185 replies to this topic

[Koniks]

IraqiWalker, on 28 May 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

My example was specifically based on a cataphract hitting at over 900 meters. Where no sensors can see it, and it will deal crazy damage compared to the damage of a light sniper.

At 900m a CTF can't deliver a 30 point alpha. The AC5s should be hitting for 2-3 damage each and the PPCs are hitting for about 6. They're also not pinpoint at that range since they travel at different speeds and the AC/5 is going to drop due to gravity.

That's a lot different than an ERPPC or 2xERLL.

[Domoneky]

ECM is way way way too OP. Why? Because it means I cant target the other team. That alone makes it OP. Anything that helps the other team is Too OP in my opinion and needs to be nerf.

Spoiler

This is sarcasm

[DodgerH2O]

Tesunie, on 28 May 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

I thought you said something about 200m... but I'm not infallible, I just always blame someone else instead. (It's his fault!)

Sensor ranges are between 850m (standard) to 1000m (BAP + Increased Sensor Range Module). Very few weapons are truly "effective" outside 1000m.

Not entirely relevant to the discussion, but this is not quite correct. Standard sensor range is 800m. Sensor Range module (upgraded) alone will increase this to 1000m. BAP alone will also increase this to 1000m. Both together increases sensor range to 1200m.

Edited by DodgerH2O, 28 May 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Domoneky, on 28 May 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

ECM is way way way too OP. Why? Because it means I cant target the other team. That alone makes it OP. Anything that helps the other team is Too OP in my opinion and needs to be nerf.

Spoiler

This is sarcasm

Okay, now let's see if you'd feel the same if ECM caused your ACs or lasers to fire in a random one inch circle on an ECM target with no ability to control it or refuse to fire till you did get lock? How much sarcasm now?

Edited by Kjudoon, 29 May 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[focuspark]

Just wanna play, on 28 May 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

but but my teachers say Wikipedia badddddd

For the uninformed it can be a disaster. However, in general it's extremely good. Even with all this information at our finger tips, it's still better to pull from experience and wisdom to make informed decisions.

[Wildstreak]

Tesunie, on 28 May 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Though I played MW2... I don't get what you are saying here... Farther explanation please? (I'm probably just being dense... again...)
Are you meaning, "get a lock, fire, and then swing your reticule up as high as it can as fast as you can to give your LRMs an indirect arc"? Could be nice, but with how we have to hold locks, and everything comes out in one "burst", the current missile system would not be compatible with this concept. (Please correct me if I am incorrect with what you are meaning.)

I played MW2 all three also with the straight firing LRMs.
According to this site, at least in Mercs you could make your own arcs for Indirect Fire. The relevent section from Missiles:

Quote

Let the targeting reticle sit near an enemy for a moment and when it turns red, it means you've got a lock. After a lock is achieved, you can twist your torso in a different direction, allowing you to fire at enemies over cliffs and around buildings.

This method made you use skill in guessing the arc needed to fire over and around obstacles / terrain. Never knew of it or tried it but I can see where it would work. It works like this:
1 - Get lock.
2 - Move reticle off target to the spot you want to make the arc before losing lock.
3 - Fire before losing lock.

Would not need streaming Missiles ala MW2, the same grouping we have can be kept.

[Koniks]

You can currently bend missiles with the same technique in MWO. Though it's more useful for firing around the hill 10m in front of you than the building 10m in front of your target.

[Kjudoon]

I love the fact that we've had the concept of indirect fire since we could throw rocks, but so many think it shouldn't be in MW because... well... they die from it and it's just not 'canon'.

[oldradagast]

For 1.5 tons, ECM grants your mech and any allies near it a cloaking field from sensors. With some careful maneuvering - not bumbling around out in the open as if ECM makes you invisible - you can get the drop on opponents. That level of tactical control is unlike anything else on the battlefield and is thus very powerful. Sure, it can be countered, but that requires other equipment and some level of teamwork, whereas the ECM mech has the radar stealth field going all the time, no other equipment, teamwork, or skill required.

Is it broken? I would say "no" - but that's only because of countermeasures that were added in later. Thanks to BAP, PPC's knocking out ECM, and other such effects, ECM can actually be handled. But back in the early days of open Beta, ECM was stupidly overpowered. There was literally no way to counter it unless you had ECM of your own, it basically prohibited anyone from using LRM's as a main weapon, and matches were generally won or lost based upon who had the most ECM - DDC's Atlas's in particularly. So, ECM is now merely "very good" vs. "completely game warping" as it was before.

Finally, running a missile boat without BAP is just asking for an ECM light to park itself behind your and shut down your missiles, which is not good, IMHO.

