111 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 May 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

How is this any different than a pre-made of PPC/UAC5 Victors coming in and meta-stomping some pugs?

Or a bunch of organized PPC/AC/20 Victors?

Or some well organized dual AC/20 Jagers?

Or a swarm of Jenners working as a team?

Oh, but it's only LRMs that bother you, even though they are the one weapon that is actually fairly easy to deal with unless you are a derp.

If it was 8 small laser Blackjacks, he'd find a way to complain about it.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Lyoto Machida, on 19 May 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

If it was 8 small laser Blackjacks, he'd find a way to complain about it.

8 Small Laser Blackjacks...when your pre-made wants to put the fear of god into Lockwoodx.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 19 May 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Halcyon201, on 19 May 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Remove linked target data for locking.
That means only lasing and NARCs will let LRMs target and track without line of sight.

Getting red triangles popping up every 5 seconds from friendly targeting when no lasing is being used is pointless if a TAG is also in the game.

It's frustrating when you're taking cover from LRM spam and a light runs around you with no TAG and yet missiles are hitting you from 800m away with no line of sight.
This isn't balanced.

My suggestion? Get your team to grow a pair, hump around the ridge and kill them. LRMboats are notoriously ineffective at CQB.

[Xoxim SC]

My personal biggest gripe with LRMs is that it takes away from brawling, which is what I thought Mechwarrior was supposed to be about. Not jump sniping like I'm playing a FPS, I'll go play Call of Duty with a bunch of snot nosed brats if I want that type of game play, or hiding behind buildings playing peek-a-boo until LRM boats run out of ammo.

If there was a guarantee that you always dropped with at least one ECM mech, or had access to passive radar it wouldn't be that bad, since you'd be able to charge in and actually brawl once in awhile, but for the most part when I'm in my Hunchback or Centurion I find myself sitting on my hands and waiting.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Todd Lightbringer, on 19 May 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

My personal biggest gripe with LRMs is that it takes away from brawling, which is what I thought Mechwarrior was supposed to be about. Not jump sniping like I'm playing a FPS, I'll go play Call of Duty with a bunch of snot nosed brats if I want that type of game play, or hiding behind buildings playing peek-a-boo until LRM boats run out of ammo.

If there was a guarantee that you always dropped with at least one ECM mech, or had access to passive radar it wouldn't be that bad, since you'd be able to charge in and actually brawl once in awhile, but for the most part when I'm in my Hunchback or Centurion I find myself sitting on my hands and waiting.

You think LRMs with their 180m min range and travel time WITH warning take away from Brawling? Not the FLD meta with UAC5's and PPC's? Not the fact that SRM hit registration is still borked a year later? No? It's LRMs that killed brawling?

[Apnu]

LRMs are fine. Sure I have matches there there's a preponderance of LRMs, I have matches where both sides (including me) are heavily LRM based which is hilarious to witness.

Here's the thing about LRMs, and a few have said some of this already:

LRMs require lock, with ECM in this game, holding lock is very difficult unless you bring your own TAG and have LOS to the target in the TAG's range and you can hold that TAG long enough for a few salvos.

LRMs are dependent on members of the other team holding target locks for you.

LRMs are pretty slow and most lights can out run them, or at least get to cover fast enough to nullify them.

LRMs also do spread damage, unlike the AC5+PPC meta or the AC/<anything> and/or PPC and/or GR meta.

LRMs are the only weapon that have another system designed to nullify them: AMS. There's no reactive or reflective armor in this game. SRMs move too fast for AMS to hit, and ECM really spoils the LRM boater's day -- more so than any other play-style in the game.

LRMs have a minimum range of 180m, get inside that and the LRM boat is probably going to die. Unless they're smart and pack some decent secondary weapon systems (probably lasers), but even then, the LRM boat's at a disadvantage and is just waiting for an ammo explosion.

With the exception of an ammo explosion, none of the above is true for any other weapon system in the game. Especially the direct fire weapons which are king now. But no other weapon system packs as many disadvantages and rules than LRMs. The only system that could be worse than LRMs are SRMs, but that's temporary. Once they fix the hit detection system for them, we're going to see a return of brawling like never before. And LRMs, again, will go back to being a garbage weapon system.

LRMs don't need a nerf.

