42 replies to this topic

[Pottertown]

Nothing. I don't understand all the complaining about anything that's not a PPC or AC. I always have some lasers, and my main/fave build is laser only with which, frankly, I destroy everyone with. I'm 1.5 w/l and over 2.0 k/d. Routinely top the charts, and a few times a night I finish a match laughing at how much damage I've caused and kills I've gotten.

Can you guys explain in some rational and calm way what the issue is? Because it honestly feels like so many people complain for the sake of complaining. I'm totally engrossed in the game and think it's awesome. I played it as a kid and i'm jacked that it's so good now.

If you hate it THAT much, do yourself, and those of us who do like the game a favor, and do something else. The forums are not even readable because of the incessant whining, moaning and complaining. It really is embarrassing that you keep banging your head against the same wall without making a change if you guys really can't stand the game...

That is all.

[Mcgral18]

The heat system doesn't favour them. Their spread damage is less favourable. Their range is 2x, less than ballistics.

Can't sustain fire in a brawl. They have their upsides as well: low weight, hitscan and a recycle rate that matches the heavier ballistic weapons.

All in all, a poorer choice but not a bad one. Sub-optimal.

[Koniks]

I'd add that their beam also means you have to face a target which decreases the ability to spread damage on your own torso compared to PPCs and ACs.

A good player with steady aim can do well with lasers, especially in faster mechs. But they're still inferior to the alternatives.

[Bobzilla]

The real problem with lasers is they are too hot, and spread their damage. That and they do less crit damage.

No one is saying you can't use lasers, but if you are as good aiming a laser as you are projectiles, the projectiles are much more effective, and have a better range.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

The heat system doesn't favour them. Their spread damage is less favourable. Their range is 2x, less than ballistics.

Can't sustain fire in a brawl. They have their upsides as well: low weight, hitscan and a recycle rate that matches the heavier ballistic weapons.

All in all, a poorer choice but not a bad one. Sub-optimal.

They make far better fire support weapons, than brawling weapons. Definitely needs some ACs and be a supplement to that though.

Bobzilla, on 21 May 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

The real problem with lasers is they are too hot, and spread their damage. That and they do less crit damage.

No one is saying you can't use lasers, but if you are as good aiming a laser as you are projectiles, the projectiles are much more effective, and have a better range.

Especially UACs.

[Thorqemada]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Nothing. I don't understand all the complaining about anything that's not a PPC or AC. I always have some lasers, and my main/fave build is laser only with which, frankly, I destroy everyone with. I'm 1.5 w/l and over 2.0 k/d. Routinely top the charts, and a few times a night I finish a match laughing at how much damage I've caused and kills I've gotten.

Can you guys explain in some rational and calm way what the issue is? Because it honestly feels like so many people complain for the sake of complaining. I'm totally engrossed in the game and think it's awesome. I played it as a kid and i'm jacked that it's so good now.

If you hate it THAT much, do yourself, and those of us who do like the game a favor, and do something else. The forums are not even readable because of the incessant whining, moaning and complaining. It really is embarrassing that you keep banging your head against the same wall without making a change if you guys really can't stand the game...

That is all.

I have a cicada that currently sits on a 2,0 W/L and 4,8 K/D and that means nothing - AC and PPC outperform Lasers big way and that you have a good performance is either you use a Mech that is in itself one of the best, you use a Light (or Cicada), you play in a Premade-Team fighting PUGs, or you fight Noobs.

Edited by Thorqemada, 21 May 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

The above reasons listed by others basically.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say...

[Funky Bacon]

Nothing is wrong with lasers. They are probably the most balanced weapons in the game. It's just that everything else is either somewhat better or worse.

[Pottertown]

Thorqemada, on 21 May 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I have a cicada that currently sits on a 2,0 W/L and 4,8 K/D and that means nothing - AC and PPC outperform Lasers big way and that you have a good performance is either you use a Mech that is in itself one of the best, you use a Light (or Cicada), you play in a Premade-Team fighting PUGs, or you fight Noobs.

