22 replies to this topic

[OSUNightfall]

I apologize if this gets asked all the time, but i played a lot in beta back when the founders packs were released. There was a lot of potential for the game at the time, but also a lot of problems. Eventually my friends and I decided to wait for the game to mature a bit. At the time I left, it was all MPLS boats, Cats with giant weapons in the cockpit slots, SRM salvo mechs, and so on. No matchmaking. There was still a lot of balancing left to do, you all know, you were there.

The question I have is basically: how is the game these days? Have they fixed a lot of those early issues? Is the game design stable at this point? What are the current balancing issues of the day? Which problems were fixed, which remain, and which are new? I'm not looking for comprehensiveness, I'd just like to get a feel for the game's current "pulse", if anyone will be kind enough to indulge me.

Edited by OSUNightfall, 22 May 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Edwyndham]

'Ghost Heat' - whereby boating a single weapons system incurs a drastic heat penalty - was a response to a dominant 4-PPC meta that reigned for awhile. Though it is less penalizing on laser boats and IIRC doesn't affect MPLS at all.

It's been high-alpha meta for a long time, especially with poptart / jumpsniping. For awhile, it was either 2 ER PPC / Gauss or 4 PPC. Ghost heat killed the 4 PPC so people shifted solely to 2 PPC/Gauss. Then they added some weird charge-time mechanic to gauss to desync the PPC/Gauss combo. So, in response, people switched to 2 PPC / AC10 meta. Then PGI slowed down the bullet speed of AC10 to discourage that meta. So people are now currently using 2 PPC 2 AC5 as the dominant high-alpha meta build.

They released ECM around Jan 2013 with a mechanic that made it impossible for LRMs to target anything in the ECM bubble, which made AS7-D-DC and RVN-3L the kings of the battlefield. TAG helps you burn through it. They haven't changed the mechanic since then, but have introduced a few 'soft counters', i.e. a direct PPC hit disables ECM for 4 seconds, BAP is supposed to counter ECM in a certain short range, deployable UAV can burn through ECM.

LRMs have gone through various cycles of being OP/UP. Currently they are okay.

Turns out SRM boating was due to obscene damage caused by wonky splash damage mechanics. So they turned down the splash damage, and SRMs have been lackluster ever since. The splatcat has not returned since. Streaks, which used to core out a light like nothing else, are now set to randomly target locations on the mech. They still murder lights, just less so.

There are now private lobbies that you have to have premium time enabled to use. Matchmaking is awful, and it's more or less been 'ROFLstomp or be ROFLstomped' ever since 12-mans were introduced.

They introduced UI 2.0 and it was awful. They then patched some features to make it less awful.

Community Warfare still isn't here. It's not really anywhere on the horizon. Though shiny clan mechs are coming soon.

[Koniving]

You're going to get some negative feedback due to the recent attempt at implementing 3/3/3/3 which failed horribly. There was also a missile bug but it got fixed within 30 hours. So it is going to sound worse than it really is.

Its in a mixed state. Things work better, hit registration is superior to back then. But delayed convergence is gone and the addition of armlock has turned pinpoint shots into a nightmare. Many things have shifted.

There's good and bad things. Clan mechs are around the corner next month.

ECM isn't anywhere near as bad as it used to be. But that doesn't mean they fixed it to match the lore either. Just a lot of hard and soft counters to keep it in check.

Community Warfare, though slated for around now from September, was more realistically targeted August earliest by Russ himself.

Two new maps are on the horizon, but are waiting for certain specific elements of Clan mechs and CW to be finished first before real work from the small team can be done to finish those.

[Redshift2k5]

There will always be dominant builds, and there will always be times when you feel a particular loadout or mech is "cheap" or "cheesy", although there are much worse things to worry about than K2s with dual ballistics; many more mechs can now match those loadouts so the venerable K2 is no longer the priority threat it was two years ago.

Weapon balance & mech balance is actually pretty good. The current cookiecutter builds tend to rely on AC5 and PPCs for long-range, pin-point damage, but LRM mechs are also viable and good lights never go out of style. SRMs are currently the red-headed step child and are underperfoming, flamers are mostly useless, but all other weapon types are doing just fine. AC5/PPC might be the "meta" but many builds & mechs are viable or play.

