however is not canon. If you use Sarna and it has a canon source that you check out well thats a fine way to present an argument, but if you have a look at the Sarna for Tukayyid you will see many difference to the Canon so it's not a great resource for people who want to know the canon.

You are wrong from a canon viewpoint on your example of atrocities though.I have not seen anything about a Jag killing civilians in the manner you describe and the very idea of "wasting" Clan resources in such a manner would be strongly against the traditional Jaguar mindset.

Also, neither of the Wolf Commanders that committed the atrocities I mentioned were challenged and disposed of, at least not in Canon.

EDIT: Just for clarity / comparison on the atrocity thing. Perez the SJ Galaxy Commander who ordered the bombardment was challenged by a Star Colonel in his own command and lost his position (life? it's not clear in ICSB pg 56) but Raddick, the CW Star Colonel that razed 2 towns on Memmigen doesn't get a mention from the Khans (at least not in CWSB) and he retains his command and fights at Tukayyid. You're right of course that artocities do happen, but the canon suggests the SJ's were much more concerned with stamping it out than Clan Wolf (although imo it's not for the "right" reasons). An atrocity is an atrocity regardless of its scale and the 'punishment' should be the same. But here's two examples that are very different.

@ Silence Jin Mang, you do realise that you have not yet posted anything about the thread and all you have done is pick a fight over whether people should read it. You're more or less guilty of exactly what you are arguing, you're pushing people to agree with your opinion that they should go and get the canon themselves. Why don't you let other people form their own views yourself?

Turtle Bay. 'nuff said. They weren't punished until the reformed SLDF dealt with them.

[Pariah Devalis]

CyclonerM, on 16 May 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Not every single bloodnamed warrior was a Kerensky, Pryde, Jorgensson or Osis. It is nice to see different and less famous Bloodnames around.

...not so nice when people only recognize the bloodname because of Dark Age, however.

Must be close to 15,000 Kerenskys up in here!

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 May 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Must be close to 15,000 Kerenskys up in here!

Exactly! Indeed, if i will ever have a chance to win one, i would go for Ward or Winson

[Pariah Devalis]

Because Ward is so uncommon, quineg?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 May 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Ulric though was the CiC. His juniour officers (the Khans in this case) might well submit their ideas but it was Ulrics Campaign, Ulric's task, whatever actions took place took place under his orders. The Trial was between Comstar and the Clans as a whole. Ulric was the one who negotiated the terms, not the Khans. (Indeed, at least one GB Khan is down as strongly objecting to the whole idea)

The capture of the cities was not the criteria for the cessation of the battle. They were the framework around which the battle would be fought and would assist in determining the victor. Focht's recordings states the battle would end only when one commander or the other decided his forces could fight no more. As long both sides were prepared to keep going, the battle did not end. Now I'll grant you from a Clan viewpoint, they never considered Comstar retaking a city. Their view was that Comstar would be a walkover and all they had to do was bash them and secure the 12 objective cities. Big mistake in hindsight. But the battle was negotiated to be the destruction of one force or the other.

This was Trial of Possession, not a Trial of Annihilation. Like you said, the cities were the objectives and would determine that the victor after one side conceded but if the first 4 clans would have taken and held their objectived Focht would have most likely conceded the field by that time. That would have meant that 2/3 of his forces were engaged and not making any progress and there was still 3 more clans to drop with fresh troops. Just like how the battle actually ended, both commanders agreed that additional fighting was a pointless waste of resources since the outcome was already determined.

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

As for the underbidding, well there are many examples in canon where Khans and Il Khans have dictated an objective could not be bid or they have set specific forces that they considered essential for the missions success. Ulric did none of this. What canon shows us in one clear example is that Ulric considered logistics to be a fundamental issue for success and yet he placed no requirements on this key aspect of his strategy on any other Clan bar Clan Wolf.

There is a complete definition of the Il Khans role on pg 118 of the Warriors of Keresky Source book (one source) but for space only, it's described as a "War Leader" who "enjoys wide ranging powers in military matters, but not absolute". Basically he is the co ordinator of all the Clans military resources in enacting the Grand Councils directions, but like the Grand Council he cannot interfere with a Clans internal goverance.

