83 replies to this topic

[Mordin Ashe]

HBizzle, on 19 May 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

Basically the OP wants this

but with mechs, which doesnt represent mechanized combat for the last 50 years at all.

You know that in the picture you have at least 4 viable weapon types, all being used and effective? In MWO we have PPCs and ACs in one setup, meaning only one valid configuration. Not much, and much less that is on that picture.

[HBizzle]

Mordin Ashe, on 19 May 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

You know that in the picture you have at least 4 viable weapon types, all being used and effective? In MWO we have PPCs and ACs in one setup, meaning only one valid configuration. Not much, and much less that is on that picture.

:FACEPALM:

[Karl Streiger]

HBizzle, on 19 May 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Newbie crying about combat tactics. LOL

Combat Tactics?
Do you want to see some combat tactics - go to Twich look the vid of the blood pearls vs fallen 13.... there you see "real" tactic committed by the Fallen 13. This should have been a Crossing-T maneuver - didn't work so well but in the end it didn't matter.

HBizzle, on 19 May 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

but with mechs, which doesnt represent mechanized combat for the last 50 years at all.

HBizzle, on 19 May 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

:FACEPALM:

Facepalm your self - Mechs are not infantry or tanks - you have to compare them with ships of the line or cavalry at best.
The only reason that didn't work so well - simple because PGI placed us in a bowl.
With real open terrain maps - 99% of what you guys call tactic would not work. You dig in - and hide - no problem thx for the initiative - we are now capturing your supply.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 19 May 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

And none of those shooters are fun. Nobody wants to play a shooter where everyone hides behind cover with their sniper rifles that kill you no matter what part of your body they hit you in.

The FPS games that are the most fun are the ones where most players use shotguns or assault rifles at short to medium range and you dont have to hide in cover perpetually in fear of sniper rifles.

I'm confused... I have fired Shotguns both in the Marines and as a security guard... Sniper rifles kill you clean and shot guns make into a Big Mac. both leave you quite dead. and last time I fires an assault rifle I was mashing head shots on the rifle range at 500M. If I am playing a combat game... I damn well better feel like its a combat situation. I guess I was right to not get into SoCom and other "Combat" games. I would be sorely disappointed.

Karl Streiger, on 19 May 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

Combat Tactics?
Do you want to see some combat tactics - go to Twich look the vid of the blood pearls vs fallen 13.... there you see "real" tactic committed by the Fallen 13. This should have been a Crossing-T maneuver - didn't work so well but in the end it didn't matter.





Facepalm your self - Mechs are not infantry or tanks - you have to compare them with ships of the line or cavalry at best.
The only reason that didn't work so well - simple because PGI placed us in a bowl.
With real open terrain maps - 99% of what you guys call tactic would not work. You dig in - and hide - no problem thx for the initiative - we are now capturing your supply.

Mechs are ground units and need to be compared to Tanks or infantry. If we were Naval then ships of the line would be a good measuring stick.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 May 2014 - 01:35 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Mechs are ground units and need to be compared to Tanks or infantry. If we were Naval then ships of the line would be a good measuring stick.

Only because we have not natural amount of cover to hide even Gozilla - even in Arma3 or before in Arma2 or Arma or OPF I didn't have such a sheer number cover that did stop bullets (and there i was in the infantry or the armored cavalry)

If fight on open maps - like caustic or alpine naval manouvers or medieval cavalry tactics work, if they don't this is not a BattleTech Game -> simple logic

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 May 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 20 May 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

Only because we have not natural amount of cover to hide even Gozilla - even in Arma3 or before in Arma2 or Arma or OPF I didn't have such a sheer number cover that did stop bullets (and there i was in the infantry or the armored cavalry)

If fight on open maps - like caustic or alpine naval manouvers or medieval cavalry tactics work, if they don't this is not a BattleTech Game -> simple logic

On open terrain yes Use Cav tactics, but this game isn't open terrain ever time, Oh and Godzilla is MUCH taller than a Mech. Mechs are 2-2 1/2 stories tall Big G is 10ish+.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Mechs are 2-2 1/2 stories tall Big G is 10ish+.

Not even Gozilla can beat Terror Therme

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 20 May 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Not even Gozilla can beat Terror Therme

I'd take that Bet!

[Eglar]

Zoid, on 19 May 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

We don't see massive battles, we see both teams setting up a camping/firing line.

You're dead wrong. Camping and sniping only makes sense against a clearly inferior team.
Without too many spoilers - Wait for the SJR vs HoL game and you'll see that one small difference and how snipers become brawlers.