As far as I can tell, I play a chassis/variant that is NOT one of the best - BLR 1G, which is not light, I do not play premades generally, and with the amount of games i'd say i'm playing a wide mix.

I play some ppc/ac builds and yes when you are brawling it's not a comparison. But I find it is easier to guarantee a specific body part gets shredded when i'm zeroing in with my lasers than popping off rounds.

Now to be fair, I don't play competitive and i'm not playing in a big premade vs another premade, so i'm sure that's where all the l33t's play. But that backs up my point even more. If people are THAT serious about a god damn video game, why the hell don't they pick one they like?

[Koniving]

From "Why use a PPC when heat is better for LL?"

Koniving, on 20 May 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Pinpoint damage, superior range, more damage, instant damage, compatible with cold weapons like autocannons.

In the source material, it was actually 8 damage and 8 heat for the LL, 5 tons. (450 meters).
PPC was 10 damage, 10 heat, 7 tons. (540 meters).
ER LL was 8 damage and 12 heat. (570 meters).
ER PPC was 10 damage(Inner sphere; 15 damage Clan), 15 heat. (690 meters).

However, in past games Lasers worked like MWO's autocannons; mostly front loaded damage. Which was deemed overpowered when you compare instant damage even when a combination of 30 would shut you down. (Actually it wasn't that bad in MW3 where 30 heat was used as the limit. MW2 Titanium Edition used 40. However, MW4 used 60 threshold as its limit which defeated the whole purpose of the heat system. MWO uses between 40 minimum and 88.56 maximum for the Inner Sphere before any map factors are thrown in).

PGI changed autocannons from their lore-rooted damage over time mechanic to instant front-loaded damage and turned lasers into beam weapons. The result has made most PPCs and autocannons compatible where in the past they were very incompatible.
So instead of the best damaging weapons having limited range and incredible heat preventing boating, it's now "okay heat" of the PPC combined with "ice cold" autocannons. Now we have our new gameplay mechanics abusing meta and somehow this doesn't seem to click with the lead designer as a problem.

Koniving, on 20 May 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Pinpoint damage. It's instant damage in exactly one spot. A large laser fires over 1 second, and does 9 damage spread out over one second.
If a large laser does damage every 0.1 seconds, it'd deal 0.9 damage each time.
0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9.
or 0.9 * 10 = one Large Laser.
So lets say I spread my laser on your left leg, left torso, left torso, left arm, the air, left arm, side torso, center torso, the other side torso, right arm, and air

I did 0.9 damage to your left leg. 0.9 damage to your left torso twice (so 0.18), 0.9 damage to your left arm, 0 damage to the air, 0.9 damage to your left torso, 0.9 to your CT, 0.9 to your RT, 0.9 to your right arm, and then the air again.

That's 0.9 leg.
2.7 damage to your left torso.
0.9 damage to your left arm.
0.9 damage to your chest.
0.9 damage to your right torso.
0.9 damage to your right arm.
That means I did 1.8 damage to the air.

In total I did 7.2 damage, and lost 1.8 damage to the air.

Now if I fired a PPC and missed, I did 10 damage to the air. Basically a waste. But if I fired and hit you in the left torso, I did 10 damage to your left torso. That's it, done.

--------

ECM. This makes mechs invisible to sensors.
Being hit by a PPC disables the ECM for several seconds.

Don't forget that a medium laser fires once every 4 seconds (1 second beam + 3 second cooldown that doesn't start until the beam ends = 4 seconds to fire again).
A Large Laser fires once every 4.25 seconds. (1 second beam + 3.25 second cooldown).

This is the damage rate in 10 seconds of all of MWO's ACs, Lasers, PPCs, Gauss, etc., before the AC/2 and AC/5 nerf. As well as predicted rates of UACs and RACs assuming the 'rules' were followed and translated into PGI's version of the rules.

