72 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

This is for evaluating how the game shaped this team tournament.
I just finished watching the 11 Sunday matches, still waiting for the 5 Monday ones though I expect a lot of the same listed below.
None of this is meant to offend teams, players or even staff and companies involved in development of MWO.

Map - Forest Colony
Mode - Skirmish

Majority of Mechs Seen on Teams

Cataphracts - usually 3D, NOT Ilyas
Shadow Hawks - all though I think more 2D and 2D2
Victors - mostly Dragon Slayers
JagerMechs - always DD or S
Jenners - always D or K Energy builds
Firestarter - usually Embers
Highlanders - forget types
Stalker - Misery
All ECM Mechs except Commando

There were a few variations but these made up the majority of Mechs and variants used.

Majority of Weapons Seen Used in Typical Combos

AC20 & UAC5
AC20 & 4ML
3LL & AC20 or AC10
2PPC & 2AC5
NO LRMs
Pure MLs on Lights, Embers with MLs & MGs

Consumables in Use - Arty, Strikes, UAV

Overall, I don’t like this result. The Mech choices usually do not show much variety and I believe the game should encourage that. Most weapon combos do not either. Previous to this we saw similar in the singles tournaments but now it is the same in team games.
I emphasize the NO LRMs for all the LRM complainers, I see LRMs in my games but when 12 mans are not taking them in a competition, you have to wonder why and I doubt it has anything to do with the usual arguments about ‘non-aiming weapons’ or ‘LRMs are Support.’
I feel bothered by the Phract-3Ds running AC20 & 4ML, that is similar to Hunchback loadout but now it is on 15 tons more Mech while being slower (not by much I will bet) has JJ and no Hunch weakness, kinda makes the Hunchback look less desirable.
I can understand why there are no Locusts or Commandos.
The near lack of variety in Medium Mechs is bothersome.
Heavies focused on 2, Cataphracts and Jagermechs, though there were occasional other Heavies appearing though I saw no Dragons.
Same for Assaults focused on Victors and no Awesomes.
For me, this indicates certain Mechs need changes to make them desirable for play a subject I would LOVE to get into when the whole tournament is over.
Same for Weapon Balance and this time, I would like to see suggestions for modifying Weapon Health, I hardly ever see the community mention that. Why, for example, does a AC5 taking up more criticals but doing ML damage have the same health as a ML?
Can we get rid of ECM Stealth NOW? Really, dump it and all the extra stuff added to counter it, despite all counters it is clearly still eliminating LRM play competitively. I see LRMs in my matches but when people go into a tournament and LRMs are nowhere to be found, the only reason I can see is ECM Stealth so the counters mean nothing.

While I do not play in high ELO, maybe not even mid, possibly mid-low, compared to matches I usually find myself in, the following matches are closest to mine:
Smoke Adder v Blacksheep
HARD Corp v Frati Mazzolartori
Skjaldborg v The Dire Wolves

The 9 Jagermech Skye Rangers was an interesting choice though one I do not agree with, too ammo dependent.

Why are some players listed at start at 99% instead of 100% (Skjaldborg vs The Dire Wolves for example, at match start the side panel is opened and a few Mechs are at 99% when they are leaving start positions).

I love the Cicada leg that went through rock terrain in the stream at 4:29 in the Skjaldborg vs The Dire Wolves match.


Will have more after next 5 matches and second round.

PS - wish we had Mech personalized HUDs like the Hunchback and Jagermech in this video.

[FupDup]

Merchant, on 19 May 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Cataphracts - usually 3D, NOT Ilyas
Shadow Hawks - all though I think more 2D and 2D2
Victors - mostly Dragon Slayers
JagerMechs - always DD or S
Jenners - always D or K Energy builds
Firestarter - usually Embers
Highlanders - forget types
Stalker - Misery
All ECM Mechs except Commando

There were a few variations but these made up the majority of Mechs and variants used.