Edited by Eglar, 20 May 2014 - 02:00 AM.

[Zolaz]

Weapons should be disabled while you are jumping.

[Captain Stiffy]

What the hell nubs? Now you're mad that cover exists?

Next top thread with a million stupid bumps: Please fix that mechs can take damage

[wanderer]

Hardly. Keeping shake while in midair regardless of whether you're applying thrust would be appropriate, though- which would neatly render poptarting far, far less useful as it'd scatter damage widely.

Paul could have clued on this when he was busy nerfing the Victor and Highlander, but he derped and thought the chassis was the problem when it was the jump-firing mechanic.

[Demuder]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

I'm confused... I have fired Shotguns both in the Marines and as a security guard... Sniper rifles kill you clean and shot guns make into a Big Mac. both leave you quite dead. and last time I fires an assault rifle I was mashing head shots on the rifle range at 500M. If I am playing a combat game... I damn well better feel like its a combat situation. I guess I was right to not get into SoCom and other "Combat" games. I would be sorely disappointed.

You do understand that anything you might have experienced in the army (something that you graciously remind us in every single post you make btw) has nothing to do with giant walking/running robots right ? I mean anything one might have encountered on a 20th-21st century battlefield should have nothing to do with anything encountered on a 31st century one. If there's something similar, let me assure you, there's something wrong with the simulation.

A rock or a tree can be cover for a human, a mech needs a building or a small hill. I sure as hell have not seen any infantry man carry a hitscan weapon, let alone boat 4 medium or 2 large lasers. And I have never seen a soldier shrug off an alphastrike to the torso and keep on running at 60kph. And I sure as hell have never seen any footsoldier employ jetpacks to poptart. Granted, in some situations soldiers have to worry about heat, hehe.

Robots are not footsoldiers, they are not tanks, they are not cavalry. They don't carry rifles or grenades (launchers) nor do they set minefields. They carry lasers from the future and can launch 30+ Javelins at you and are unrealistically sturdy and agile. They are just that, robots that can carry multiple weapons and take multiple shots before they go down. Tactics should be and are different, if they are not, and cover humping is viable or realistic, then there's something seriously wrong about how the game works.

A combat situation ? Granted. There's myriads of games that try to simulate a modern combat situation. Some do it well and some do it worse. Having MWO create a modern combat simulation to fit your experience is a pipedream. Let's try to do something different with it, shall we ?

Edited by Demuder, 20 May 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Demuder, on 20 May 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Robots are not footsoldiers, they are not tanks, they are not cavalry. They don't carry rifles or grenades (launchers) nor do they set minefields. They carry lasers from the future and can launch 30+ Javelins at you and are unrealistically sturdy and agile. They are just that, robots that can carry multiple weapons and take multiple shots before they go down. Tactics should be and are different, if they are not, and cover humping is viable or realistic, then there's something seriously wrong about how the game works.

They dont carry Rifles?
They don't carry Grenade launchers but do have this
Mines...FASCAM LRM and Arrow4 lay Minefields, House Liao has Minelayer equipment for Battle Armor. Learn your lore. Come back and talk to me.

[Bobzilla]

The first thing they could do is make a couple maps that are opposite of alpine and caustic, no sight lines past 500m anywhere on the map, cover that cannont be jumped over (large downtown, with skyscrapers) then throw them in the mix. Those maps would cause ridge humpers, poptarts and lrm boats to change their loadouts, or constantly do terrible on those maps.

Secondly they could make short range weapons more potent, to the point where if you do get close you have a clear advantage. Up LBX, pulses and SRMs for starters.

[Demuder]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

They dont carry Rifles?
They don't carry Grenade launchers but do have this
Mines...FASCAM LRM and Arrow4 lay Minefields, House Liao has Minelayer equipment for Battle Armor. Learn your lore. Come back and talk to me.

You mean that a Gauss Rifle has anything to do with a modern rifle - other than the word rifle ? Just for argument's sake, apart from the technical characteristics, can you imagine how you would use a modern rifle if it was duck taped to your forearm or embedded in your torso ? Any firing position you have been taught suddenly becomes impossible. That alone makes any tactic you know with a modern rifle invalid when using a Gauss rifle - or an AC for that matter.

As for mortars, yes, I pray that PGI puts them in the game but even then, the closest to modern analogy would be a mortar launcher like the ones modern IFVs/APCs carry, not the kind of mortar a platoon sets up or the grenades soldiers lob around.