Best way to experience it is to play, or at least go for some ride-alongs with some Twitch streamers like the NGNG crew.

[Racklesnack]

zwanglos, on 22 May 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

There are now private lobbies that you have to have premium time enabled to use.

You only need to have premium time active for certain features of private matches i.e groups less than 12 v 12

[LiGhtningFF13]

Pretty much the same except some new mech variants. So no worries still fun!

[Iqfish]

LiGhtningFF13, on 22 May 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Pretty much the same except some new mech variants. So no worries still fun!

That depends on personal views, to be honest. A lot of player stopped playing and moved on, just because of the reason you gave.

Still the same. No new things to play, except some terribad new mech chassis

[Barkem Squirrel]

One thing I have not seen is that they now allow for private matches.

you can determine the weight limit, map, number of people on the teams and time out to 20 minutes.

Of course for now you have to have premium time I think for the two leaders for the event. (please correct me on this).

We have gone from the raven as being unhitable to now watch out or you will be legged. We also have the squishy Locust running around legging people that are careless.

They have also look at the hitboxes for certain mechs and made changes, so no cockpiting Cats with 1000m snapshots any more.

The one problem before was boating of a certain type of weapon, so instead of just raising heat or reload times, PGI created ghost heat. Shoot a 7 PPC Battlemaster and wait one or two minutes to blow up.

You can not just run up a hill anymore, the size of the mech will make a major difference on if you can or how fast.

It is hard to say that one class of mechs is the dominant mech.

With 12 v12 compared to 8v8 there is a difference, it is harder for one good player to affect the outcome of the match.

[Redshift2k5]

Barkem Squirrel, on 22 May 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

One thing I have not seen is that they now allow for private matches.

you can determine the weight limit, map, number of people on the teams and time out to 20 minutes.

Of course for now you have to have premium time I think for the two leaders for the event. (please correct me on this).

Private matches are, themselves, free, if you run a full 24 player match and don't need additional rule changes. Running fewer than 24 players and making modifications to the rules needs two team leaders with premium time running.

[TheCaptainJZ]

People complain about the MM more than anything else, but I've had a much better experience with it than without it back in beta. I mean, I used to lose 60% of my matches. Since the MM works to average you out with a 1:1 win/loss ratio (whether that's for better or for worse for any given player is another debate), mine has fit that ratio ever since. I've also become a much better player and generally have favorable kill to death ratios too (without running the meta).

[FlipOver]

As you see, some things have changed, not many for the better.

So, to you I say:

Welcome back, enjoy the game for what it is: A Robot Battle-Royal or World of Tanks with legs.

Edited by FlipOver, 23 May 2014 - 07:07 AM.

[OSUNightfall]

Thank you all for your informative replies. Now that I have some idea what to expect, I will take a look in person and see if the time is right to return.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Load it up, log in, play it for 2 weeks. Then you'll understand.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

OSUNightfall, on 22 May 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

The question I have is basically: how is the game these days? Have they fixed a lot of those early issues? Is the game design stable at this point? What are the current balancing issues of the day? Which problems were fixed, which remain, and which are new? I'm not looking for comprehensiveness, I'd just like to get a feel for the game's current "pulse", if anyone will be kind enough to indulge me.

If you want the actual answers to your questions, you're going to need to play the game. It's free, all it'll cost you is time.

If, on the other hand, you actually want the Forum Answer, then it pretty much goes as follows:

Oh gods PGI is screwing up the game they don't know what they're doing there are never any updates THE GAME IS DOOMED PGI HATES THE PLAYERS THEY NEVER LISTEN TO ANYTHING AND THE BALANCE IS TERRIBLE ALL THE WEAPONS ARE OP EXCEPT THE ONES THAT ARE GARBAGE AND LRMS ARE EASY MODE AND MACHINE GUNS KILLED ME SO THEY MUST BE NERFED WE'RE ALL ON ISLANDS I HATE PGI THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT EVER AND THEY'RE GOING TO DESTROY THE FRANCHISE AND THE THINGS WE WERE PROMISED ARE NEVER GONNA HAPPEN IHATETHISGAMEBUTICOMEHEREJUST
TOCOMMENTONHOWBADITISFASKLD
FJASOUIDVHDAKLGHAISUDLOWAEH
TOIASDFGHISTEERINGWHEELUNDER
HIVEDEATHDEATHDOOMENDOFTHE
WORLDOHGODOHNO
ALLISWRONGANDHATEANDWRATH

But it's better to decide whether or not you like it on your own, really.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 23 May 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Koniving]

o.O;;;;;

Vids.

