9 replies to this topic

[Buckminster]

I think we all agree that ghost heat is a bad solution to a problem. It's effective - no more 6 PPC Stalkers - but it doesn't address the actual problem.

The real issue is the variable heat cap. 20 double heat sinks gives a heat threshold of 64, even more if skilled. So all of a sudden, mechs have the ability to generate insane amounts of heat in the name of a high alpha, and that cooldown time isn't as important when you've just melted the mech facing you.

So ghost heat is introduced to limit the high alphas. It works to some degree - we don't see 6 PPC Stalkers anymore - but fails in other areas. Most notably, it is not obvious to the new players. Someone coming into MWO with a basic TT knowledge is going to get blindsided when their trial Stalker overheats and shutsdown while alphaing it's LRMs, never realizing that he was the victim to a ghost heat mechanic that he was never aware of.

So here's what I think the heat system needs:

A fixed heat cap
TT had the heat cap of 30 - once you reached that point you shut down. I say we keep it there. It'll immediately eliminate all of the brutal high-energy alphas. Two ERPPCs, or three PPCs, and you're done. It'll force people to fire their weapons in groups, because any attempt to fire everything at once will bring shut down.

Faster heat dissipation of heat sinks
I know the original heat dissipation values were based on the whole "10 second turn" theory. But that's been thrown to the side for the rate of fire of weapons, so I don't see why we can't do the same for heat sinks. Really just doubling the heat dissipation rates would do for the most part. Looking at the classic Warhammer, with it's 18 heat sinks and twin PPCs, which ran heat neutralish. Doubling the cooling rate of SHS makes that still mostly correct - if you fire both PPCs, by the time they've recharged (4 seconds) those 18 SHS will have taken care of most of the heat.

Make Double Heat Sinks actually double
Since heat sinks no longer affect the heat cap, DHS aren't nearly as overpowered. All they do is remove heat faster. They'll allow for mechs to run more weapons, but without that brutal high alpha, it's not nearly as devastating.

Add in a movement penalty at high heats
Maybe once you reach 25 heat, put in a movement penalty. Maybe every point over 25 gives you a 10% movement penalty. So running close to shutdown means you're only running at half speed. These kind of penalties existed in the TT game, and I think they belong in MWO - running hot used to be a huge gamble, because of movement and hit penalties and ammo explosions. With MWO as it stands, there's no reason to not run as hot as possible.

Modify the skill of Heat Containment
Switch Heat Containment to a +2.5 heat cap (5 when elite). This still gives you the skill effect, without allowing things to get out of hand. It also makes a nice twist for canon mechs like the Awesome - with the skill you would be able to alpha all three PPCs - at the risk of running slow!

The big thing for me has been that MWO's heat system breaks a lot of canon builds. The old Catapult C1 was heat neutral if it stuck to firing only it's medium lasers or LRMs. In MWO, it's just not a viable build unless you pay the 1.5 million C-bills for DHS. Almost all of the canon builds just aren't viable - there's a reason we call DHS the "1.5 million tax" on any mech purchase.

So hopefully you guys will take this to heart, and make some changes.

I'd also like to thank all of the forum guys that I've discussed this with - this idea didn't form in a vacuum.

[David Sumner]

This does make a lot of sense

30 heat = say 300 degrees = your C4 cooks off.
That doesn't actually change just because you dissipate the heat faster.

[Darren Hawke]

Bump. This is a wonderful idea.

[dak irakoz]

Bump for progress.

[Adamski]

I really like this idea, the lower the cap, the more often you have to turn back to reapply damage, instead of huge alpha, turn away while cooling down etc.

[Koniving]

Buckminster, on 24 May 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

To mention it...
In reducing threshold to 30, all heatsinks including single heatsinks will feel much faster without a single change. (Just by being that much smaller they will feel and simply speed by that much faster. It's like if you have a gallon and a half gallon jug, then take and flip the two over, even if they empty at the same speed the half gallon will always empty sooner just because it can't fill as much).

