72 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Lyoto Machida, on 19 May 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Was waiting for someone to make this thread. Not surprising no LRMs...where's all the LRM whiners now?

To many ddc . I wouldnt run a lrm boat with so many ecms around.

[arkani]

If you are competing, you will take the most efficient mech and weapons.
Therefore there will always be some mechs that wil be prefered and weapon loadouts that will be taken in detriment of others.

This is made even worse because the mechs dont really have any diferentiating quirks ( example a 3ppc Awesome would have no penalty in heat), nothing that makes them stand apart or excell in certain roles.
This is made even worse by the constant nerfing of weapons, instead of actual balance, so right now only a handfull of weapons are actually good, the rest has been nerfed to the ground.
Add to this the "less than stellar" maps chosen for competition that favor "close quarters" then this limits the available choices even more.

Take the "Forest Colony" map, and put a mech on a hill, any mech, and you can spot the entire map, so you don't really need a stealthy light playing "information warfare", so your lights became haraser's, hence Embers and Jenner's.

As for weapons, for example gauss, due to the "charge cycle", it becomes a useless weapon because competitive teams will see your loadout and react accordingly and close on you or send a light to harass and at close range the "charge cycle" gimps you. Also they wont be out in the open for you to take "pot shots" like pugs do.

As for LRMS, competitive teams stay close together which means they get the benefit of several AMS and ECM cover. As for using a spotter, again because they stay together once they figure there being spotted they obliterate the spotter with focus fire.


In conclusion, with the moronic "band aid nerfs" to weapons, mechs that have no quirks and nothing more than different weapon locations, maps that are bland then you will get a very restrictive meta.
Thats what we have, so go say thanks to the "genius" of PGI who prefer "band aid" solutions instead of though out solutions or to use very good community ideas freely given.

This is PGI attitude.

Edited by arkani, 20 May 2014 - 01:21 AM.

[Cattra Kell]

>No LRMS

A.C.E.S would like a word with you...

[Jon Gotham]

I've used lrms/been spotter for/seen lrms used in 12 mans with brutal effectiveness.
As much as I loathe what they do to gameplay,I utilise them frequently now. they only fail if you have multiple overlapping ECM. Cover won't save you vs a good lrm player-neither will ams unless you are all standing in 180m range of each other and you all have it.
I've also found they are savage as direct fire tools used in conjunction with direct fire weapons. Why the "pros" don't make use of them I don't know, as even with copious ECM they can still be used well. You might only bring two mechs with them, but they have a place.

But an interesting op nonetheless and just reinforces my goal of never "competing" with this turgid meta in place.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Cattra Kell, on 20 May 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

>No LRMS

A.C.E.S would like a word with you...

You did notice the whole SUNDAY thing right?

And ACES/CI are a different beast. They are both more casual.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 May 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Darling_In_The_MeXX]

My take on this thread!

This was a very well written threat and it brings forth a few important points. One of them which I think PGI tried to stay away from. This is in reverence to not having a pay to win game. This thread reveals that some not all mechs that were used in the "Highest" competitive play in this game were Hero mechs. One could easily argue that this is not true, but the counter argument would be something along the lines that the misery is clearly used for its AC/20 potential and no other reason. Also when every mech runs an airstrike because it can drop any mech down by 10% + going down by weight is a sever problem. That means that 6 well placed arty strikes can decimate about half the enemy's armor of a few given mechs. Why give the game play suggestion of sticking together to live only so that they are able to die or recieve lots of damage?

Two things possibly to take from this?

1: Run the next tournament without hero mechs to show that it is not pay to win. It hides the fact that the hero mechs have a better build.

2: Arty and air strikes are to strong and should be (I suggest) removed because this is mech combat, not who can land the luckiest hit when they are all together?

[Grimmrog]

Karl Streiger, on 19 May 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

But this is exact the problem.
Spotting without "semi guided" LRMS -> means the spotter has to be active to spot. He has to concentrate on delivering information about the target to the LRM Boats.
Currently all you need is a LOS. means even if me and two other guys are all the time playing peakaboo - we can spot for LRMs. You don't even need a spotter.

The current LRM solution reminds me 100% at semi active LRMS from TotalWarfare - but that you don't even need TAG to deliver precisions attacks (The TAG as addition to Ultra 10s and HPPCs - and the Hail of Fire of 4 WoB LRM Carriers....yes come on kill those 100 and 80t spotters - before 240LRMs are wiping you out)

precission attacks? I wonder how WW tanks were able to deliver such a "precission" without taggers and only visuals. Such a mech is already a giant structure, you don't need superfine precission to make it hit. Anyone thats sensonrs can deliver the exact position can easily transmit them via radio to teammates. Which is simulated by the reduced lock time. A spotter would only be needed for extra precision. Your sensors are already an active component.

Edited by Grimmrog, 20 May 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Oblivion5000, on 20 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

My take on this thread!

This was a very well written threat and it brings forth a few important points. One of them which I think PGI tried to stay away from. This is in reverence to not having a pay to win game. This thread reveals that some not all mechs that were used in the "Highest" competitive play in this game were Hero mechs. One could easily argue that this is not true, but the counter argument would be something along the lines that the misery is clearly used for its AC/20 potential and no other reason. Also when every mech runs an airstrike because it can drop any mech down by 10% + going down by weight is a sever problem. That means that 6 well placed arty strikes can decimate about half the enemy's armor of a few given mechs. Why give the game play suggestion of sticking together to live only so that they are able to die or recieve lots of damage?

Two things possibly to take from this?

1: Run the next tournament without hero mechs to show that it is not pay to win. It hides the fact that the hero mechs have a better build.

2: Arty and air strikes are to strong and should be (I suggest) removed because this is mech combat, not who can land the luckiest hit when they are all together?