Think of it kind of like Eisenhower in WW2. The French, Canadian, British and American governments (the Grand Council) said "here's the troops, now go take the beaches". The difference is Ulric (CiC) took the view that the French, British, Canadian and Americans could decide for themselves which beach they wanted and when they would attack.

While the ilKhan/Khan may put some parameters what is allowed or not allowed, the tactics on how to accomplish the mission are left up the individual battle commanders. This is way of the Clans. Each commander bids what they think is appropriate to accomplish the mission, period. It is then up to them to ensure that they use the appropriate tactics based on what is bid to accomplish the objectives. This was a short battle on one specific planet over 12 cities. Each Khan knew what was defending each target and made bids that they thought be appropriate to take the targets they bid for. To blame the ilKhan for not reigning them is would go against how the Clans have fought trials.

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

As for Leo, no I said he went back and forth but I did not mean in a physical sense (although he may of?). He communicated with his Khans many times (sources across JF, GB and SJ) to check on their progress and make amendments (eg, Rasalhague bidding). By contrast, canon doesn't give any indication of Ulric discussing anything further or issuing any other orders to his Khans bar to retreat (twice). I didn't intend to compare the two Il Khans here but as it was brought up, I expanded.

While Leo was checking up on the Clans, it was more at a strategic level not a tactical level. Even in the Rasalhague bidding, he made the two clans bid against each other but he did not dictate tactics. The Wolves and Ghost Bears we free to take the objective how ever the wanted. You seem to be advocating foe the ilKhan to act in a way that no other ilKhan has acted in regards to tactical actions. Simply put the Crusading clans underbid because of hubris and by failing to take their objectives proved that their viewpoint was wrong by losing on the field of battle. Had they taken the enemy more seriously they most likely would have won.

[Craig Steele]

VanillaG, on 16 May 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

This was Trial of Possession, not a Trial of Annihilation. Like you said, the cities were the objectives and would determine that the victor after one side conceded but if the first 4 clans would have taken and held their objectived Focht would have most likely conceded the field by that time. That would have meant that 2/3 of his forces were engaged and not making any progress and there was still 3 more clans to drop with fresh troops. Just like how the battle actually ended, both commanders agreed that additional fighting was a pointless waste of resources since the outcome was already determined.

I don't know that the canon identifies exactly what sort of trial it was? Whats your source for this?

In any case, as I have said twice (and you quoted) the battle in canon was not for the cities. The battle would not end until one commander or the other decided their troops could no longer fight. The 12 cities were the framework to assit with the determination of the victor, but the battle was one of attrition. Focht's records are quite clear, that the battle would end only when one commander conceded they could fight no longer.

To take an extreme example, had the Clans (or Comstar) held all 12 cities but were wiped out outside the cities and their CiC said,'we cannot fight anymore, we concede", it didn't matter that they held all 12 cities. They had lost regardless. The cities were the framework, not the goal post. That's what Focht says anyway.

If you have some canon that suggests otherwise, I'd be happy to hear. It would certainly change my view of some aspects.

VanillaG, on 16 May 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

While the ilKhan/Khan may put some parameters what is allowed or not allowed, the tactics on how to accomplish the mission are left up the individual battle commanders. This is way of the Clans. Each commander bids what they think is appropriate to accomplish the mission, period. It is then up to them to ensure that they use the appropriate tactics based on what is bid to accomplish the objectives. This was a short battle on one specific planet over 12 cities. Each Khan knew what was defending each target and made bids that they thought be appropriate to take the targets they bid for. To blame the ilKhan for not reigning them is would go against how the Clans have fought trials.

But Il Khan (read Grand Council) was the combatant. Not the individual Khans / Clans. It was the Il Khan who negotiated the trial, the Il Khan who secured the Grand Councils consent. Some Khans (at least one of GB in canon) spoke out against the Trial at Tukayyid, but it was the Il Khans show. The Khans did not bid for the battle against Comstar nor did they have individual Trials. The Il Khan was the sole representaive and accordingly, the battle was on his shoulders.

In at least one case, the Diamond Sharks faced an Army (the 2nd) from another theater. They did not have set opponents, they were not individual trials.