Majority of Weapons Seen Used in Typical Combos

AC20 & UAC5
AC20 & 4ML
3LL & AC20 or AC10
2PPC & 2AC5
NO LRMs
Pure MLs on Lights, Embers with MLs & MGs

Consumables in Use - Arty, Strikes, UAV

Overall, I don’t like this result. The Mech choices usually do not show much variety and I believe the game should encourage that. Most weapon combos do not either. Previous to this we saw similar in the singles tournaments but now it is the same in team games.
I emphasize the NO LRMs for all the LRM complainers, I see LRMs in my games but when 12 mans are not taking them in a competition, you have to wonder why and I doubt it has anything to do with the usual arguments about ‘non-aiming weapons’ or ‘LRMs are Support.’
I feel bothered by the Phract-3Ds running AC20 & 4ML, that is similar to Hunchback loadout but now it is on 15 tons more Mech while being slower (not by much I will bet) has JJ and no Hunch weakness, kinda makes the Hunchback look less desirable.
I can understand why there are no Locusts or Commandos.
The near lack of variety in Medium Mechs is bothersome.
Heavies focused on 2, Cataphracts and Jagermechs, though there were occasional other Heavies appearing though I saw no Dragons.
Same for Assaults focused on Victors and no Awesomes.

The meta train has no brakes!

Edited by FupDup, 19 May 2014 - 08:56 PM.

[Ultimax]

Merchant, on 19 May 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

I emphasize the NO LRMs for all the LRM complainers, I see LRMs in my games but when 12 mans are not taking them in a competition, you have to wonder why and I doubt it has anything to do with the usual arguments about ‘non-aiming weapons’ or ‘LRMs are Support.’

Mostly it's because no issue is black and white.

Coordinated teams and smart players can foil LRM use.

PUG teams are at the mercy of a completely random Matchmaker that might put them not only against a premade lance, but an enemy that has more/all the ECM, all/more LRMs.

At least half of the complaints about LRMs probably come from sheer frustration of two things:

1) When enemies you can't see can target you, so you can't "fight back".
2) Screen blur & cockpit shake is wildly out of wack.


I imagine if they toned down #2 we'd see much fewer complaints overall.

#1 probably requires a total overhaul of indirect fire, artemis, TAG, NARC & ECM mechanics.

Merchant, on 19 May 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

I feel bothered by the Phract-3Ds running AC20 & 4ML, that is similar to Hunchback loadout but now it is on 15 tons more Mech

You feel bothered that a 70 ton mech can run the loadout of a 50 ton mech?

It's not even an optimal loadout for the Cataphract, and isn't taking advantage of both ballistic slots.

Merchant, on 19 May 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Same for Weapon Balance and this time, I would like to see suggestions for modifying Weapon Health, I hardly ever see the community mention that. Why, for example, does a AC5 taking up more criticals but doing ML damage have the same health as a ML.

Which part are you upset about here, that the AC 5 has as much health as the MLAS or that the MLAS has as much health as the AC 5? (If it's the first one, we disagree. If it's the second one, we agree).


Personally I think weapon health should be based on number of critical slots and/or tonnage of the weapon.

I think a MLAS should have lower health than a LLAS which should have lower health than a LPL/PPC.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 May 2014 - 09:05 PM.

[Sephlock]

Ultimatum X, on 19 May 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

2) Screen blur & cockpit shake is wildly out of wack.

I agree. They have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed WAYYYYYY too much.

[Alexandrix]

You don't really have to be nostradamus to predict what mechs and builds would appear in a tournament of the top teams......

[El Bandito]

Basically a "JJs or high arm mounts with ballistic slot or GTFO" tournament.

Now I'm really, really hoping the results will tell PGI that weapon balance is out of whack, but I am used to disappointments from them.

There is a saying in Mongolia, "It does not matter if you pour water (bad advice) or gold (good advice) into donkey's (stubborn fool's) ear, it will shake em off (ignore completely)". This applies to PGI all too well.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 May 2014 - 10:12 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

You don't like it? I am at top elo bracket with heavy, assaults and light Mechs and this is basicaly all I get in matches. All in all, if ballistics get recoil and PPCs get charging just as gausses do, we will have balance rather fast. Add 3/3/3/3 into the mix and whoa, we may actualy have a balanced game!

EDIT: Anyway, nice and constructive post, +1 well deserved, keep it up!

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 19 May 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[Aresye]

The reason you don't see many LRMs in competitive play is because teams are actually able to organize and prepare for it, which more or less completely voids LRMs as a viable weapon because you KNOW for a fact that any smart team is going to stick together, have plentiful amounts of ECM mechs, and possibly have AMS on every mech.

LRMs are pretty much only viable in the pug scene. They suck as a weapon and only work when you get matched with a random team that doesn't have ECM or plentiful amounts of AMS to defend against it.

Aside from that, LRMs also give your opponent time to react and protect their weak sides, and any damage that is dealt is spread over multiple areas. Very poor choice when you're trying to minimize TTK for each opponent, which is the entire point of competitive drops. Kill as fast as possible to get the advantage in numbers.

