205 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

High skill module?

Um...no, in fact I'm pretty sure we agree it's stupid easy to use...And it's also stupid easy to avoid (well, avoiding dying from anyway).

What I'm suggesting is that for those that have problems avoiding them or hate seeing lots of people using them, they should have a hard counter module that completely negates strikes (or reduces damage within an certain radius).

That way, there would be a little diversity in the way strikes play out on the field instead of everyone automatically bringing them. You'd never know if someone was playing offense or defense with regard to strikes.

To my out of date knowledge... nothing like that exists!

[Xavier]

I have no problem with the current damage/radius/ragne of the current arty and air strikes. I have a problem with how often they can be dropped, and how many can be dropped. I think increasing the timer rate would make for much more fun gameplay.

OR A BETTER FIX COULD BE...

I think only the company and lance commanders should be able to drop arty and air strikes, this ability would make lancemates want to follow the orders/direction of their lance/company lead, and if/when they die the company lance lead would then want to be claimed by the next person which would ensure that teamwork would continue.

[Bhael Fire]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

To my out of date knowledge... nothing like that exists!

Exactly! That's why I suggest that they make something that is like that, rather than nerf strikes directly.


A little yin and yang goes a long way for balance and player options.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Indiandream, on 28 May 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

I was troll-dakka-ing some dudes on tourmaline and I got artied (and died from ammo explosion). Instead of crying about it I laughed. I really must have pissed those guys off for them to waste a whole strike on just me.

It's not really a waste when they cost peanuts, have unlimited range, and come with the potential of 1-shotting players. That was bad game design. In a competitive environment anything that gives a free edge becomes mandatory but the way it has been exploited has turned something that should be situational into a source of irritation for the causal environment because of the frequency which they are used, and how strikes are much more effective against certain builds making people feel they are being taken advantage of. That strife gets trolls wringing their fists together until all they play for is exploiting that one tactic to get a rise out of players due to a combination of boredom with the current game (thus creating their own meta of trolling players), and wanting to undermine the spirit of the game in order to damage PGI's reputation for whatever reason they're upset with PGI. Winning at any cost is just gravy to them when they do. This is how an otherwise innocent and fun aspect that adds flavor and strategy to the game such as module strikes gets perverted into something that requires negative adjustment.

After reading all the suggestions laid out here, offering a few of my own, and with appreciation Niko made a presence to let posters know PGI is listening, I'll cast my official vote to just increase the cool down and hope PGI tackles the head shot issue in the process.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Exactly! That's why I suggest that they make something that is like that, rather than nerf strikes directly.


A little yin and yang goes a long way for balance and player options.

Actually since this is a war game at heart, I mean NOTHING actually exists to counter Arty.Other than Counter battery. and how would we do that since the cannons are not even "ON" the map/planet. I'm not against it but we would have to be given a means to counter fire and that means taking arty to counter Arty which does get done. So there it is the counter measure to arty would need to be Arty.

[Wrathful-Khan]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

So there it is the counter measure to arty would need to be Arty.

Nookyular missell

[Joseph Mallan]

Indiandream, on 28 May 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Nookyular missell

Those get released to WoB in the 3070s!

[Ultimax]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

High skill module?

Um...no, in fact I'm pretty sure we agree it's stupid easy to use...And it's also stupid easy to avoid (well, avoiding dying from anyway).

Stupid easy to use is exactly the problem.
So is stupid easy to spam.

Stupid easy to avoid, if it were consistently that easy, you would not see top teams bringing 12+ copies of it. You can catch even good players, and the cost for using it is barely existent. Hence we see it used as much as it is.

There is a breakpoint where you can simply no longer just "avoid" it every single time.


I don't actually have a problem with the damage output.

I take issue with the ease of use, and the amount of uses any given team can bring.

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Actually since this is a war game at heart, I mean NOTHING actually exists to counter Arty.Other than Counter battery. and how would we do that since the cannons are not even "ON" the map/planet. I'm not against it but we would have to be given a means to counter fire and that means taking arty to counter Arty which does get done. So there it is the counter measure to arty would need to be Arty.