Currently 10 engine DHS (not added but coming with the engine) are already 2 times cooling; with elite skills that's 2.3 times cooling per DHS. Between 15 and 19 DHS, you have 0.21 to 0.24/sec cooling per heatsink due to the mech skill "cool run." This is compared to tabletop's 0.2/sec cooling per DHS. The mech skill "cool run" will need to be modified as well as it exponentially multiplies cooling rates through a percentage.

Heat containment has a fixed 20% increase. If threshold is also fixed, that simply means 30 becomes 36. Compare this to a 10 SHS mech with no unlocks (40 threshold). 36 isn't terribly bad. (Compared to your "5". Now, specific numbers are actually a good thing, as with variable numbers it won't exacerbate the 'boating' issue of heatsinks). I don't really mind either.

Movement penalty would make sense but PGI has explained why it can't be done. Same reason mechs don't go slow in water.

Instead, restore PGI's old heat penalty from closed beta. 80%+ heat sustained = ammunition and heatsinks begin to take damage. 100%+ heat, ammunition and heatsinks begin taking heavy damage. Preferably one thing at a time, once every second or so.
(Note this is instead of body damage. Now, 125%+ heat, perhaps override could stop functioning and the mech shuts down and lock that way until below 125%? This prevents the 'overheat suicide' occasionally done by players and shows "we mean business; play fair and manage your heat.")

To note: 30 threshold does mean 30 points of heat at any moment in time and you shut down. 3 PPC at once? Shutdown. 2 ER PPC at once? Shutdown. 4 LL at once? Shutdown. (Note: PGI lowered this way too much, it was higher heat).

Edited by Koniving, 02 June 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[Buckminster]

Cool Run would definitely need to be tweaked. Maybe set it up as a free heat sink's worth of dissipation, or something like that. But keeping it as a percentage would give a larger bonus to mechs that boat heat sinks. A fixed amount would also keep DHS from gaining extra advantage.

Doing the old internal damage with heat would be slick. I'm a big fan of ammo explosions.

But yeah, a 30 threshold would be shutdown city for players until they got used to it. I also think it's the one thing that we really need. In one of the "woes of MWO" posts (damned if I can remember which one) that is floating around, someone made a "what happened to that MW5 trailer" comment, specifically about the fact that the Atlas was so tough to kill. Two big things made that fight so nasty - hits were knocking mechs around and making aim difficult, and neither mech ever alpha'd. I think that by bringing in a stupidly low heat limit will have players spreading their fire. Shoot, you might even be able to get rid of double armor values.

Really, the big thing for me is that SHS should be viable. With rare exception, you really need to bring DHS to the match, which means that after saving up your millions in C-bills, you need to spend another 1.5 million. I'd rather see them more as another weight saving measure - you are trading crit slots for weight. Obviously, below 10 heat sinks (the engine sinks) DHS are kind of a free upgrade, but I think that taking some of the bigger energy mechs and saying "you can fill up with SHS and accomplish this, or use DHS and save weight, but lose space" rather than the (again with exception) "oh, I want to use energy weapons so I need DHS."

Edited by Buckminster, 02 June 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[Koniving]

On the knocking around... There's a crosshair thing already in MWO that while 100% pinpoint to where it points, hobbles and moves with the mech.

Imagine that in first person. Near the end with the Banshee, it is demonstrated that with skill and timing you can still manage repeated headshots on a stationary target while moving. But watch that crosshair.

In third person when hit with a really mean weapon, your entire torso jerks to one side. Firing during that time in third person will throw your aim off by 45 degrees or more! Imagine that in first person.

[PitchBlackYeti]

I like the idea of fixed heat cap, it would make it alot easier to calculate your alpha strike heat without any silly hidden mechanics. The heat dissipation speed would have to be tweaked hard though, to make energy weapons usable.

[Arkus Bethla]

I wish to pay money to play this interesting game you have proposed.