Spoiler

AC/2, 38 damage in 10 seconds.
UAC/2, 78 damage in 10 seconds. (2 extra compared to double since there's a failure to fire the last shot in one case at the cutoff point. Otherwise both would be up by 2 more on top of this.) (UAC/2 in TT does 4 damage in 10 seconds.)
RAC/2, 228 damage in 10 seconds. (RAC/2 in TT does 12 damage in 10 seconds)
Flamer, 7 damage in ten seconds.
MG, 10 damage in 10 seconds. (All 3 of these are supposed to do 2 damage in 10 seconds).
Small laser 12 damage in 10 seconds. (3 damage in 10 seconds)
AC/5, 30 damage in 10 seconds. (5 damage in 10 seconds)
UAC/5, 65 damage in 10 seconds. (UAC/5 would do 10 damage in 10 seconds in TT.)
RAC/5, 205 damage in 10 seconds exactly. (RAC/5 would do 30 damage in 10 seconds in TT).
Medium laser, 15 damage in 10 seconds ( 5 damage in 10 seconds)
AC/10, 50 damage in 10 seconds (10 damage in 10 seconds).
UAC/10, 100 damage in 10 seconds (perfectly timed to fire all shots). (UAC/10 would do 20 damage in 10 seconds in TT.)
PPC, 30 damage in 10 seconds (10 damage in 10 seconds).
Gauss Rifle, 30 damage in 10 seconds (15 damage in 10 seconds).
Large Laser, 27 damage in 10 seconds (8 damage in 10 seconds).
LPL, 31.8 damage in 10 seconds (9 damage in 10 seconds).
AC/20, 60 damage in 10 seconds (20 damage in 10 seconds)
UAC/20, 140 damage in 10 seconds. (UAC/20 would do 40 damage in 10 seconds in TT. The Hunchback II-C Clan mech sporting twin UAC/20s would do a total of 80 damage in a single turn. In the only lore source I've found so far, it's described that each UAC/20 requires firing 6 shots to do 20 damage, and can double its firing speed to pump out 12 damage in the same time frame [at risk of jamming] to churn out 40 damage.)

UACs and RACs are under the assumption of not jamming of course, with firing rate broken down to be twice to six times that of Inner Sphere ACs as was the case of tabletop.

But lets lay that out there.

• ML, 15 damage in 9 seconds including all beam times.
  
• LL, 27 damage in 9.5 seconds counting all beam times.
  
• LPL, 31.8 in 8.3 seconds counting all 3 beam times.
  
• PPC: 30 damage in 8 seconds.
  
• Clan ER PPC: 45 damage in 8 seconds (assumption).
  
• Gauss Rifle, 30 damage (45 if you extend that time limit to 10.25 seconds).
  
• AC/2, 38 damage in 10 seconds (Pre-Nerf!).
  
• AC/5, 35 damage in 10 seconds (Pre-Nerf).
  
• AC/20...60 damage (in 8 seconds)..
  
• UAC/20... 140 damage (in 10 seconds, 120 in 8 seconds).

From an intelligent design standpoint:

What's wrong with the laser? Nothing.
What's wrong with the PPC? Nothing.
What's wrong with the Gauss Rifle? A lot.
What's wrong with the Autocannon: Everything.

But, if you go by the meta, it becomes this:
What's wrong with the laser? Everything.
What's wrong with the PPC? Too hot.
What's wrong with the Gauss Rifle? Too slow.
What's wrong with the Autocannon? Nothing at all.

Funky Bacon, on 21 May 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Nothing is wrong with lasers. They are probably the most balanced weapons in the game. It's just that everything else is either somewhat better or worse.

This. Though MGs were originally the most balanced weapon in the game.

Edited by Koniving, 21 May 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Harathan]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Nothing. I don't understand all the complaining about anything that's not a PPC or AC. I always have some lasers, and my main/fave build is laser only with which, frankly, I destroy everyone with. I'm 1.5 w/l and over 2.0 k/d. Routinely top the charts, and a few times a night I finish a match laughing at how much damage I've caused and kills I've gotten.