Spoiler

On a side note, the quality of trial mechs these days.




Slow lights are viable.


Meta Atlases don't mean much.

[Void Angel]

Koniving, on 22 May 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

ECM isn't anywhere near as bad as it used to be. But that doesn't mean they fixed it to match the lore either. Just a lot of hard and soft counters to keep it in check.

I don't think buffing ECM to match the game rules is really a good idea. =)

[Koniving]

Void Angel, on 23 May 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

I don't think buffing ECM to match the game rules is really a good idea. =)

You mean requiring the 12 slot consuming Stealth Armor to be invisible to sensors beyond 180 meters so that it takes 14 slots and 1.5 tons, and DOES NOT under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES affect streaks (unless Angel ECM, which is 2 tons)?

Why would that be a bad idea?

Edited by Koniving, 23 May 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Void Angel]

OSUNightfall, on 22 May 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

I apologize if this gets asked all the time, but i played a lot in beta back when the founders packs were released. There was a lot of potential for the game at the time, but also a lot of problems. Eventually my friends and I decided to wait for the game to mature a bit. At the time I left, it was all MPLS boats, Cats with giant weapons in the cockpit slots, SRM salvo mechs, and so on. No matchmaking. There was still a lot of balancing left to do, you all know, you were there.

The question I have is basically: how is the game these days? Have they fixed a lot of those early issues? Is the game design stable at this point? What are the current balancing issues of the day? Which problems were fixed, which remain, and which are new? I'm not looking for comprehensiveness, I'd just like to get a feel for the game's current "pulse", if anyone will be kind enough to indulge me.

Meh, it gets asked periodically, but it's always a valid question.

Like Kon says, it's a mixed state, but I think it's getting better. A lot depends on how well the dev team does with the Clan 'mechs, and how well they maintain progress going forward - a good case in point is the new UI, particularly the Mechlab. The Mechlab we have right now isn't what they wanted to do - but they (correctly) reasoned that it was more important to get the basic UI out by their deadline than to have trolls all around the forums take up yet another hue and cry about "promises."

In my view, the biggest problem with metagame balance is a predominance of long-range guns. The game rewards you instantly for hitting someone far away, but the rewards for moving under fire to close the gap or get a better position for brawling are deferred and depend on teamwork. So players are trained by the game to hide and camp near cover - to the point that they will sometimes refuse to move even when a major brawl is in progress outside of their chosen field of fire. Unsupported brawlers tend to die against concentrated teams, so bias confirmation sets in, people gravitate toward long-range guns and away from brawling, and bam - you've got a positive feedback loop operating in the PuG metagame environment.

That being said, I still enjoy the game, to include brawling - you just have to time it right - and so I think you will, too. It's certainly worth reinstalling the game and hopping back in. Just break yourself in with a sniper build. =)

[Void Angel]

Koniving, on 23 May 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

You mean requiring the 12 slot consuming Stealth Armor to be invisible to sensors beyond 180 meters so that it takes 14 slots and 1.5 tons, and DOES NOT under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES affect streaks (unless Angel ECM, which is 2 tons)?

Why would that be a bad idea?