I don't agree with the hero mech assertion.

If it wasn't Dragonslayers it would just be another Victor. And same with the Ember.

The problem is weapon balance is way out of whack, contrary to people like Rebas who say it is close.

And to exacerbate it, there are major issues with balance among the various chassis as well.

[Karl Streiger]

Grimmrog, on 20 May 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

precission attacks? I wonde rhow WW tanks were able to deliver such a "precission" without taggers and only visuals. Such a mehc is already a giant structure, you don't need superfine precission to make it hit. Anyone thats sensonrs can deliver the exact position can easily transmit them via radio to teammates. A spotter would only be needed for extra precision. Your sensors are already an active component. Which is simulated by the reduced lock time.

Not in BattleTech - there you need a spotter that - spot - this is handled by a "imaginary" shot made by the spotter + modificators and if he "hit" the indirect LRM Strike hit the target. The LRM Carrier is only active in "offering" his LRMs.

With TAG the Spotter have to hit the target, too (although its simpler) - and again the LRM Carrier is only active in "offering" his LRMs.

Its true that modern day artillery computers can calculate MRSI - fire in seconds - but that is not BattleTech.

[General Taskeen]

This also shows how much more variety and awesome that is Stock Mode.

I've played the real gameplay on Stock Monday's, Wednesday's, and Saturday's and it is far more of a blast. If the tournament was a stock tourney only, I would play it.

I have seen practically every type of 'Mech, some that is rarely used in the Solaris Mode, actually excel in non-custom gameplay. And every type of weapon is used. Awesome's are actually beasts. 'Mechs have more clear roles.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Basically a "JJs or high arm mounts with ballistic slot or GTFO" tournament.

Now I'm really, really hoping the results will tell PGI that weapon balance is out of whack, but I am used to disappointments from them.

JJs / High Arm Mounts is not a weapon balance issue.

It is a mech (physical) design and environment design issue.


If arms could be raised, or more mechs had "torso" weapons mounted higher and if terrain were more easily traversed - a lot of the X vs. Y mech chassis gap could be narrowed.

[Cattra Kell]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

You did notice the whole SUNDAY thing right?

And ACES/CI are a different beast. They are both more casual.

Marik civil war s1 and s2 placements respectfully. 4th overall, 4th overall & 1st in bracket. Not saying were better then people like smoke jag or even as organized but calling the comp scene of aces casuals is not really true.

[TexAce]

So many SRMs.....wow!

/s

[Screech]

Was hoping this thread would have pointed out the good matches I would want to watch, sadly this is not the case.

[Rhaythe]

Screech, on 20 May 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Was hoping this thread would have pointed out the good matches I would want to watch, sadly this is not the case.

We're posting videos of the stock mech matches in the Stock Mech Monday thread if you want to see "good" matches.
I keed, I keed... kinda.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Merchant, on 19 May 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

This is for evaluating how the game shaped this team tournament.

Thanks for the work you put in. Funny ancedote, I thought the tourny was 6pm so here I came bumbling into TS about 4pm wishing the guys good luck with some words of encouragement and was met with the most awkward crickets for about 10 seconds until people started cracking up. (the crickets were because they were stomped into dust) It was like wishing someone who just died a happy birthday.

[Ngamok]

Sorry if already mentioned, the Jenners were D and F not D and K.

[Ngamok]

Curccu, on 20 May 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Well TBH gauss charge mechanism isn't that big deal really... maybe it makes mediocre players to use something easier but for "top elo bracket" players it just takes few days to get used to it.

Yea, I don't get the Gauss hate. It's not a snap twist weapon anymore, but anyone who plays with it a few days can get used to it's mechanics.

[Ngamok]

Oblivion5000, on 20 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

My take on this thread!

This was a very well written threat and it brings forth a few important points. One of them which I think PGI tried to stay away from. This is in reverence to not having a pay to win game. This thread reveals that some not all mechs that were used in the "Highest" competitive play in this game were Hero mechs. One could easily argue that this is not true, but the counter argument would be something along the lines that the misery is clearly used for its AC/20 potential and no other reason. Also when every mech runs an airstrike because it can drop any mech down by 10% + going down by weight is a sever problem. That means that 6 well placed arty strikes can decimate about half the enemy's armor of a few given mechs. Why give the game play suggestion of sticking together to live only so that they are able to die or recieve lots of damage?

Two things possibly to take from this?

1: Run the next tournament without hero mechs to show that it is not pay to win. It hides the fact that the hero mechs have a better build.

2: Arty and air strikes are to strong and should be (I suggest) removed because this is mech combat, not who can land the luckiest hit when they are all together?

1.) Would be a good idea. It mostly affects the Dragon Slayer since it equals the 733C on weapon locations and to a lesser degree the Firebrand because you can put the PPCs in the arms instead of the STs like the other 3. Misery is debatable.

2.) I would agree with this as I watched one match with less than 3 minutes (?) to go and it was 0-0 till the arty push happened.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

I don't agree with the hero mech assertion.

If it wasn't Dragonslayers it would just be another Victor. And same with the Ember.

The problem is weapon balance is way out of whack, contrary to people like Rebas who say it is close.

And to exacerbate it, there are major issues with balance among the various chassis as well.

Any other Victor losing the Left Arm would be a problem.

[Ngamok]

Ultimatum X, on 20 May 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

JJs / High Arm Mounts is not a weapon balance issue.

It is a mech (physical) design and environment design issue.


If arms could be raised, or more mechs had "torso" weapons mounted higher and if terrain were more easily traversed - a lot of the X vs. Y mech chassis gap could be narrowed.

Probably see some Black Jacks and Shadow Hawks on the 600 ton decks for Conquest.