The Khans can not be held accountable for the Il Khans mis management of his own Trial, just like if a Khan bid a Cluster against 16 Clusters to fight a trial of Refusal, it's not the Cluster commanders error the Khan misjudged. The bidder is accountable for the outcomes of their trial, not the soldiers. The bidder claims the glory, the bidder suffers the consequences. That is the Clan way.

VanillaG, on 16 May 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

While Leo was checking up on the Clans, it was more at a strategic level not a tactical level. Even in the Rasalhague bidding, he made the two clans bid against each other but he did not dictate tactics. The Wolves and Ghost Bears we free to take the objective how ever the wanted. You seem to be advocating foe the ilKhan to act in a way that no other ilKhan has acted in regards to tactical actions. Simply put the Crusading clans underbid because of hubris and by failing to take their objectives proved that their viewpoint was wrong by losing on the field of battle. Had they taken the enemy more seriously they most likely would have won.

Again, I don't want to get into a comparison of Il Khans as it's not relevant to the thread content. But the main gist is had Ulric exercised his command perogitives instead of leaving his sub commanders to their own devices, it is likely the outcome of the battle would have been different. The Khan did have certain powers and authorities over the Clans in execution of his duties as Il Khan. Leo Showers is an example of an Il Khan who exercised some of those authorities, Ulric did not show the same apptitude.

Ulric showed very little (if any?) strategic influence on the Tukayyid battle in canon.

Compare Focht's influence on the battle. Who moved troops from one zone to the other, who prepared his troops for a long logistical battle, who gave them prep speeches before the Invasion? Who counselled his troops on the tactics that will bring success? If your point is to compare one CiC to another, Focht is head and shoulders above Ulric as demonstrated in the outcome of the battle.

What I am pointing out (in part) is what the canon reflects, that the Il Khan made minimal strategic influence (if any?) on the battle he negotiated and commanded. Ulric can blame his subordinates all he likes, but the canon is quite clear this was the the Clans Battle, and Ulric's negotiation. It was not the individual Clans, not the the individual Khans.

People can draw their own conclusions and deductions about what might have happened had the Clans been commanded differently, but they do so undertanding where the Clans failed and the command decisions that led to those failures. The most obvious point to examine is the 2 orders Ulric did issue, for the SJ's and GB's to retreat. The armies "freed up" by these two decisions would have an impact on the battles of 3 other Clans, so 5 Clans in total were impacted. 5 of 7 Clans hampered or impacted adversly by the Il Khans orders.

That's what is in canon anyway.

[General Pete]

OK, here's my two cents about Ulric (not that anybody's asking).
Did Ulric rig the battle of Tukayyid to lose to Comstar? I think he did. It's pretty obvious. Dropping the clans one at a time into the meat grinder, no chance to support each other, while Comstar's hands were completely untied to reinforce and overwhelm? No time limit, for a Clan army that was used to an refined dueling system that rarely ever turned into protracted battles? Think of the TImber Wolf and the Mad Dog primes: who designs a mech with 2 lrm 20's with 1 ton of ammo for each launcher only? Somebody who only intends to kill 1 enemy mech, in a duel. Not someone who understands what a 6 day grinder against 10,000 comstar mechs will be like.

Ulric rigged the match to lose it. Is he a traitor? Sure. This is pretty obvious. The real question is why did he do it. And that's because he was a warden, and not a Crusader. The Crusaders wanted to crush the inner sphere and rule over it as conquering masters, secure that the clan society was supreme, and that unwashed IS humanity was fit only to grovel under the truborn's boot. The wardens thought they should help restore order in the IS so they could help the Star League reform (it's collapse was why Kerensky left, and its restoration was his original goal), and return humanity to the golden age it was enjoying before the sucession wars started.
So... what's more important? True to the letter, or to the spirit? Neither answer is the 'right' one. And neither answer is the 'wrong' one either. All the answers are opinion.