[Kjudoon]

oldradagast, on 29 May 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

For 1.5 tons, ECM grants your mech and any allies near it a cloaking field from sensors. With some careful maneuvering - not bumbling around out in the open as if ECM makes you invisible - you can get the drop on opponents. That level of tactical control is unlike anything else on the battlefield and is thus very powerful. Sure, it can be countered, but that requires other equipment and some level of teamwork, whereas the ECM mech has the radar stealth field going all the time, no other equipment, teamwork, or skill required.

Is it broken? I would say "no" - but that's only because of countermeasures that were added in later. Thanks to BAP, PPC's knocking out ECM, and other such effects, ECM can actually be handled. But back in the early days of open Beta, ECM was stupidly overpowered. There was literally no way to counter it unless you had ECM of your own, it basically prohibited anyone from using LRM's as a main weapon, and matches were generally won or lost based upon who had the most ECM - DDC's Atlas's in particularly. So, ECM is now merely "very good" vs. "completely game warping" as it was before.

Finally, running a missile boat without BAP is just asking for an ECM light to park itself behind your and shut down your missiles, which is not good, IMHO.

Soooo... you're saying I need to 2.5 tons of equipment (TAG BAP) and 3 slots to deal with a system that provides sensor invisibility outside of the BAP range (when it works) or between 150-750m if you can lay a lock on them with TAG which then shows your position to the enemy. And that also is contingent on whether or not the Tag and BAP works, which is highly intermittent in my experience.

IF this is balanced, let's start having ECM shut down targetting for all weapons. After all... it's 'balanced'.

[GunnyKintaro 01]

I think if the other weapons where guided by a weapons systems then yes they should be shut down great point .. Or maybe it should shut down the the cross hairs... Man that would not make it easy.. I mean you would have to put the middle of your screen on target and then shoot ...

[Domoneky]

Well Kjudoon.....One: weapons like autocannons and lasers requiring a target lock is just silly.
Two: If ECM causes what you say then I guess I better stay outside 180 meters then huh?
There are many ways to counter ECMs. TAG, NARC, Another ECM, UAV Drone, Direct fire weapons (I.e. Autocannons and lasers) And Dumb-fire missiles (i.e SRM 2-6, arty, air strike)
What this is is a failure/refusal to Adapt. Weapon systems ad equipment are going to change. Constantly. Either adapt to the changes or just die on the battlefield. Are there some changes i'm unhappy with? Why yes there is. I'm also unhappy with these damn meta builds of 2xAC5 2xPPC and poptarting but you know what? I he to adapt to beating those builds. I Pilot a D-DC with a loadout I've had for a long time and its pretty effective. Not a big brawler build, not a damn missile boat. 2x ERLL LRM10 w/ Artemis and an A/C 20 with ECM. I've had this build since CB and yet I usually deal damage at the average of 500+ I have to deal with enemy ECMs a lot but I adapted. Direct fire weapon thy name is ac 20. I had to deal with poptarts a lot but I adapted. Used the Terrain and hit them rom behind. Lurm boats? Adapted. ECM/ terrain like buildings to ether they run out of ammo or I get in their min range. Do you see the pattern I'm trying to get across? This pretty much goes to everyone.

You Need to Adapt either your loadouts or tactics to remain effective in game.

[CaptainDeez]

Kjudoon, on 29 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Soooo... you're saying I need to 2.5 tons of equipment (TAG BAP) and 3 slots to deal with a system that provides sensor invisibility outside of the BAP range (when it works) or between 150-750m if you can lay a lock on them with TAG which then shows your position to the enemy. And that also is contingent on whether or not the Tag and BAP works, which is highly intermittent in my experience.

IF this is balanced, let's start having ECM shut down targetting for all weapons. After all... it's 'balanced'.

If your tag isn't working your aim is off. If your bap isn't working, it was shot.

The Tag alone is a good bet, ECM mechs are afraid of it, simple. Sweep a tag across the team, tap the targetting key to broadcast their location and you've effectivley ruined an entire teams strategy for a mere 1 ton. Considering the other option might be allowing the enemy team to walk up unsighted and immune from missiles, I call that a bargain.

My ECM spider w/ tag can rack up +100,000 credits without firing a single shot through Tag's spotting/narc bonuses. It will contribute waaay more to the team than an extra ML.

