72 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Cattra Kell, on 20 May 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

>No LRMS

A.C.E.S would like a word with you...

Well, thanks for the vid. I will still want to see the one with the Spectating and commenting, the LRM use was interesting and further reinforced my belief regarding Medium LRM boats vs. Assault and possibly Heavy LRM boats.
I did mention I only saw the 11 Sunday matches, yours is a Monday one I still have not seen on the NGNG channel.

Oblivion5000, on 20 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

My take on this thread!

This was a very well written threat .....

But I tried so hard to be nice and objective compared to my weekend foul mood! *sob* *cries*

Oblivion5000, on 20 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

and it brings forth a few important points. One of them which I think PGI tried to stay away from. This is in reverence to not having a pay to win game. This thread reveals that some not all mechs that were used in the "Highest" competitive play in this game were Hero mechs. One could easily argue that this is not true, but the counter argument would be something along the lines that the misery is clearly used for its AC/20 potential and no other reason. Also when every mech runs an airstrike because it can drop any mech down by 10% + going down by weight is a sever problem. That means that 6 well placed arty strikes can decimate about half the enemy's armor of a few given mechs. Why give the game play suggestion of sticking together to live only so that they are able to die or recieve lots of damage?

Two things possibly to take from this?

1: Run the next tournament without hero mechs to show that it is not pay to win. It hides the fact that the hero mechs have a better build.

2: Arty and air strikes are to strong and should be (I suggest) removed because this is mech combat, not who can land the luckiest hit when they are all together?

Only significant Heroes were the DS explained by Ngamok and Ember, I guess that one for heat management, has the most Ballistic slots so more MGs combined with MLs gives better heat management.

1 - Don't think Heroes are a big deal other than the DS.
2 - I think Arty/Strike should be tied to Command Console.

Ngamok, on 20 May 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Sorry if already mentioned, the Jenners were D and F not D and K.

Was not sure I saw Fs, thought I did once, but most of the 11 I saw, I know at the end game screens I saw Ks somewhere. Ks can carry the same pure Energy loadout as a D and get +1 slot for Arty/Strike.

Ngamok, on 20 May 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

1.) Would be a good idea. It mostly affects the Dragon Slayer since it equals the 733C on weapon locations and to a lesser degree the Firebrand because you can put the PPCs in the arms instead of the STs like the other 3. Misery is debatable.

2.) I would agree with this as I watched one match with less than 3 minutes (?) to go and it was 0-0 till the arty push happened.



Any other Victor losing the Left Arm would be a problem.

Interesting explanations.

Ngamok, on 20 May 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Probably see some Black Jacks and Shadow Hawks on the 600 ton decks for Conquest.

Wonder if they will use the BJ I designed while reading responses to this thread, it fits the Meta and has benefits of 3 Meta Mechs.

[Wildstreak]

Aloha, on 20 May 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

I've watched a couple of the tourney videos and I don't care for the way they were covered. It's too hard to see what's going on when they used the "sky view" (or whatever they call it) mode. The pilot name/mech call-outs block a lot of the action and all I see are a bunch of letters moving across the screen that are barely legible. It's like watching a football game being played by the "X" and "O" in play books.

I think a better way to cover it, or at least in addition to what they did, was to video capture each of the team's captain's perspective, much like some of the videos that Jager XII posts on YouTube. This way we can see how the captain directs their respective teams and what strategies were employed. Although this may pose the issue of teams giving away their "secrets". Maybe just add those on after the tournament is over so this won't be an issue.

I would not mind that Team Captain video when the whole thing is over perhaps with added type commentary.

Davers, on 20 May 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Forest Colony is a dark map with mostly dark mechs. I hope PGI noticed this for future tournaments. Mechs will be much more visible on maps like Caustic Valley.

Speaking of which, I wish Caustic Valley was the first map used- it would have been the best chance to see some team try out an LRM loadout. No one is going to try that in the semi finals.

Caustic, the Semi-Finals and Conquest, guess they do not want the usual 'circle the center' match.
FCN & Conquest next.
I will be HIGHLY interested to see how the teams handle RC & Assault, even at my level, that map and mode forces you to play the meta with minor LRMs unless you go north. I spend half the matches in RC/RCN & Assault commenting on this in chat and people ask why I am there.

[Sephlock]

Merchant, on 20 May 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

It should get removed.
Just to be clear because last time I said this it confused people.
I have no idea what part of the game Screen Blur refers to here.
Cockpit Shake can mean two things.
1 - The HUD shake produced when Jumping.
2 - The shake produced when people are hit by certain weapons.
When I say removed, I refer to #2.

Yes I agree, they should remove the nerfs to screen shake.