My opinion is I'm glad the clans lost Tukayyid, giving humanity 15 years to catch up, counterattack and end the invasion. I remember reading the Aidan Pryde books, there was a chapter where he was secretly reading 'forbidden' texts, which any of us could find today at the library. He would have been shot for posessing those books. I'll buy a Timber Wolf in about a month, to be sure, but I will never join a clan. I dislike totalitarian might makes right freedomless societies where the ruling elite is made up of inbred warmongering 18 year olds. The inner sphere may be Game of Thrones in space, but the Others are piloting Warhawks and Dire Wolfs. So sure, execute Ulric as a traitor. He still accomplished what he thought was right.

[CoffiNail]

Aside from the fact, Ulric has no part in the way the Clans went about it. He was forced by the other Khans to have Wolf drop 5 days after the Trial of Possesion for Terra. I do not know why I would need to source that Craig Steele... here is it none the less.

Quote

"Then we are not fighting only for Tukayyid. Tukayyid is your proxy world for the Terran battle."
Did you expect some preliminary conflict for me to test you first? "Yes, ilKhan, it is our proxy battle. We have no more desire to fight on Terra than you do.

it is fairly common knowledge it is a Trial of Possesion for Terra, not a Trial of Annihilation towards ComStar.

The other Khans wanted Wolf to drop 2 weeks after the battle had started. They bid themselves down and probably Cluster Star Colonels bid lower for the right to participate, or be the first through the dropship. Source for that info is Falcon Guard, Aidan Pryde is constantly being told he cannot proceed first, due to his units lack of honour.

Ulric did know that the chance of the other Khans not adjusting their tactics to tackle ComStar, and that ComStar was a unknown force and that the other Khans looked down on these untested forces. They felt Tukayyid would be like the early sweeps of the Periphery.

The Clans and their Khans, and warriors were the reason they did not succeed in Tukayyid.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Nope, Snow Raven (CSR Mountbatton )

But given all the haters here abouts, I think I'm gunna fly under the Falcons colours just to give them something else to get excited about.

Not the words I would use.

Edited by Nathan K, 16 May 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 16 May 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

I don't know that the canon identifies exactly what sort of trial it was? Whats your source for this?

It was proxy battle for the possesion of Terra.
From Lost Destiny, Chapter 24

Quote

Focht clasped his hands at the small of his back. "We will be defending Tukayyid with approximately fifty BattleMech regiments and appropriate air, artillery, armor, and infantry support. We have chosen not to use naval units because Tukayyid’s surface water is limited and naval engagements would unnecessarily endanger the underwater city in the Crucible Sea."
Ulric appeared momentarily stunned by the declaration of ComStar’s strength. "Fifty regiments?"
Focht nodded solemnly. "That is everything ComStar has, save the two ‘Mech divisions on Terra itself. The Primus was disinclined to have her bodyguard units sent away."
"Then we are not fighting only for Tukayyid. Tukayyid is your proxy world for the Terran battle."
Did you expect some preliminary conflict for me to test you first? "Yes, ilKhan, it is our proxy battle. We have no more desire to fight on Terra than you do. If you take Tukayyid, in addition to caring for the population of the planet, we will cede to you Terra and all our facilities in your Occupation Zones. We will continue to administer your worlds for you and our revenues will become yours. If so ordered, we will cease all services for the Successor States. We will order our staffs to become integrated with your forces and, in effect, we will become part of the Clans—if you will have us."
....
The Wolf Clan Khan scanned the Tukayyid data again. "What is the time-frame for this fight?"
"The start of May?"
"That is within operational possibilities. When the Clans have chosen the units that will assault Tukayyid, I will relay that information to you."

Craig Steele, on 16 May 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

But Il Khan (read Grand Council) was the combatant. Not the individual Khans / Clans. It was the Il Khan who negotiated the trial, the Il Khan who secured the Grand Councils consent. Some Khans (at least one of GB in canon) spoke out against the Trial at Tukayyid, but it was the Il Khans show. The Khans did not bid for the battle against Comstar nor did they have individual Trials. The Il Khan was the sole representaive and accordingly, the battle was on his shoulders.

In at least one case, the Diamond Sharks faced an Army (the 2nd) from another theater. They did not have set opponents, they were not individual trials.

The Khans can not be held accountable for the Il Khans mis management of his own Trial, just like if a Khan bid a Cluster against 16 Clusters to fight a trial of Refusal, it's not the Cluster commanders error the Khan misjudged. The bidder is accountable for the outcomes of their trial, not the soldiers. The bidder claims the glory, the bidder suffers the consequences. That is the Clan way.