How realistic is this to actual arty though?

We are playing a wargame where I'm constantly told that "lostech" is the reason why our mechs have such awful night/heat vision in the year 3050 and why futuristic rail guns have an optimal range of 660m.


So the fact that you can simply look at a hill, press a button and have an Arty/Air strike drop exactly on that location doesn't seem to fit into this.


Aside from that, it's kind of silly to have 12 guys all calling up the Arty teams and demanding to get their Arty prioritized.



So the currently implementation isn't very realistic, nor does it have a valid opportunity cost per user, or for use en masse.


Part of me thinks that you should need to bring up your map, and select a coordinate. But that might be a bit punitive.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 May 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Stupid easy to use is exactly the problem.
So is stupid easy to spam.

Stupid easy to avoid, if it were consistently that easy, you would not see top teams bringing 12+ copies of it. You can catch even good players, and the cost for using it is barely existent. Hence we see it used as much as it is.

There is a breakpoint where you can simply no longer just "avoid" it every single time.


I don't actually have a problem with the damage output.

I take issue with the ease of use, and the amount of uses any given team can bring.







How realistic is this to actual arty though?

We are playing a wargame where I'm constantly told that "lostech" is the reason why our mechs have such awful night/heat vision in the year 3050 and why futuristic rail guns have an optimal range of 660m.


So the fact that you can simply look at a hill, press a button and have an Arty/Air strike drop exactly on that location doesn't seem to fit into this.


Aside from that, it's kind of silly to have 12 guys all calling up the Arty teams and demanding to get their Arty prioritized.



So the currently implementation isn't very realistic, nor does it have a valid opportunity cost per user, or for use en masse.

Arty is requested, A test round is fired.
Radio to adjust aim. A round is fired.
If on target "Fire for effect"
If not adjust target and test again.
If on target "Fire for effect"

One effect is satisfactory, Spotter calls for Cease Fire.

Is our Arty even close to that?

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Arty is requested, A test round is fired.
Radio to adjust aim. A round is fired.
If on target "Fire for effect"
If not adjust target and test again.
If on target "Fire for effect"

One effect is satisfactory, Spotter calls for Cease Fire.

Is our Arty even close to that?

It sounds like that Arty takes quite a bit more effort and time to coordinate on a location.

Since we are playing a video game where real time actions happen a lot faster than they do in "the real world" I'm OK with our arty being faster than you describe, but not nearly as quick and easy to call as simply looking at a location and clicking a button.


That's an ease of use issue, IMO.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

It sounds like that Arty takes quite a bit more effort and time to coordinate on a location.

Since we are playing a video game where real time actions happen a lot faster than they do in "the real world" I'm OK with our arty being faster than you describe, but not nearly as quick and easy to call as simply looking at a location and clicking a button.


That's an ease of use issue, IMO.

That is the Request portion. Click a radio and give a grid coordinate. It takes a few seconds only. Now the flight time is of interest to me cause as I hear its a constant. Arty is always X maps away. That seems lazy to me.

[Bhael Fire]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Actually since this is a war game at heart, I mean NOTHING actually exists to counter Arty.Other than Counter battery. and how would we do that since the cannons are not even "ON" the map/planet. I'm not against it but we would have to be given a means to counter fire and that means taking arty to counter Arty which does get done. So there it is the counter measure to arty would need to be Arty.

I was thinking purely from a game balance standpoint. Fluff is just there for immersion and suspension of disbelief...but at the end of the day balance trumps all in the world of game design.

If I were to implement a direct counter to artillery and air strikes, it would be in the form of an Anti-Battery Defense module that calls an orbital strike on the Artillery or Air Strike unit, either destroying it completely (and thus consuming the module) or having a permanent static reduction in damage against strikes.

