185 replies to this topic

[Vanguard319]

Merchant, on 23 May 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Did anyone see the list of Clan variants proposed? Russ put it on Reddit and someone said none of them come with ECM stock like the IS ECM Mechs do.


And with this, you ruin your entire post making any point(s) invalid.
But they were even without this.

Doesn't invalidate my argument at all, the people complaining simply can't be bothered to work out solutions so they cry about how something is OP. This is a thinking man's game, don't like my observation about some players and grapefruit? Might be time to start thinking.

[IraqiWalker]

Wesxander, on 23 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

ECM being over powered is from the same people that think ac 20's should shooting range 400 plus and doing full damage.
Fact is ac 20 should only be range 275 that's it not 300 10 damage etc etc...
ECM biggest strongest ability not rated here is causes certain 3rd party auto aimers fits. Regardless what you say I have seen guys who never miss no matter how hard the shot is suddenly can't at range 800 on an ecm mech shooting at them. It's as if their 3rd party program is having a fit not being able to see the target to auto aim for them....
LRM's should not using indirect fire the way they are but since it is being used that way ecm makes up for it some.
Ridiculous how the shooters will defend x2 and x3 range bonus and state that ECM AND LRMS are over powered we can't beat something that strong.

You want fix the biggest over powered bug in the game go after the guys that gave every weapon (lasers and cannons that is) in the game the ability shoot as far as LRMs for free. That's biggest op thing done in this game but the "Shooters" out there consider that op goody mandatory now not to be touched.

Pretty sure autoaiming is almost impossible with the way MW:O is set up now.

ALso, it would not be affected by ECM, as aimbots generally read the coordinate of all units on the map, and fire at them. So ECM or not, aimbots would be just fine. However, I don't think any/many of them exist in this game with the current server control.


Most weapon ranges are also within their TT and lore numbers.

Merchant, on 23 May 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Did anyone see the list of Clan variants proposed? Russ put it on Reddit and someone said none of them come with ECM stock like the IS ECM Mechs do.

The Kitfox C will have ECM, we're hoping they let us have the right arm for that config available for purchase. They mentioned that many of the variants that are way too similar to the ones being included in the game will not be added, but the omni pod that sets them apart will be added. So the Kitfox C is very similar to the A config, instead of wasting time adding the whole mech, they just add the right arm which carries the ECM suite.

As fort he grapefruit comment, He's not really that far off from the truth. 70% of all players are just running around with the mob and shooting at what they see. It's rare when a match starts with people suggesting/recommending tactics, everyone just groups up, and charges like it's 1530 and we all have muskets that need to be fired 12 paces from each other.



What it's boiling down to, right now, is that if people weren't so uncoordinated, most complaints about ECM would go away. However, since brain dead mob mentality rules most matches, ECM has too big an impact on the battles.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2014 - 02:45 PM.

[Tesunie]

Vanguard319, on 23 May 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

To all those still crying about ECM:

You don't fight by your opponents rules, you make your own rules and force the other guy to fight by yours. All war is deception. I'm sure there are people in here who played assault where you slaughtered the other team only to lose to the lights capping your base. You knew it was a viable tactic, but you chose not to keep a fast force in reserve, yet I'm sure you still cried about how it was cheating. Can't launch LRMs because your opponents are under an ECM blanket? Do you not have any ECM of your own? If you do, why aren't you using the ECCM feature? How about UAVs, they counter ECM beautifully or can you not afford 40k for one? Have visual on them? Just drop Artillery strikes on the whole huddled mass as mailin suggested?

Though, I agree that it is tactically best to force your opponent to fight on your terms, however there are some aspects you can't control.

In a PUG match, what if your team ends up with no ECM, and 5 LRM mechs? Your opponent ends up with 5 ECM mechs, 8 fast mechs, and it's conquest? Your team are all slow moving units?

There are some aspects you can't control. In a PUG match, team composition is outside of your control. Just like how people use their mechs are outside your control. Someone may have ECM on your team, and instead of counting that lone ECM unit in the emeny team they are tap dancing through, they decide not to... (sometimes a good choice, sometimes not.)

Basically, I agree with you. In a perfect team/tactical concept, you are correct. Then, provided there are proper counters to things, it wouldn't matter how broken any one aspect could/would be, as the right team/tactic could take it down. In the imperfect teams/tactics/gameplay that happens, especially in PUGs, this statement can quickly make a single piece of gear that is too strong becomes vital, and can be an imbalance in a random group. (Not saying this is always the case, but it can be. I've had matches where my team was ECMed to death. Other matches with balanced amounts of ECM, but the enemy was using theirs in a better fashion. Example one (ECMed to death) is a problem. Example two (ECM being used differently) is great and proper.)