I mean, who the heck wants to feel like they are ice skating on a steadycam point-and-clicking their way through a "battle" where the shells and missiles* have no visceral sense of impact- as if you were playing a light gun game rather than in actual combat.



I mean, there are advanced gyro modules specifically for this sort of issue, it's not like we'd want that to become another command console by nerfing one of the very issues it is designed to help with (putting aside the issue of their efficacy).

Actually, on a more serious note, would you accept a compromise such as making the advanced gyro module give you the aforementioned ice skating with a laser pointer experience?

*Let alone the near-instantaneous boiling/wrenching/blasting off of several tons of irregularly shaped tons of armor while moving at 60+ KPH at angles, possibly while torso twisting.

[Wildstreak]

I will explain my position on Screen Shake done by weapons in more detail.

First, any game having some realistic effects has to do 2 basic things.
#2 - Provide as much realism as possible without violating #1.
#1 - Strive to provide a balanced match.

#1 trumps #2.
Screen Shake by weapons is the reverse.

There are 3 things causing shake.

Missiles - I actually do not mind this. I can return fire No Problem.

Autocannon - The problem I have here is Shake combined with visual blinding of multi AC2, possibly UAC5. The rapid fire of so many hits doing Shake and Visual Blinding is OP preventing weapon fire and not realistic.

Arty/Strikes - The worst shake, you would think your Mech is trying to walk/jump over patches of ice floating on water.

Shake and Visual effects should not be done to a degree they prevent return fire, that affects balance and shifts it too much depending on the degree of the effects.

I do not want to comment on Improved Gyros because I do not have them Unlocked so cannot see the effects currently.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Has anyone mentioned that Forest Colony is a SMALL map, and that all teams deployed limited numbers of poptarts due to the inopportune terrain. Most units took at least a few brawlers for the inevitable close quarters, wait until we see a more meta-friendly map, all you will see is red smoke and mechs floating through it on magical elevators.

The shear volume of hero mechs fielded speaks volumes about the capabilities of $$$ mechs vs. standard chassis: Misery, Dragon Slayer, Ilya, Firebrand all outnumbered their standard brethren (however the CTF-3D made a strong showing due to overwhelming benefit jump jets provide)
I eluded to it above, but it is worth mentioning again, the continuous barrage of $$$ consumables was an embarrassment, maybe next tournament we can have gold ammo too.
And I'll end with ECM, it was often hard to notice because the god mode used by the commentators, but you can calculate the effectiveness of ECM based on the number of LRM. I think I saw one LRM5 fired in all the matches I observed.

All this said, I do not want to disparage the capabilities of the pilots involved. I saw some amazing play and strategy, and I am sure that you would all do well in any format. This post was only a platform to illustrate the gross balance inequities that currently exist. Hopefully PGI watched the tournament as well, and didn't just subcontract the job to ngng.

[Wildstreak]

Black Suns v Team Fancybeer - Typical of my level's good games.

228th IBR v Clan Smoke Jaguar:
- Spiders with dual LLs were interesting, usually I see Spiders with 1LL + MLs/MPLs.
- SHD-2Ks with 2PPC & 3Streak, could work though there is the 90m minimum.
- Another one typical of my games though I have never had one decided by 1 kill vs 0 kill outcome. Usually it is something like 12-8.

Blackstone v Steel Jaguar Gaming - the one thing that stood out here is that BSK seemed to under ton themselves with 8 Cataphracts & 4 Jenners. I have not counted tonnage in other matches but all had some amount of different weight classes compared to BSK.

Disconnects - I noticed a few games had these after start though not as many as I see PUGging, this usually means you have to hunt the discon down. I know I am not alone in wanting any discon to be treated as an instant kill credited to no one similar to a OOB suicider (Duke Nukem!) or someone destroyed by Turrets. Right now, this only happens to some discons at start, usually those who fail to connect. Someone who connects then discons is different.

A.C.E.S. v Comstar Irregulars - Having now seen the NGNG video:
- I like how LRMs were used especially by the Awesomes who did not traditionally stay in the back 700-1000 range doing a lot of Indirect Fire that typically wastes shots and requires too much ammo. Still I think Medium LRM boats are better.
- The A1s spamming LRM5s similar to the Kintaro builds that do it, I heard the reasons why and still think LRM5 boats spamming is a bad idea. The shake effect is not that great and should not be buffed, LRM5s are more for Lights wanting some small means of long range fire than for boat spamming. Much more effective for Mdiums and up to take 1 big or 2 mid size launchers.
- Again as in other videos, I now see the Jenner-Fs so all CB available Jenners have appeared.
- Someone actually tried a Commando-2D so all ECM Mechs showed at least once.