Edited by Demuder, 20 May 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Demuder, on 20 May 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

You mean that a Gauss Rifle has anything to do with a modern rifle - other than the word rifle ? Just for argument's sake, apart from the technical characteristics, can you imagine how you would use a modern rifle if it was duck taped to your forearm or embedded in your torso ? Any firing position you have been taught suddenly becomes impossible. That alone makes any tactic you know with a modern rifle invalid when using a Gauss rifle.

As for mortars, yes, I pray that PGI puts them in the game but even then, the closest to modern analogy would be a mortar launcher like the ones modern IFVs/APCs carry, not the kind of mortar a platoon sets up or the grenades soldiers lob around.

Your point was there are no hand carried weapons, but there are/were. And to my memory a Gauss has never been hand held. Arm mounted but not hand held. And tactics for using a rifle... Point (at enemy) and click.
Yes I can Imagine, I'd be a cyborg!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 May 2014 - 08:33 AM.

[Abisha]

i think the OP is wrong.

Holding strategic points, is key of game.
often i see the line being broken, and enemy mechs moving pass them give them the opper hand on some locations that are optimal fire.

for instance, anyone know the Tunnel in Crimson is Key the group ignoring the tunnel often loss the battle.

[Demuder]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Your point was there are no hand carried weapons, but there are/were. And to my memory a Gauss has never been hand held. Arm mounted but not hand held. And tactics for using a rifle... Point (at enemy) and click.
Yes I can Imagine, I'd be a cyborg!

Well, when they taught me how to use a rifle, the first thing was to teach me to fire from prone position to minimize my profile. I was also taught to target my rifle without having to wave my whole torso or arms around. I was taught to shoot one weapon at a time, be it a G3 or a grenade or a grenade launcher. And when in cover, I was taught not to walk out of cover with my whole body (since well, my weapons were not torso or forearm mounted), take a potshot, then backpedal in cover.

I was also taught to never run in a field unless there was covering fire from my support squad. I was taught that as infantry, my APC unloads me on the field, I dig in, I stay there, because moving equals detection and death, unless under the cover of overwhelming suppressing fire.

I was also taught (well, not taught, but medical degree you see) that if I get a 7.62 then it's bye bye cruel world, one shot, one kill. That when any indirect fire targets me, be it mortar, artillery or heck, even iron bombs, I am dead. Wasn't taught anything about homing missiles, because well, those are not around for infantry yet.

All this is very valid modern battlefield knowledge. How any of this could apply to a Battletech setting, is beyond me. I believe the same goes for any modern armored warfare tactics.

That was my point, not arm or hand held weapons. In a setting where death comes in the form of a single rifle bullet or a single HEAT round or missile, tactics are very, very different than in a setting where death comes from the combined fire of an infantry and support company. Even more when you don't have to pay for repairs or a resurrection potion :-)

[Joseph Mallan]

Demuder, on 20 May 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Well, when they taught me how to use a rifle, the first thing was to teach me to fire from prone position to minimize my profile. I was also taught to target my rifle without having to wave my whole torso or arms around. I was taught to shoot one weapon at a time, be it a G3 or a grenade or a grenade launcher. And when in cover, I was taught not to walk out of cover with my whole body (since well, my weapons were not torso or forearm mounted), take a potshot, then backpedal in cover.

I was also taught to never run in a field unless there was covering fire from my support squad. I was taught that as infantry, my APC unloads me on the field, I dig in, I stay there, because moving equals detection and death, unless under the cover of overwhelming suppressing fire.

I was also taught (well, not taught, but medical degree you see) that if I get a 7.62 then it's bye bye cruel world, one shot, one kill. That when any indirect fire targets me, be it mortar, artillery or heck, even iron bombs, I am dead. Wasn't taught anything about homing missiles, because well, those are not around for infantry yet.

All this is very valid modern battlefield knowledge. How any of this could apply to a Battletech setting, is beyond me. I believe the same goes for any modern armored warfare tactics.

That was my point, not arm or hand held weapons. In a setting where death comes in the form of a single rifle bullet or a single HEAT round or missile, tactics are very, very different than in a setting where death comes from the combined fire of an infantry and support company. Even more when you don't have to pay for repairs or a resurrection potion :-)

Lets see, Rifle range had me firing from Prone, Sitting and Standing. So you will just die if shot in the leg or foot with a 7.62? Your health must suck something awful.
I was also taught to never run with scissors!