If you look at the above quote and the one from earlier post, the ilKhan brought the proposal to the Grand Council and after debate they approved the conditions of the trial. The was the Grand Council's trial, not the ilKhan's.

The ilKhan set the parameters of what he thought they needed to win and the Khans then bid among themselves as to how win the trial. They chose to divide the objectives among the various clans to take and hold and also bid to see who would land first. None of this is out of the ordinary for how bidding occurs.

These were not some Star Captains straight from the sibko, these were the Khans that were running a campaign that was rapidly conquering worlds across the Inner Sphere. To imply that the ilKhan needed to hold their hands and tell them how to run their part of the battle is a little far fetched. They all knew what was on the line but their own hubris lead them to believe that Comstar would be cakewalk.

By your own account, when the ilKhan gave strategic advice to the Smoke Jaguars to pull back to their dropships, half of the force disobeyed him and continued fighting. You could infer that based on this the ilKhan felt that any more advice would be met with the same resistance and would increase the likelihood that the Clans would be defeated.

Edited by VanillaG, 16 May 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[Craig Steele]

CoffiNail, on 16 May 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Aside from the fact, Ulric has no part in the way the Clans went about it. He was forced by the other Khans to have Wolf drop 5 days after the Trial of Possesion for Terra. I do not know why I would need to source that Craig Steele... here is it none the less.

it is fairly common knowledge it is a Trial of Possesion for Terra, not a Trial of Annihilation towards ComStar.

The other Khans wanted Wolf to drop 2 weeks after the battle had started. They bid themselves down and probably Cluster Star Colonels bid lower for the right to participate, or be the first through the dropship. Source for that info is Falcon Guard, Aidan Pryde is constantly being told he cannot proceed first, due to his units lack of honour.

Ulric did know that the chance of the other Khans not adjusting their tactics to tackle ComStar, and that ComStar was a unknown force and that the other Khans looked down on these untested forces. They felt Tukayyid would be like the early sweeps of the Periphery.

The Clans and their Khans, and warriors were the reason they did not succeed in Tukayyid.

AFAIK there is no "proxy Battle" Trial in canon.

It could have been a Trial of Possession or a Trial of Greivance, but a Trial of Annhiliation is only inter clan unless things have changed. BUt do you have a source that specifically identifies the Trial type?

As for the bidding, the OP did highlight that it occurred. What many people skip over is that it was a direct contributor to the Clans loss and it did not need to happen. The Il Khan has the authority to set forces for his Trial, he is the ultimate authority. The Khans do not out rank him. As you identify in the Falcon Trilogy example above, Aidan's CO set the rules and Aidan as the subordinate officer obeyed them. Ulric let his subordinates go ham.

The alternative is Ulric thought the bid down forces were sufficient to secure victory and he just got it wrong, not the great commander that some people portray him as then. There might be some truth in this as canon shows us that Ulric's record when commanding major conflicts seems pretty spotty.

VanillaG, on 16 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

It was proxy battle for the possesion of Terra.
From Lost Destiny, Chapter 24



If you look at the above quote and the one from earlier post, the ilKhan brought the proposal to the Grand Council and after debate they approved the conditions of the trial. The was the Grand Council's trial, not the ilKhan's.

The ilKhan set the parameters of what he thought they needed to win and the Khans then bid among themselves as to how win the trial. They chose to divide the objectives among the various clans to take and hold and also bid to see who would land first. None of this is out of the ordinary for how bidding occurs.

These were not some Star Captains straight from the sibko, these were the Khans that were running a campaign that was rapidly conquering worlds across the Inner Sphere. To imply that the ilKhan needed to hold their hands and tell them how to run their part of the battle is a little far fetched. They all knew what was on the line but their own hubris lead them to believe that Comstar would be cakewalk.

By your own account, when the ilKhan gave strategic advice to the Smoke Jaguars to pull back to their dropships, half of the force disobeyed him and continued fighting. You could infer that based on this the ilKhan felt that any more advice would be met with the same resistance and would increase the likelihood that the Clans would be defeated.