(I ask you to please not misinterpret what I am trying to say... because I don't know if I'm saying it quite right at the moment...)

[focuspark]

Kjudoon, on 22 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I wonder if ECM would be considered OP if it was the weight and slots of a PPC? 7 tons / 3 slots? Boy... those light ECM mechs would then be given a choice. Weapon or shield. Of course, I still think if Electronic warfare is going to be so important to the game like this, XP and Cbill rewards for ECM use, Narc, Tag, Bap and spotting need to be a lot more. You know... I think doing this would be the simplest, easiest thing to do to balance ECM. It forces real choice, and you can bet those ECM ravens, spiders and commandos would just about vanish from the game.

Why not make MWO ECM more like real ECM, that's self balancing: the emitter is very visible and nearby targets are difficult to detect (due to the EM brightness of the emitter) relative to their distance from the emitter? The actual formula is <effective strength> = <emitter strength> / <distance from emitter> ^ 2.

[IraqiWalker]

focuspark, on 23 May 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

Why not make MWO ECM more like real ECM, that's self balancing: the emitter is very visible and nearby targets are difficult to detect (due to the EM brightness of the emitter) relative to their distance from the emitter? The actual formula is <effective strength> = <emitter strength> / <distance from emitter> ^ 2.

Interesting idea, however that is not how this ECM works. The broadband signal it transmits scrambles everything in a radius around it. Meaning that it(the emitter) is also covered by the signal.
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

EDIT: so far the only reasonable modification has been to make it work just like it did on TT. By making it extremely hard for locks to occur on mechs within it's bubble, and any hostile mechs inside it can't transmit information out.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2014 - 04:22 PM.

[The Flying Gecko]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

What it's boiling down to, right now, is that if people weren't so uncoordinated, most complaints about ECM would go away. However, since brain dead mob mentality rules most matches, ECM has too big an impact on the battles.

This is a much more eloquent way of saying what I was attempting to allude to in my post.

[Wildstreak]

Vanguard319, on 23 May 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Doesn't invalidate my argument at all, the people complaining simply can't be bothered to work out solutions so they cry about how something is OP. This is a thinking man's game, don't like my observation about some players and grapefruit? Might be time to start thinking.

When you figure out what thought is, let us know.
Because your argument is invalid, remains invalid and will continue to be since you cling to a delusion.
There is little thought needed for this game.

[IraqiWalker]

Merchant, on 24 May 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

There is little thought needed for this game.

I beg to disagree with you on that statement. Yeah you can play MW:O without putting much thought into it. However, you are very wrong. The teams that utilize tactics, and actually think of a plan, will almost always perform better than those that do not. If your statement were true, then 12 pugs vs a 12 man, shouldn't be a problem for the pugs (yes I know that pugs can win those, but 1% does not a majority make), when in fact it is pretty much a slaughter-fest in favor of the premades who do use tactics. Even the presence of one premade that is coordinated can sway the match in favor of the team with the 2-4 player group. Despite what you might think, coordination is part of thinking.

[Vanguard319]

Merchant, on 24 May 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

When you figure out what thought is, let us know.
Because your argument is invalid, remains invalid and will continue to be since you cling to a delusion.
There is little thought needed for this game.

Judging from the most recent posts, I'd say a few people agree with my observations. Also, quite a few agree that coordination with one's team mates is the key to victory.

If I'm deluded, then what does that make you?

Edited by Vanguard319, 24 May 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Wildstreak]

IraqiWalker, on 24 May 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

I beg to disagree with you on that statement. Yeah you can play MW:O without putting much thought into it. However, you are very wrong. The teams that utilize tactics, and actually think of a plan, will almost always perform better than those that do not. If your statement were true, then 12 pugs vs a 12 man, shouldn't be a problem for the pugs (yes I know that pugs can win those, but 1% does not a majority make), when in fact it is pretty much a slaughter-fest in favor of the premades who do use tactics. Even the presence of one premade that is coordinated can sway the match in favor of the team with the 2-4 player group. Despite what you might think, coordination is part of thinking.

While true, teamwork and ECM being broken are 2 different things for the same reasons I will post to the crazy guy while thinks he is rational.

Vanguard319, on 24 May 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Judging from the most recent posts, I'd say a few people agree with my observations. Also, quite a few agree that coordination with one's team mates is the key to victory.

And every one of them, including you, is forgetting something vitally important about the History of MWO, something that should make you ashamed of your Founder's badge.