Because that's not all there is to it. MWO's ECM is a mixed bag - in some ways more powerful, but in others less strong than the tebletop equivalent. When evaluating tabletop rules in relation to MWO, we have to remember to include the most applicable ruleset: the double blind rules outlined in the Tactical Handbook. According to those rules, ECM suites did indeed affect sensor spotting against the affected unit. Sensor spotting wasn't automatic, either. Plus, even in non-blind games, ECM hard-countered any equivalent-level active probes, Narc beacons, and Artemis systems that passed through line of sight of their AoE. This would probably translate into MWO as a system which reduces missile lockon times and target identification in a cone to infinity behind it, while still reducing the detection range of the equipped mech - and the penalties would stack additively. So while yes, they are more powerful in some ways, they're actually less useful in others, and slavishly reproducing the tabletop equipment could end up being a buff to the system overall, particularly with multiple equipped Mechs.

This is why I suggested - facetiously, you understand - that you were asking for them to be buffed, not nerfed.

[Koniving]

Void Angel, on 23 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Uh, so you know.. MWO's ECM does already affect Artemis, did previously affect NARC beacons, previously affected Beagles, etc. That already happened. But you notice, in TT it affected Artemis, NOT LRMs. It did not, under any circumstances, affect standard LRMs. It did affect lock on times but that's all.

At range you could target the enemy as an UNKNOWN red triangle and square that you can target, share with allies, and fire LRMs or Streaks at, with no information on it. Okay, that's a LOT better than NOT being able to target the ECM mech for only 1.5 tons and 2 slots.

We also have LRMs and Streaks negated, 100%, without use of soft or hard counters. Where streaks would never be negated, ever, and LRMs would only be negated at 180 meters or less.

So MWO's version,

• we can't use streaks or LRMs against ECM without BAP, TAG, or NARC.
  
• We'll never know where they are even if we can see them unless using TAG or NARC or PPCs.
  
• No one else will know where they are either.
  
• ECM has no requirement to 'cloak' the user. It has no requirement to cloak allies.
  
• Requires BAP to be able to use LRMs or Streaks while an ECM is within 180 meters.
  
• ECM standing next to a mech with tag can disable the TAG's effects within 180 meters (for anyone except against itself).
  
• An ECM standing next to BAP is pointless.
  
• 3 hard counters (ECM counters ECM, BAP counters ECM, NARC counters ECM), 4 soft counters (Target Info Gathering, Advanced Sensor Range, TAG, PPC) = 7 total counters.
  
• Even when hard countered by a BAP, the ECM's ability to delay lock-ons within 180 meters is still effective, making a lock on nearly impossible. See video.
  
• Jams radar, sensors at 180 meters.

Using Streaks, no bap. Relying on ally's bap to hard counter. Second match not the first.


TT's version of Guardian ECM.

• We can use LRMs liberally against them and their friends,
  
• streaks will never be affected. Period.
  
• We can always know where they are if we can see them, all teammates will know where they are.
  
• ECM can cloak the user with the 12 slot, non-dynamic Stealth Armor, consuming 2 slots in each leg, side torso and arm, significantly reducing weapon and heatsink potential (with a total cost of 14 slots and 1.5 tons).
  
• ECM can NEVER cloak ally units. Just cause lock-ons to be delayed.
  
• ECM can be used to disable NARC Beacons on ally units (same as old MWO ECM)
  
• ECM standing next to a mech with tag can disable the tag's effects within 180 meters (same as current). TAG has no effect on ECM mech in 180 meters.
  
• An ECM mech standing next to an enemy BAP can disable their ability to detect powered down mechs and its faster information gathering within 180 meters.
  
• Jams radar, sensors at 180 meters.

That's almost entirely on equal terms with some nerfs to the ECM and buffs to the missiles. It does also nerf BAP and NARC back to where they belong, but they would still be incredibly effective with the other buffs they got.
Now, TT does give some buffs. That doesn't mean it's 100% nerfs, I know. Lets look at the TT buffs.

• Create false targets. Allows you to create the illusion that allies are nearby when there aren't.
  
• Within 180 meters, ECM makes MAG and Thermal vision modes worthless.

Gotta say, TT's version is still inferior, as it's everything we have in MWO minus negating the entire missile set of weapons and situational awareness as to where the enemy is located. The buffs is creating lies that scouts need to investigate (encouraging role warfare) and making thermal a vision mode that isn't always used on non-hot maps.

Edited by Koniving, 23 May 2014 - 12:44 PM.