Can you guys explain in some rational and calm way what the issue is? Because it honestly feels like so many people complain for the sake of complaining. I'm totally engrossed in the game and think it's awesome. I played it as a kid and i'm jacked that it's so good now.

If you hate it THAT much, do yourself, and those of us who do like the game a favor, and do something else. The forums are not even readable because of the incessant whining, moaning and complaining. It really is embarrassing that you keep banging your head against the same wall without making a change if you guys really can't stand the game...

That is all.

Every post above mine gives you many compelling reasons. Most of them are completely obvious. Do you play the same game as the rest of us?

[DEMAX51]

The long and short of it is this: if you can aim ballistics as well as you can aim lasers, ballistics are better. Here're just a couple of random reasons why:

Ballistics are front-loade damage, and that's the one huge factor. This alone allows you to:
- Better utilize torso twisting and cover, because you don't have to keep your target painted for a full second like you do with lasers.
- All ballistic damage is applied to one specific part of a 'Mech, instead of the potential damage spread of a laser with a 1-second beam duration.
- Since they do all their damage in one chunk, they do more crit damage.


Also:
- Ammo is plentiful, and ammo explosions are rare
- Ballistics are significantly lower heat
- They have much greater range than lasers, and with 3x max range as opposed to 2x max range for lasers, damage drop-off over distance isn't as extreme

[kapusta11]

Spread is fine, by the time ppc projectile reaches its target most of ERLL damage will be already applied, and its quite good against poptarts since you can start dealing damage on sight. I've used quad ERLL Highlander a lot and perform nearly as goog as with my Gaussphract. It's the heat that killing all pure energy builds, and 2x range.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 May 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Pottertown]

Ok here's my thoughts on the main points thus far:

Range: My play style makes it somewhat irrelevant because i'm always within LL range or i'm doing my best not to engage. Besides nobody really gets that many kills trying to snipe. You might scare someone but unless you're playing a complete tool they won't stay exposed long enough at range.
Front loaded: Yes I understand this, I also understand frontloading the dmg to the wrong section of armor, or the air. I'll take a .9dmg arm glance followed by 8.9 RT all day long.
Targetting: I greatly prefer that the lasers fire where my reticle is. It's hard enough to lead a moving target in the real world let alone a game with a mix of pings. I can lead AC/PPC just fine, but I find it's far more consistent dmg with a laser held on them.
I can twist/cover just fine while my lasers refresh. It gives you that fraction of a second to zero in (see above) and get your damage out.
Ammo: No matter how much ammo I bring, I always want more, or I want whatever it was that I had to drop for that ammo. I also like having a few body parts that can fall off without my whole match being ruined.

Could be i'm stupid. Could also be that i'm playing the weapons to their strengths rather than obsessing on their weaknesses.

Edited by Pottertown, 21 May 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Ok here's my thoughts on the main points thus far:

Range: My play style makes it somewhat irrelevant because i'm always within LL range or i'm doing my best not to engage. Besides nobody really gets that many kills trying to snipe. You might scare someone but unless you're playing a complete tool they won't stay exposed long enough at range.
Front loaded: Yes I understand this, I also understand frontloading the dmg to the wrong section of armor, or the air. I'll take a .9dmg arm glance followed by 8.9 RT all day long.
Targetting: I greatly prefer that the lasers fire where my reticle is. It's hard enough to lead a moving target in the real world let alone a game with a mix of pings. I can lead AC/PPC just fine, but I find it's far more consistent dmg with a laser held on them.
I can twist/cover just find while my lasers refresh. It gives you that fraction of a second to zero in (see above) and get your damage out.
Ammo: No matter how much ammo I bring, I always want more, or I want whatever it was that I had to drop for that ammo. I also like having a few body parts that can fall off without my whole match being ruined.

Could be i'm stupid. Could also be that i'm playing the weapons to their strengths rather than obsessing on their weaknesses.

My favourite build is the WubShee, which consists of 8 pulse lasers. I know the advantages and disadvantages of the weapon system.