Possible match rigging?
I read a comment or few about this largely focused on House of Lords and some Jaguar team (I forget which) not being paired first round. Initially I dismissed this because I do not know the meta teams well enough but now seeing the only 2 teams using LRMs in Skirmish, I wonder if there was match rigging.
I understand match rigging's good and bad points.
- It would be bad to send an LRM team against a non-LRM team because if the LRM teams lose, this only further validates the community opinion of the meta, no judging team quality here. This will be seen I hope in a future Round.
- It would also be bad if two teams considered to strongly have a chance at winning were paired early, if one won early, betting types would lay odds they had the best chance of winning then.
Still, if there was rigging going on, I do not know if it was a good idea. Seeing some LRM top tier teams face non-LRM teams would provide useful information.
As to the second, I just don't know where teams rank and really don't care so long as matches are good, I got some good insight on writing I am working on regarding Maps & Modes for Forest Colony.

Match Views
What does it say regarding number of viewers of matches?
At the time I write this offline earlier today:
Most - Clan Wolf Delta v Russian Clan Wolf at 920
Least - 228th IBR v Clan Smoke Jaguar at 199
Overall Average of 16 matches - 418.4375
I know
-- some players just do not visit forums so will not see videos.
-- there might be some repeat viewing, I know I watched on match twice at different times because I missed some data the first time.
How many 12 man teams are actually out there but meta and non-meta?
How many do not watch because they tried to get in but failed to make the limited slots with full teams? I know some teams were not full until late after they submitted and got rejected for that.

[Vassago Rain]

Merchant, on 21 May 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Black Suns v Team Fancybeer - Typical of my level's good games.

228th IBR v Clan Smoke Jaguar:
- Spiders with dual LLs were interesting, usually I see Spiders with 1LL + MLs/MPLs.
- SHD-2Ks with 2PPC & 3Streak, could work though there is the 90m minimum.
- Another one typical of my games though I have never had one decided by 1 kill vs 0 kill outcome. Usually it is something like 12-8.

Blackstone v Steel Jaguar Gaming - the one thing that stood out here is that BSK seemed to under ton themselves with 8 Cataphracts & 4 Jenners. I have not counted tonnage in other matches but all had some amount of different weight classes compared to BSK.

Disconnects - I noticed a few games had these after start though not as many as I see PUGging, this usually means you have to hunt the discon down. I know I am not alone in wanting any discon to be treated as an instant kill credited to no one similar to a OOB suicider (Duke Nukem!) or someone destroyed by Turrets. Right now, this only happens to some discons at start, usually those who fail to connect. Someone who connects then discons is different.

A.C.E.S. v Comstar Irregulars - Having now seen the NGNG video:
- I like how LRMs were used especially by the Awesomes who did not traditionally stay in the back 700-1000 range doing a lot of Indirect Fire that typically wastes shots and requires too much ammo. Still I think Medium LRM boats are better.
- The A1s spamming LRM5s similar to the Kintaro builds that do it, I heard the reasons why and still think LRM5 boats spamming is a bad idea. The shake effect is not that great and should not be buffed, LRM5s are more for Lights wanting some small means of long range fire than for boat spamming. Much more effective for Mdiums and up to take 1 big or 2 mid size launchers.
- Again as in other videos, I now see the Jenner-Fs so all CB available Jenners have appeared.
- Someone actually tried a Commando-2D so all ECM Mechs showed at least once.

Possible match rigging?
I read a comment or few about this largely focused on House of Lords and some Jaguar team (I forget which) not being paired first round. Initially I dismissed this because I do not know the meta teams well enough but now seeing the only 2 teams using LRMs in Skirmish, I wonder if there was match rigging.
I understand match rigging's good and bad points.
- It would be bad to send an LRM team against a non-LRM team because if the LRM teams lose, this only further validates the community opinion of the meta, no judging team quality here. This will be seen I hope in a future Round.
- It would also be bad if two teams considered to strongly have a chance at winning were paired early, if one won early, betting types would lay odds they had the best chance of winning then.
Still, if there was rigging going on, I do not know if it was a good idea. Seeing some LRM top tier teams face non-LRM teams would provide useful information.
As to the second, I just don't know where teams rank and really don't care so long as matches are good, I got some good insight on writing I am working on regarding Maps & Modes for Forest Colony.

Match Views
What does it say regarding number of viewers of matches?
At the time I write this offline earlier today:
Most - Clan Wolf Delta v Russian Clan Wolf at 920
Least - 228th IBR v Clan Smoke Jaguar at 199
Overall Average of 16 matches - 418.4375
I know
-- some players just do not visit forums so will not see videos.
-- there might be some repeat viewing, I know I watched on match twice at different times because I missed some data the first time.
How many 12 man teams are actually out there but meta and non-meta?
How many do not watch because they tried to get in but failed to make the limited slots with full teams? I know some teams were not full until late after they submitted and got rejected for that.