LRMs will pretty much never be seen in tournaments like this unless they do a complete overhaul of LRMs, NARC, TAG, ECM, and trajectory.

*EDIT*
It's also worth noting that there will always be a meta. No matter how balanced things can get, there will ALWAYS be a build designed around minimum TTK, and the competitive scene will use it.

Edited by Aresye, 19 May 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

LRMs will pretty much never be seen in tournaments like this unless they do a complete overhaul of LRMs, NARC, TAG, ECM, and trajectory.

They dont even need to do a complete overhaul. They just need to remove the stealth bubble from ECM so it no longer hard counters LRMs.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 19 May 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

They dont even need to do a complete overhaul. They just need to remove the stealth bubble from ECM so it no longer hard counters LRMs.

And if you do - you have to rework the indirect fire mode for LRMs. Its to precise. Must be more a kind of areal denial weapon / light artillery weapon - for disturbing not killing.
Because when you nerf LRMs simple - they are even more useless for direct fire.

Its a hard call - and i don't believe that somebody has the guts to make it work

[Khobai]

Quote

And if you do - you have to rework the indirect fire mode for LRMs. Its to precise. Must be more a kind of areal denial weapon / light artillery weapon - for disturbing not killing.

Nah you wouldnt. Even if you removed ECM stealth, LRMs wouldnt be close to overpowered. Because all you have to do is kill the light mech spotting for the LRMs. Once all the spotters are dead the LRM boats cant indirect fire and will get picked apart by poptarts. You might have to change NARC. Thats about it.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2014 - 10:40 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Karl Streiger, on 19 May 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

And if you do - you have to rework the indirect fire mode for LRMs. Its to precise. Must be more a kind of areal denial weapon / light artillery weapon - for disturbing not killing.

that wouldn't be necessary at all

[El Bandito]

Karl Streiger, on 19 May 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

And if you do - you have to rework the indirect fire mode for LRMs. Its to precise. Must be more a kind of areal denial weapon / light artillery weapon - for disturbing not killing. Because when you nerf LRMs simple - they are even more useless for direct fire. Its a hard call - and i don't believe that somebody has the guts to make it work

Paul will cockblock any such attempt anyway. Current ECM is his precioussss.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 19 May 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Nah you wouldnt. Even if you removed ECM stealth, LRMs wouldnt be close to overpowered. Because all you have to do is kill the light mech spotting for the LRMs. Once all the spotters are dead the LRM boats cant indirect fire and will get picked apart by poptarts. You might have to change NARC. Thats about it.

But this is exact the problem.
Spotting without "semi guided" LRMS -> means the spotter has to be active to spot. He has to concentrate on delivering information about the target to the LRM Boats.
Currently all you need is a LOS. means even if me and two other guys are all the time playing peakaboo - we can spot for LRMs. You don't even need a spotter.

The current LRM solution reminds me 100% at semi active LRMS from TotalWarfare - but that you don't even need TAG to deliver precisions attacks (The TAG as addition to Ultra 10s and HPPCs - and the Hail of Fire of 4 WoB LRM Carriers....yes come on kill those 100 and 80t spotters - before 240LRMs are wiping you out)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 19 May 2014 - 10:50 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Was waiting for someone to make this thread. Not surprising no LRMs...where's all the LRM whiners now?

[Khobai]

Well LRMs will never get used as long as weapons like AC20s are dominant either. AC20s are absolutely prolific in this tournament. Its pretty obvious they need to be converted to burst fire just like Clan autocannons. PPCs need arcing damage too. Pinpoint damage just shouldnt exist period.

[Curccu]

Mordin Ashe, on 19 May 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

You don't like it? I am at top elo bracket with heavy, assaults and light Mechs and this is basicaly all I get in matches. All in all, if ballistics get recoil and PPCs get charging just as gausses do, we will have balance rather fast. Add 3/3/3/3 into the mix and whoa, we may actualy have a balanced game!

EDIT: Anyway, nice and constructive post, +1 well deserved, keep it up!

Well TBH gauss charge mechanism isn't that big deal really... maybe it makes mediocre players to use something easier but for "top elo bracket" players it just takes few days to get used to it.

[El Bandito]

Lyoto Machida, on 19 May 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Was waiting for someone to make this thread. Not surprising no LRMs...where's all the LRM whiners now?

They are in low elo threads.

[Mycrus]

Nice to see the Jenner k being used... 4 ml and 4 module slots are op

[Lyoto Machida]

El Bandito, on 20 May 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

They are in low elo threads.

Haha...was a rhetorical question.