They are far from optimal. But they are weapons that will deal damage.

The biggest issue after heat is that 1 second (or .6s) burn time which you have to stare at your opponent. While he can be twisting and spread that damage, if he has FLD he will hit what he wants while you aim your damage, or if you twist away mid beam your damage is less effective.

Lasers are not the worst weapon out there. That still belongs to Flamers. And missiles with yesterday's patch.

[DEMAX51]

Don't get me wrong man, I like lasers too. The 6ML Jenner is still my favorite build to play. But...

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Besides nobody really gets that many kills trying to snipe.

That's just patently wrong, at least at higher skill levels. Dual gauss & PPC/AC5 snipers can knock off components left and right, and kill Lights in one shot. All it takes is to expose yourself for a fraction of a second and you're dead.

Quote

Front loaded: Yes I understand this, I also understand frontloading the dmg to the wrong section of armor, or the air. I'll take a .9dmg arm glance followed by 8.9 RT all day long.

And that's why I said if you can aim with ballistics as well as you can aim with lasers they're better. If you need the burn-time of lasers to get your shots on target more reliably, that's a different story.

Quote

Targetting: I greatly prefer that the lasers fire where my reticle is. It's hard enough to lead a moving target in the real world let alone a game with a mix of pings. I can lead AC/PPC just fine, but I find it's far more consistent dmg with a laser held on them.

Again, lasers are only "far more consistent" if your aim with ballistics isn't as reliable. Once you're practiced, leading targets isn't very hard at all, and all weapons suffer from some hit-reg issues due to ping difference.

Quote

I can twist/cover just fine while my lasers refresh. It gives you that fraction of a second to zero in (see above) and get your damage out.

Yeah, you can still torso twist with lasers, but you can torso twist sooner with ballistics. You only need about 1/10 of a second to fire off a shell from a ballistic, giving you an extra .9 seconds to twist/mitigate your damage over lasers.

Quote

Ammo: No matter how much ammo I bring, I always want more, or I want whatever it was that I had to drop for that ammo.

Might be a difference in our playstyle - maybe you spam your fire more than I do - but I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've run out of ammo, and I almost always have at least 2 medium lasers to use when that happens.

Quote

I also like having a few body parts that can fall off without my whole match being ruined.

That is entirely dependent on the variant you use, not whether you use ballistics or lasers.

Quote

Could be i'm stupid. Could also be that i'm playing the weapons to their strengths rather than obsessing on their weaknesses.

I'm not saying you're stupid, and you may well be playing your lasers to their strengths, but there are just more strengths to ballistics.


Lasers aren't inherently bad, they're just not as good.

[Lykaon]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Nothing. I don't understand all the complaining about anything that's not a PPC or AC. I always have some lasers, and my main/fave build is laser only with which, frankly, I destroy everyone with. I'm 1.5 w/l and over 2.0 k/d. Routinely top the charts, and a few times a night I finish a match laughing at how much damage I've caused and kills I've gotten.

Can you guys explain in some rational and calm way what the issue is? Because it honestly feels like so many people complain for the sake of complaining. I'm totally engrossed in the game and think it's awesome. I played it as a kid and i'm jacked that it's so good now.

If you hate it THAT much, do yourself, and those of us who do like the game a favor, and do something else. The forums are not even readable because of the incessant whining, moaning and complaining. It really is embarrassing that you keep banging your head against the same wall without making a change if you guys really can't stand the game...

That is all.

With the current damage dealing mechanic we have a severe disparity between weapons that front load damage and weapons that don't.

A front loading damage weapon applies all of it's damage to a single point of impact on a target at the instant of impact.So if that weapon does 10 damage the location hit will always recieve 10 damage.

Now lasers do not front load damage.The laser damage mechanic is a hit scan beam that deals portions of the total damage over a brief time period.The advantage is you can adjust the beam to correct a miss allowing for some damage to hit the target.This would be the one and only advantage lasers have over the AC class of weapons (some would argue no ammo is an advantage but I strongly feel this is offset by the heat burden of energy weapons)

The downsides of Lasers are as follows.