In the time I have been here, I have seen the same position presented in response to any major problem. L2P, teamwork, etc.

It was said in response to the first LRM problem. Still LRMs were found to have a problem and got fixed.
It was said in regards to PPCs before they got nerfed some.
It was said when people considered MGs to have problems. MGs got changed.

See the trend? Anytime something is considered to be OP and someone like you says, "L2P, Teamwork, etc.," the result is things change.

Therefore, thanks for admitting ECM needs a change by following the trend.

Finally if teamwork is OP, then why in the days before ECM-Stealth could it not be used to win? The argument you try to make goes against you, not in your favor.

Vanguard319, on 24 May 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

If I'm deluded, then what does that make you?

Someone who should be ashamed of his Founder's badge. It means you have been here long enough to know everything I said to be true thus proving your argument wrong.

Didn't think I had to explain the firking obvious to someone who has been here this long.

[IraqiWalker]

Merchant, on 25 May 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Finally if teamwork is OP, then why in the days before ECM-Stealth could it not be used to win? The argument you try to make goes against you, not in your favor.

Teamwork has always been the biggest decider of winning and losing. It doesn't matter what mechs you bring. Teamwork will win. Always has, always will.

As for your other reasons, yes, I mentioned ECM could use some tweaking. However, the real reason why it seems OP is lack of communication and coordination. If those issues were solved, ECM would have a significantly smaller impact on the matches you complain about.

[White Bear 84]

My ECM beats your tag when I am behind you shooting LL into your rear torso...

[Tesunie]

White Bear 84, on 25 May 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

My ECM beats your tag when I am behind you shooting LL into your rear torso...

Your anything beats their anything when you are shooting anyone in the rear...
(And Actually, ECM can give you away depending upon how close you get. When I start to see the ECM effects on mu HUD, I start looking...)

[VXJaeger]

OP should be kickbanned, that's OP.

[IraqiWalker]

Tesunie, on 25 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Your anything beats their anything when you are shooting anyone in the rear...
(And Actually, ECM can give you away depending upon how close you get. When I start to see the ECM effects on mu HUD, I start looking...)

That's one thing I do when I am sneaking up on people. I disable ECM when I am within 200 meters of an enemy, or sneaking around. That way, they don't get the "Low Signal" effect, while I am spotting them for my teammates. Or shooting them in the legs so they don't know where it's coming from.

[CaptainDeez]

Tesunie, on 25 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

(And Actually, ECM can give you away depending upon how close you get. When I start to see the ECM effects on mu HUD, I start looking...)

Heck when I see low signal bars over an ally, I start looking that way.

[Wildstreak]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

Teamwork has always been the biggest decider of winning and losing. It doesn't matter what mechs you bring. Teamwork will win. Always has, always will.

As for your other reasons, yes, I mentioned ECM could use some tweaking. However, the real reason why it seems OP is lack of communication and coordination. If those issues were solved, ECM would have a significantly smaller impact on the matches you complain about.

Well, sorry, no matter how much anyone tries to use teamwork as an excuse, ECM-Stealth needs to die. Its reason and time is over. If anything, the Stock matches prove this even more.

[focuspark]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

Interesting idea, however that is not how this ECM works. The broadband signal it transmits scrambles everything in a radius around it. Meaning that it(the emitter) is also covered by the signal.
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

EDIT: so far the only reasonable modification has been to make it work just like it did on TT. By making it extremely hard for locks to occur on mechs within it's bubble, and any hostile mechs inside it can't transmit information out.

See.. I'm referring to real world electronic counter measures and you're quoting from Sarna.

I suppose we're both right, because if we take the real world analogies too far we lose the walking tanks.

[IraqiWalker]

focuspark, on 26 May 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

See.. I'm referring to real world electronic counter measures and you're quoting from Sarna.

I suppose we're both right, because if we take the real world analogies too far we lose the walking tanks.

I figured that's what you were referring to. That's why I said "this ECM".

If the game was built more realistically we probably wouldn't have Mechs, and ECM would be functioning realistically.

[Kjudoon]

The tourny has gone to great lengths to prove to me how broken ECM is. Even more than LRMs, ECM is completely dominating the battlefield in every match. When it is not there, LRMs or no, the games seem quite balanced, I never see a Spider or Cicada or Commando that isn't ECM. Ravens and Atlas do occasionally show up without them, but rarely.

But it has made me realize there are three ways to quickly balance it. In order of desirability.

Increase the size and weight to that of a PPC.
or
Remove the radius effects.
or
1 ECM per lance only per team.