You won't see LRMs used by the actual top-tier players.

The two most powerful teams running this tourney are LORDS and steel jaguars, who have a 99.9% chance of fighting in the finals.

This really needed to be swiss, not silly single elimination.

[Wildstreak]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 20 May 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Has anyone mentioned that Forest Colony is a SMALL map, and that all teams deployed limited numbers of poptarts due to the inopportune terrain. Most units took at least a few brawlers for the inevitable close quarters, wait until we see a more meta-friendly map, all you will see is red smoke and mechs floating through it on magical elevators.

The shear volume of hero mechs fielded speaks volumes about the capabilities of $$$ mechs vs. standard chassis: Misery, Dragon Slayer, Ilya, Firebrand all outnumbered their standard brethren (however the CTF-3D made a strong showing due to overwhelming benefit jump jets provide)
I eluded to it above, but it is worth mentioning again, the continuous barrage of $$$ consumables was an embarrassment, maybe next tournament we can have gold ammo too.
And I'll end with ECM, it was often hard to notice because the god mode used by the commentators, but you can calculate the effectiveness of ECM based on the number of LRM. I think I saw one LRM5 fired in all the matches I observed.

All this said, I do not want to disparage the capabilities of the pilots involved. I saw some amazing play and strategy, and I am sure that you would all do well in any format. This post was only a platform to illustrate the gross balance inequities that currently exist. Hopefully PGI watched the tournament as well, and didn't just subcontract the job to ngng.

Reading the first, I can agree with that. I believe the only Meta Friendly Maps would be the Finals, Crimson Strait, possibly the Semis with Caustic (but that's Conquest) and a good chance the Quarters with River. I believe Round 2 will have less of a Meta feel being Conquest on Frozen, there will be some Meta but also Brawl and Light use.

The only real volume of Heroes is the Dragon Slayers due to the Energy in the Torso, Miserys were the only Stalkers I recall (may have been one or two others) and Embers. I recall few to no Ilyas because the 3D is the only Cataphract with JJ and Jagermech-DDs and -Ss outnumbered the Firebrand adding up all 16 matches.

The consumables may not have been MC versions, get enough GXP and you can buy the 15K GXP Unlock that turns CB Arty/Strikes into the MC version, no $$$ spent.

LRM5 spam from one side and LRM15 waves from the other were in the A.C.E.S. vs Comstar Irregulars match.

Agree on ECM.

[wanderer]

Comstar Irregulars really didn't get any firepower out with their missile launchers- it was definitely a matter of ACES swinging good punches with their Awesomes, and neither is going to be a poster child for LRMs being part of the meta unless ACES manages to fight an organized team and they end up showing well.

That being said, ACES did do it right.

[Mystere]

Lyoto Machida, on 19 May 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Was waiting for someone to make this thread. Not surprising no LRMs...where's all the LRM whiners now?

El Bandito, on 20 May 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

They are in low elo threads.

In that case, can we now have LRMs back at 175m/s or even much higher?

[Kjudoon]

Mystere, on 22 May 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

In that case, can we now have LRMs back at 175m/s or even much higher?

THIS^^^

....will never happen with the current mindset.

[wanderer]

I think one would have to see more than the only two teams with LRMs in round one before saying anything.

Heck, you really didn't see Cicadas out there other than the two in ACES fire lance either- most people would have gone with the standard Raven-3L for ECM cover instead. But for sheer hit-like-a-brick missile salvos, the -8R beats out even stuff like Stalkers, simply due to it's 4x15 tube configuration. The next best really are Battlemaster-1S, who can put out a focused LRM 50 strike vs. the -8R's 60.

I'd be divided on that. Sure, you put 10 missiles less downrange, but the BLR can do it longer, with a marginally narrower spread, and with a bit more backup firepower/armor. All it'd take is swapping one of the Cicadas down to the more favored Raven-3L.

[Lyoto Machida]

wanderer, on 22 May 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

I think one would have to see more than the only two teams with LRMs in round one before saying anything.

Heck, you really didn't see Cicadas out there other than the two in ACES fire lance either- most people would have gone with the standard Raven-3L for ECM cover instead. But for sheer hit-like-a-brick missile salvos, the -8R beats out even stuff like Stalkers, simply due to it's 4x15 tube configuration. The next best really are Battlemaster-1S, who can put out a focused LRM 50 strike vs. the -8R's 60.

I'd be divided on that. Sure, you put 10 missiles less downrange, but the BLR can do it longer, with a marginally narrower spread, and with a bit more backup firepower/armor. All it'd take is swapping one of the Cicadas down to the more favored Raven-3L.

As an LRM pilot, the 1S replaced my 8R, mainly due to higher speed for better positioning. Recently dusted off my 8R and it still smashes PUGs in the right circumstances.