The nature of the laser's damage dealing mechanic requires the firing mech to have it's weapons free of interviening obsticals.This means a mech firing lasers can not make full use of cover while firing and sustaining aim at the target area.

Conversley a Mech firing a PPC or AC can poke out fire and return to cover because the weapon fired front loads damage.Jump sniping or poptarting is an evolution of this technique using jumpjets to optimize cover use while engaging the enemy.

Lasers firing a beam that has a duration also means that the damage inflicted on a target less consistant than damage applied by the front loading method.A target hit by a laser can have the laser's damage distrubuted over several location (and even have a partial miss) if the target and/or firing mech moves.Further more a target of a laser may activley manuver to distribute the damage by torso twisting,this disperses the damage over several mech body locations (or even partialy missing)

Front loaded damage weapons like a PPC will always apply their full damage to a single target location if it hits.This is clearly superior.A PPC is aimed at the CT of a mech and hits dealing 10 damage.Meanwhile a large pulse laser is fired at a mech's CT and the target jinks and torso twists resulting in 3 damage to the CT 3 damage to LT and 3 damage to the LA.Not an ideal result the PPC will destroy all of a 50 ton mechs CT armor in 5-6 hits the large pulse due to dispersed damage will take more than three times as many hits to accomplish the same level of damage to the CT as long as the target is activley attemting to evade damage concentrations.

Compounding the superior damage dealing mechanics of front loading is the disparity between lasers and ACs in heat efficiency and sustained damage dealing ability.

Using smurfy mechlab as a source of data you can build variants of mechs with AC based weapons and compare to a laser based platform of equal tonnage.The results are very eye opening.

Starting with the Centurion mech chassis as a basis I built two Centurions (a CN9-a and a CN9-AL) both mechs use 10 tons of standard armor endosteel chassis 275 standard engines and double heatsinks.


The Centurion CN9-A equiped with a single AC10 4 tons of ammo and 10 DHS has the following stats:

Cooling Efficiency: 167%

Sustained DPS: 4.0

Ideal Range: 563m

Time until Overheat: never can not overheat

Total payload (weapons/ammo/heatsinks): 16 tons


The Centurion CN9-AL armed with 4 medium pulse lasers and 18 DHS

Cooling Efficiency: 56% (111% lower)

Sustained DPS: 3.73 (.27 lower)

Ideal Range: 217m (346m fewer)

Time until Overheat: 25 seconds (VS never)

Total Payload (weapons/ammo/heatsinks): 16 tons.

16 tons dedicated to an Autocannon so outclasses the same tonnage dedicated to lasers I fail to see the reson the base a mech's weapon off lasers.

What I am saying is given equal tonnage and aproximate skill the mech with the front loading damage will defeat a laser equiped mech easily.It is the mechanic that tips the scale not pilot skill.

Conclusion lasers are second class and mainly useful as back up weapons for AC/PPC based builds.

This to me is the single largest obstical to weapon balancing and should be addressed first.

Edited by Lykaon, 21 May 2014 - 12:45 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 21 May 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

In the source material, it was actually 8 damage and 9 heat for the LL, 5 tons. (450 meters).
PPC was 10 damage, 10 heat, 7 tons. (540 meters).
ER LL was 8 damage and 12 heat. (570 meters).
ER PPC was 10 damage(Inner sphere; 15 damage Clan), 15 heat. (690 meters).

er...Kon?

In the source Material, Large Lasers? They have ALWAYS been 8 damage, 8 heat (NOT 9), at 15 hexes (450 meters)

Might wanna adjust that for future use.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 May 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Typo.

[kapusta11]

Both FLD and DOT have their pros and cons. The main reason why Lasers suck is that you simply can't fire them as often as you do with ballistics beacuse of broken heat system, hell, you can't even alpha more than 2 large lasers without Ghost Heat penalty - that's only 18 alpha. Lower range is stupid as well.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 May 2014 - 12:44 PM.