The Il Khan is the Grand Councils representative in Military matters, he has the Grand Councils authority. His job (that he swore on his bloodright to execute faithfully) is to bring the Grand Councils military plans to a successful completion.

There is no scenario where the Il Khan is seperate in canon. The Il Khan has no purpose except to bring about the Grand Councils will (in military matters)

I suspect the results of the battle tells us that perhaps the Khans were requiring someone to "hold their hands" if that's the terminology you wish to use. The Grand Council certainly thought so before Operation Revivial commenced, and they still thought so for the battle of Tukayyid, that's why they appointed / voted an Il Khan to co ordinate the battles. The Il Khan is not some cermonial figurehead with no responsibility, he is there for a reason.

PS, Canon doesn't say Ulric gave "strategic advice" to the Smoke Jaguars, it says he ordered them to retreat. A better strategic decision at this juncture might have been to reinforce the SJ's breakthrough with another Clan that was targeting 2 unimportant cities (like umm, say Clan Wolf?). That's what Focht showed several times during the campaign, a willingness to redeploy troops to acheive his goals.

[CoffiNail]

... Source... The whole point of operation Revival IS a trial of possession for Terra. Quiaff? I posted my quote towards proxy.

The conversation between Ulric and Focht before the batchall started.

[Uncle Totty]

CoffiNail, on 16 May 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

... Source... The whole point of operation Revival IS a trial of possession for Terra. Quiaff? I posted my quote towards proxy.

The conversation between Ulric and Focht before the batchall started.

But it is not from Craig's "True Canon".

[Craig Steele]

CoffiNail, on 16 May 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

... Source... The whole point of operation Revival IS a trial of possession for Terra. Quiaff? I posted my quote towards proxy.

The conversation between Ulric and Focht before the batchall started.

How can that be?

Any Clan Trial requires both parties to agree to the Trial terms (well, except for Annhilation), the IS didn't even know the Clans existed let alone agree to the objectives of operation Revivial.

The ultimate point of Operation Revivial was to destroy the leadership (read Successor Lords) of the Inner Sphere, that was Kerensky's vision. That the Clans would return and lead humanity themselves.

Ulric and Focht negotiate a proxy battle deep into the campaign, they do discuss it being a preferred place to fight other than on Terra itself.

The discussion has attributes of both a Trial of Possession and a Trial of Greivance. Possession in the sense that Terra would change hands, Grievance in the sense that the battle would not end until one side acknowledged they could fight no longer. A Trial of Grievance can have isorla and a Trial of Possession can be to the death of the combatants. They are not mutually exclusive.

I can discern the Comstar vs Clan battle was a Trial, but I cannot be sure what type of Trial it was from that source. It may well have been a Trial of Possession, I'm just asking if you have a clear canon source before we proclaim it so.

Nathan K, on 16 May 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

But it is not from Craig's "True Canon".

Is there such a thing as "False Canon"?

[General Pete]

Craig Steele, on 16 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

How can that be?

Any Clan Trial requires both parties to agree to the Trial terms (well, except for Annhilation), the IS didn't even know the Clans existed let alone agree to the objectives of operation Revivial.

The ultimate point of Operation Revivial was to destroy the leadership (read Successor Lords) of the Inner Sphere, that was Kerensky's vision. That the Clans would return and lead humanity themselves.

Ulric and Focht negotiate a proxy battle deep into the campaign, they do discuss it being a preferred place to fight other than on Terra itself.

The discussion has attributes of both a Trial of Possession and a Trial of Greivance. Possession in the sense that Terra would change hands, Grievance in the sense that the battle would not end until one side acknowledged they could fight no longer. A Trial of Grievance can have isorla and a Trial of Possession can be to the death of the combatants. They are not mutually exclusive.

I can discern the Comstar vs Clan battle was a Trial, but I cannot be sure what type of Trial it was from that source. It may well have been a Trial of Possession, I'm just asking if you have a clear canon source before we proclaim it so.




Is there such a thing as "False Canon"?