I'm not a high Elo player, I'm in the middle of the pack and haven't moved since Elo's been put in. LRMs aren't a problem for me. Contrary to popular belief, there is a bit of skill needed to run LRMs effectively. Especially if you're playing solo. Many LRM boats don't have that skill and just spam them until they're out of ammo, its sad but true. I enjoy the AC+PPC meta and I also enjoy my LRM boats. My point is, I see LRMs from both perspectives and have no problem with where they are right now.

Here's how to deal with LRMs w/out having to call for a nerf:

* Change your game.

* Change your position.

* Stay near cover, pop out, fire, get back into cover. (AKA 'hill humping') Just as you would in a real firefight.

* Advance to the next bit of cover, never ever wander out in the open. If you do that, you can only blame yourself when you die.

* Don't chase the light. See the above point.

* Want to lose the lock on you? Find good cover and power down for a few seconds. Or just find good cover, something 2x taller than you, and wait for them to move on to some other target. Then close in and finish them.

* Call out to your team where you think the LRMs are, let the lights and over fast movers get in there and disrupt them, giving you time to advance. Trust me, the fast movers love that stuff.

* Have an ECM equipped mech on your team, stick to it. Nothing annoys a LRM boater more than 12 mechs clustered around one Atlas DDC.

In fact, if you do the above stuff in any mech, packing any combination of weapon systems, you will win more than you lose. And if your team loses, it probably won't be your fault.

Combat awareness, skill, and decisions win the day in every MWO game.

Edited by Apnu, 19 May 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Dymlos2003]

Red Triangles and shared target info should be a C3 thing. Want that ability equip a c3. Sounds good to me.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Dymlos2003, on 19 May 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Red Triangles and shared target info should be a C3 thing. Want that ability equip a c3. Sounds good to me.

Sorry, that is slated for a 2032 release.

[Dymlos2003]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 May 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Sorry, that is slated for a 2032 release.

And this is why we can't have good convos for dumb ass remarks like this all over the forums. Leave if you hate the game so much.

[Merrick]

pretty sure that was humor... I laughed

[Dymlos2003]

Merrick, on 19 May 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

pretty sure that was humor... I laughed

It's putting a negative light on PGI cause he hates them so much thus continuing the toxicity in the forums. Should learn to shut it ya know? If people would just stop being so cynical. (Rather annoying since they're at every game forum I am on)

[Apnu]

Dymlos2003, on 19 May 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Red Triangles and shared target info should be a C3 thing. Want that ability equip a c3. Sounds good to me.

It depends on if you're coming from a TT rule set or not.

On the TT, everybody could see every mech and even see what that mech's status was at any time. (unless running a campaign with shut down mechs at the start.)

C3 gave the players the ability to share targeting info. So if you had C3 on a HBK and CPLT (boating LRMs) the CPLT could use the HBK's targeting info (distance and terrain in-between) instead of its own targeting info.

MWO does things very differently. We sort of have C3, and we sort of don't. We can't see of know of a mech unless some other member of our team has a LOS on that mech. But ECM disrupts that affect and in the TT that's what ECM breaks (among other things like Artemis), so does that mean we all have C3 already? Or is PGI just doing something else and threw the whole ECM/C3/Artemis thing out the window and made up their own stuff?

If that's the case, why even talk about C3?

Its confusing.

[Merrick]

Dymlos2003, on 19 May 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

It's putting a negative light on PGI cause he hates them so much thus continuing the toxicity in the forums. Should learn to shut it ya know? If people would just stop being so cynical. (Rather annoying since they're at every game forum I am on)

I am all for a less toxic forum, but asking modern society to not be cynical is like trying to explain space flight to a 4th century catholic, it's just going to end badly.

[Dymlos2003]

Apnu, on 19 May 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

It depends on if you're coming from a TT rule set or not.

On the TT, everybody could see every mech and even see what that mech's status was at any time. (unless running a campaign with shut down mechs at the start.)

C3 gave the players the ability to share targeting info. So if you had C3 on a HBK and CPLT (boating LRMs) the CPLT could use the HBK's targeting info (distance and terrain in-between) instead of its own targeting info.