[Kjudoon]

Domoneky, on 29 May 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Well Kjudoon.....One: weapons like autocannons and lasers requiring a target lock is just silly.
Two: If ECM causes what you say then I guess I better stay outside 180 meters then huh?
There are many ways to counter ECMs. TAG, NARC, Another ECM, UAV Drone, Direct fire weapons (I.e. Autocannons and lasers) And Dumb-fire missiles (i.e SRM 2-6, arty, air strike)
What this is is a failure/refusal to Adapt. Weapon systems ad equipment are going to change. Constantly. Either adapt to the changes or just die on the battlefield. Are there some changes i'm unhappy with? Why yes there is. I'm also unhappy with these damn meta builds of 2xAC5 2xPPC and poptarting but you know what? I he to adapt to beating those builds. I Pilot a D-DC with a loadout I've had for a long time and its pretty effective. Not a big brawler build, not a damn missile boat. 2x ERLL LRM10 w/ Artemis and an A/C 20 with ECM. I've had this build since CB and yet I usually deal damage at the average of 500+ I have to deal with enemy ECMs a lot but I adapted. Direct fire weapon thy name is ac 20. I had to deal with poptarts a lot but I adapted. Used the Terrain and hit them rom behind. Lurm boats? Adapted. ECM/ terrain like buildings to ether they run out of ammo or I get in their min range. Do you see the pattern I'm trying to get across? This pretty much goes to everyone.

You Need to Adapt either your loadouts or tactics to remain effective in game.

Ah... L2P.



Final score from the tournament where I faced 2-4 ECM on the opponent's team on average.

Now what?

1. You're right it is silly. The same way TAG being blocked by ECM is ludicrous inside of 200m, and massively delayed outside of it when mutiple ECM is about. Yes, I have filed a service ticket on that, and got a "Working as intended" response. ECM isn't supposed to block visual aiming buffs... but what the hey, this isn't real life so internal plausability only. Ignore the fact that means it should scramble targetting for all weapons, not just guided ones since it can screw up laser painting. It's silly, indeed.

Dumb fire? Ever tried it? If the speed of LRMs was that of SRMs, then maybe this is a feasable suggestion, but generally speaking outside of 500m like all good LRM targets should be, it's foolishness. Yes, it catches the unaware, shut down or close range, but this is like saying play without your hud for direct fire snipers. Only a rare few are going to do well with it.

2. The "Many Ways" argument that when you break it down by weight/slot/module is still massively in favor of the ECM being the dominant force on the battlefield. Why? Because every counter to ECM is highly situational and useless when ECM stacks while it's own stacking only provides a bonus that can also be lost instantly at any moment. Of course NARC is there but that's still more than double the size and weight of an ECM, lasts for only 30 seconds and you still must hit with it, requiring a mech to devote a sizeable part of it's weapons weight to it the smaller the mech.

It's obvious you do not respect those who can be good LRM mechs, and since your DDC is my favorite target, I can understand the bitterness.

I have adapted to a broken mechanic, but that does not mean a broken mechanic is right and should not be fixed just because you personally benefit from the exploit.

[Domoneky]

I never said L2P. I mean L2A Learn to Adapt.
1: You sure its 200m and not 180? Anyone using Ta within 180 doesn't have their target info broadcasted. Within the ECM bubble any target info is stopped. Similar to the Thor ECM that Marines use to go out on patrol. It counters remote detonated IEDs by cutting off the receiving transmitter from a cell phone or radio
2: Yes Dumb Fire. LRM Dumb fire is inaccurate as hell. However SRMs are ment to be a direct fire dumb missile system. Not the STREAKS...the Normal SRMs
3: If your not willing to put your mech into the line of fire to try and TAG someone then either take the risk in hoping someone else does or just forget it all together.
I respect LRM Mechs. I respect all on the field. But its obvious you don't like people with ECMs Sometimes you got to sacrifice firepower for what you can do for Victory.

[IraqiWalker]

Kjudoon, on 29 May 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Okay, now let's see if you'd feel the same if ECM caused your ACs or lasers to fire in a random one inch circle on an ECM target with no ability to control it or refuse to fire till you did get lock? How much sarcasm now?

That's the whole point of ECM. That's it's sole purpose, to nullify Streak LRMs (which is what we have right now), and to also deny your enemy information. That's all it does. The fact that people are in uproar because this system counters 2% of the weapons being used on the field, while it has at least 5+ counters is funny to me.

Kjudoon, on 29 May 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I love the fact that we've had the concept of indirect fire since we could throw rocks, but so many think it shouldn't be in MW because... well... they die from it and it's just not 'canon'.

Indirect fire has always been there in BT canon, from Artillery to Streak LRMs and even regular LRMs. What we have in the game is Streak LRMs, not regular LRMs, that's what people are talking about.

Kjudoon, on 29 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Soooo... you're saying I need to 2.5 tons of equipment (TAG BAP) and 3 slots to deal with a system that provides sensor invisibility outside of the BAP range (when it works) or between 150-750m if you can lay a lock on them with TAG which then shows your position to the enemy. And that also is contingent on whether or not the Tag and BAP works, which is highly intermittent in my experience.