Craig, you're right that operation revival was meant to smash the sucessor lords, but the Clans were split as to why they were doing it- the Crusader clans did want to conquer and rule the sphere themselves, while the Wardens wanted to re-establish the Star League, a form of government that wasn't necessarily Clan based, but was what kerensky originally wanted to restore.

As for the type of trial, isn't it possible for opposing sides to view a trial differently? The Clans seeing it as a Trial of posession, and Comstar treating it as a Trial of grievance, or better yet, a trial of refusal? They were fighting to stop the invasion, after all, not to gain a planet or anything...

[Jaroth Corbett]

Just when I thought I was out.................

No Pete, Craig is WRONG once again. Operation Revival was NEVER meant to crush the Successor States or eliminate the House Lords, if it was then it would have been prosecuted like Klondike; all the Clans attack all of the Inner Sphere. During Revival, the Capellan Confederation was never touched.

Quote

Romano pulled herself erect. "So this is it, then? You all unite against me! Very well. I shall deal with the Clans when they set foot in my realm, and not before." With that, she turned on her heel and stalked from the room. Stunned, the rest of her entourage followed slowly. Kai noticed Isis Marik watching Sun-Tzu intently, and he saw his cousin nod to her as he walked past.

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

The FWL also was not invaded. It was because of this, that the FWL was able to successfully ship the field modification kits unmolested to the Successor States that were actually fighting.

The goal of Revival was Terra.



The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.21



Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.46

Quote

She smiled confidently. "Believe me, ilKhan, you have the troops and experience necessary to take Tharkad."

Ulric nodded. "Oh, I believe you, but taking Tharkad would deflect us from our goal and that I cannot allow to happen."

The Primus frowned and shot a quick, reproving glance at the Precentor Martial. "Your goal?"

"You did not know?" Ulric feigned great surprise while the Precentor Martial's expression changed to pure puzzlement. "You truly do not know?"

The Primus shook her head. "I do not."

A predatory smile flashed across Ulric's face at Myndo's petulant tone. "Our goal is the conquest of Terra, my dear Primus. It was once the seat of the Star League, and it will belong to the Star League again. This is our will, our goal, and no one in the Inner Sphere can stop us from achieving it."

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

From sourcebooks AND a novel. Argue with the canon now, Craig.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 May 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 16 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Is there such a thing as "False Canon"?

Actually, in a sense, there is. I have read there are some canon publications that describe events from the PoV of a certain faction (say ComStar) and ignore events we know from the novels or other publications or see events in a different light.

[General Pete]

Jaroth, you're right that the specific goal of the invasion was to take Terra. The 4 invading clans were racing to reach it 1st, to establish which one of them would be the IL Clan, forever set above the other clans (obviously something every clan wanted). But taking Terra was supposed to help reestablish the Star League, which would have put an end to the sucession wars. Marki and Liao weren't attacked cause they were on the other side of Terra, hiding behind the FedCom and Drac territories. If the Clans had been coming from the other end, it would have been Liao and Maric getting shredded. I think it was Fed Com and Kurita cause they were much more popular in the fiction...

[Jaroth Corbett]

No it was that way because that is the route General Kerensky & the SLDF used for the Exodus. They simply came in the same way they went out.

Quote

Prince Haakon Magnusson of the Free Rasalhague Republic angrily raised a clenched fist. "Then I have you to blame for the Clans half-devouring my nation!" Magnusson, a silver-haired man who was neither tall nor particularly strong, put all his strength into the emotion that accented his words. "Was the Rasalhague Republic the choice target for the assault because we are a young nation or was it our reputation for disliking mercenaries?"

Wolf held up his hands to forestall other shouted questions. "Stop! You misinterpret my words." The diminutive mercenary turned to face Magnusson. "The Dragoons had nothing to do with the Clans' choice of targets. They are merely following the same route back into the Inner Sphere by which they left it. The Free Rasalhague Republic just happens to inhabit that slice of known space."

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 May 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[General Pete]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 May 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

No it was that way because that is the route General Kerensky & the SLDF used for the Exodus. They simply came in the same way they went out.



Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

Yes, that's true- my point was that the authors writing the books chose that as kerensky's route because the story was more invested in characters in FedCom and Kurita territories than in Marik or Liao. Steiner and Kurita were more popular and got more 'face time' in the books.