MWO does things very differently. We sort of have C3, and we sort of don't. We can't see of know of a mech unless some other member of our team has a LOS on that mech. But ECM disrupts that affect and in the TT that's what ECM breaks (among other things like Artemis), so does that mean we all have C3 already? Or is PGI just doing something else and threw the whole ECM/C3/Artemis thing out the window and made up their own stuff?

If that's the case, why even talk about C3?

Its confusing.

To add more customization I guess. Like making the command module required to use arty strikes and UAV type of modules.

[Pale Jackal]

LRM spam can be useful, but it's also the only weapon system that can be significantly hampered by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment. Sure, I can have TAG, but that means I now need to expose myself to gain LOS and your sniper weapons will hit me before I hit you.

I kind of like how LRMs are right now. My Founder's Catapult C1 is actually a good 'mech, but my 3 UAC5 Ilya Muromets is still more reliable. I have good games with both my Ilya and C1, but my C1 is much more likely to have awful games. Similarly, my CTF-3D or HGN-733C is going to generally perform better than my C1 as well.

I would get behind a change that nerfed ECM and LRMs though. I love that ECM is so potent, but I hate that it's so light that the equipping 'mech effectively sacrifices nothing.

[Apnu]

Dymlos2003, on 19 May 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

To add more customization I guess. Like making the command module required to use arty strikes and UAV type of modules.

Agree. I think targeting in MWO isn't anything like the TT and PGI is doing their own thing here. Although I can't imagine what they'll do with the Command Module or C3, given what we've got so far.

Pale Jackal, on 19 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I would get behind a change that nerfed ECM and LRMs though. I love that ECM is so potent, but I hate that it's so light that the equipping 'mech effectively sacrifices nothing.

I dunno about that. ECM has a hard point, its 2 crit. slots and can only be on a handful of mechs. Only one of which is a powerhouse that takes a ton of killing to put down. Ravens, spiders and cicadas? Not so much. 1.5 tons on a spider is a lot of tonnage given up to a non-lethal bit of tech.

[Dymlos2003]

Apnu, on 19 May 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Agree. I think targeting in MWO isn't anything like the TT and PGI is doing their own thing here. Although I can't imagine what they'll do with the Command Module or C3, given what we've got so far.




I dunno about that. ECM has a hard point, its 2 crit. slots and can only be on a handful of mechs. Only one of which is a powerhouse that takes a ton of killing to put down. Ravens, spiders and cicadas? Not so much. 1.5 tons on a spider is a lot of tonnage given up to a non-lethal bit of tech.

Same I just want the CW bottleneck to be gone with so we can finally have the polish.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Dymlos2003, on 19 May 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

And this is why we can't have good convos for dumb ass remarks like this all over the forums. Leave if you hate the game so much.

The reason we have these remarks is....we've had this conversation about 30,000 times in the boards. With the same people chiming in the same things "PLEASE ADD C3 SO LRMS NEED ANOTHER PIECE OF EQUIPMENT".

Without understanding what C3 really did in Tabletop. Apnu explained it very well. It's a silly thing to ask for and it won't happen.

These guys just need to learn to use proper cover.

[Dymlos2003]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 May 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

The reason we have these remarks is....we've had this conversation about 30,000 times in the boards. With the same people chiming in the same things "PLEASE ADD C3 SO LRMS NEED ANOTHER PIECE OF EQUIPMENT".

Without understanding what C3 really did in Tabletop. Apnu explained it very well. It's a silly thing to ask for and it won't happen.

These guys just need to learn to use proper cover.

You just need to stop being so hostile and negative everywhere you go. Abnu and I were having a nice convo about things.

I don't even care about LRMS I use them and know how to use them. C3 is a piece of equipment in BT lore so trying to find a way to add it in to MWO. Adds customization options while hindering boating. Win win to me.

[Corbon Zackery]

The easy way to some what fix it is to split of missile hard points between SRM and LRM. Also limit the amount of ammo that is stored to 4 tons or less.

So using a Stalker as a example.
2 SRM missile hard points
2 LRM Hard points.


Same with theBLR-1s

A1 would have:
4 LRM hardpoints
2 SRM hardpoints

This diversities the build more and forces LRM boats to use the heavy LRM 20. Rather than Spam shooting 6 LRM 5 link fired.

I would also add a mode selector for direct and indirect fire.

The missile angles are also screwed up when spotted by a light. Downward slop of the missiles ignores most terrain.