IF this is balanced, let's start having ECM shut down targetting for all weapons. After all... it's 'balanced'.

A few mistakes there:
1- You only need of the following to shut down ECM: TAG (1 ton 1 slot), or BAP(1.5 tons, 2 slots), ECM (1.5 tons, 2 slots), Energy weapons, PPCs, Ballistic weapons, SRMs, Dumbfired LRMs, UAV, arty, and Airstrikes.

2- Don't do things your mech isn't built for. If you're not the spotter, let them worry about countering it. If you are the LRM boat, you probably shouldn't have LOS to TAG by yourself, that's for the lights. Same thing with countering ECM.

3- Ballistic and energy weapons don't need locks, however, we usually don't see the status of the mech when it's under ECM, but we're still shooting the hell out of it.

So I guess it is balanced, since it's doing exactly what your suggested, to ballistics and energy weapons.

TAG breaking through ECM when you are under it's bubble makes no sense at all. TAG emits a signal that comes from the source mech and is broadcast to missiles in flight. The problem arises when you are under ECM because ECMs massive broadband signal corrupts the guidance signal, so the missiles never receive it in the first place. That's why TAG is left for light mechs that can always stay on the outskirts of the battlefield. Or for long range support mechs, who do the same thing.

Also, high score or not, his (Domonkey) points are still valid. Lu-Bu was a great warrior, probably had the highest kill score of his era. Simo Hayha too. However, neither one of them was good with tactics. Being goo at killing, isn't necessarily being good at tactics. Now one thing you can do to clarify your standpoint a bit more is tell us if you are having problems with ECM, or if you are arguing in a general sense, because this is a point you think should be addressed.

I'm an LRM boat pilot myself, and I'm defending ECM. Instead of going against it, hell, I want NARC to stop breaking through it. I don't carry any TAG on my Battlemaster (4MLs instead), nor BAP (if they are within BAP range, my LRMs are already useless, and advanced sensor range allows me to get locks at 1000 meters, no need for more sensor range than that). Do I hate it when the enemy team has lots of ECM, yes, but I can counter it, and I can still use my 2500 missiles to suppress the hell out of any advance they make while our direct fire mechs get set up. Once that happens, everyone instinctively will try to bring down the ECM mechs. Since most of them are usually the Atlas D-DC. If not, I will request they do so. Until that happens, I will keep dumb-firing LRMs as area denial and suppression, until the ECM mechs are brought down.

That's when dropping solo, in group drops it's not a problem for me at all. My lance already knows to prioritize ECM mechs, especially when there are LRM mechs on our team.

on the other hand, I think ECM stacking needs tweaking/removal.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 29 May 2014 - 03:24 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Merchant, on 29 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

This method made you use skill in guessing the arc needed to fire over and around obstacles / terrain. Never knew of it or tried it but I can see where it would work. It works like this:
1 - Get lock.
2 - Move reticle off target to the spot you want to make the arc before losing lock.
3 - Fire before losing lock.

Would not need streaming Missiles ala MW2, the same grouping we have can be kept.

I personally use free look to either, just keep my torso pointed around hills while using arms to keep reticle over lock or to make my arms (on cat) to return to lock after firing (get lock, press free look aim arms over hill, fire, then release free look and arms come back down to locck)

[Wildstreak]

Mizeur, on 29 May 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

You can currently bend missiles with the same technique in MWO. Though it's more useful for firing around the hill 10m in front of you than the building 10m in front of your target.

Actually, you do not need to bend missiles in MWO. They have a built in arc.
MW2 have zero built in arc. You fire them, they go in a straight line to your target unless either he moves and/or you move the reticle off target.
The MW2 lock also lasts longer when the reticle is taken off.

[Koniks]

Merchant, on 30 May 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

Actually, you do not need to bend missiles in MWO. They have a built in arc.
MW2 have zero built in arc. You fire them, they go in a straight line to your target unless either he moves and/or you move the reticle off target.
The MW2 lock also lasts longer when the reticle is taken off.

You do when someone's trying to escape around a building or hill. Or you're trying to get back behind a building or hill. Or you're trying to fire over a hill that the natural arc doesn't compensate for enough.

Edited by Mizeur, 30 May 2014 - 10:39 PM.

[ShinVector]

Kjudoon, on 29 May 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

I have adapted to a broken mechanic, but that does not mean a broken mechanic is right and should not be fixed just because you personally benefit from the exploit.

Sure I lost the match but it just shows that people have to learn to adapt when dealing with ECM.
Yep... Learn to Adapt and use you mechs to its full potential.

Should be up in an hour. Refer to the 9 min mark.