But since these modules would be a direct counter in the same nature as a strike, I would opt for a consumable that completely negates the strike (perhaps even requiring the player to activate it when a strike is called anywhere on the field...giving them a 4-second window to press the button to counter it). This would make it an invaluable defense that could be used to not only protect the player but his team mates across the map.

While not necessary BT canon, it isn't outside of the realm of what BT is about.

[Bhael Fire]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

I take issue with the ease of use, and the amount of uses any given team can bring.

Which is why there should be a hard counter to it available to players, instead of nerfing the module directly.

See my Anti-Battery Defense module idea above.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I was thinking purely from a game balance standpoint. Fluff is just there for immersion and suspension of disbelief...but at the end of the day balance trumps all in the world of game design.

If I were to implement a direct counter to artillery and air strikes, it would be in the form of an Anti-Battery Defense module that calls an orbital strike on the Artillery or Air Strike unit, either destroying it completely (and thus consuming the module) or having a permanent static reduction in damage against strikes.

But since these modules would be a direct counter in the same nature as a strike, I would opt for a consumable that completely negates the strike (perhaps even requiring the player to activate it when a strike is called anywhere on the field...giving them a 4-second window to press the button to counter it). This would make it an invaluable defense that could be used to not only protect the player but his team mates across the map.

While not necessary BT canon, it isn't outside of the realm of what BT is about.

An orbital strike... on a in flight artillery shell? Cool... but can't buy it. To much has to be "In place" for that to work from round one!

203 MM arty shell


Now an Arrow 4... different story

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 May 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Bagheera]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

High skill module?

Um...no, in fact I'm pretty sure we agree it's stupid easy to use...And it's also stupid easy to avoid (well, avoiding dying from anyway).

What I'm suggesting is that for those that have problems avoiding them or hate seeing lots of people using them, they should have a hard counter module that completely negates strikes (or reduces damage within an certain radius).

That way, there would be a little diversity in the way strikes play out on the field instead of everyone automatically bringing them. You'd never know if someone was playing offense or defense with regard to strikes.

I have a better idea, and frankly have been saying this since they released strikes.

Require a command console to be installed on a mech in order to mount strike modules and deploy them in the field. Then you will basically never, ever have a team carting 12 of them at once. Their rarity will mean they can actually have power, like a strike should.

[Bacl]

They require balance like everything else.

Like i said before in multiple posts, Strikes should be rated on the same level as Jump jets and ECM. Too often a team wins because it has more ECM, JJ poptarts or strike than the other team. One day we will have a good match maker and it will take into acoount not only the tonnage of a mech but these 3 aspects too as advantages. Both teams will have 2 or 3 strikes each, same ammount of ECM's and same ammount of possible poptarts.

Lol my last game was a magistral ****, they had (mostly assault) 9 poptarts, i counted at least 11 strikes and 2 D-DC's and 1 raven 3L. Luckily i was in my jenner so yeah i was running around the caldera and thats gave me the chance to have a overall look of the game. I blame it on the matchmaker, 1 strike is annoying but its ok, 5 strike focused on a spot and you cant see the smoke at your feet or 1 meter behind you that is frustrating.

[Bhael Fire]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

An orbital strike... on a in flight artillery shell? Cool... but can't buy it. To much has to be "In place" for that to work from round one!

The strike is called on the artillery and aircraft unit itself, not the individual shells/bombs.

Basically the Anti-Battery Defense module detects the threat of an active enemy artillery unit or air craft in the area then warns the pilot, then they decide if they want to take out the unit from an orbital strike (within that 4-second window).

That's about as realistic as it needs to be, considering the balancing effect it would have on the game without directing nerfing the strike modules.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

The strike is called on the artillery and aircraft unit itself, not the individual shells/bombs.

Basically the Anti-Battery Defense module detects the threat of an active enemy artillery unit or air craft in the area then warns the pilot, then they decide if they want to take out the unit from an orbital strike (within that 4-second window).

That's about as realistic as it needs to be, considering the balancing effect it would have on the game without directing nerfing the strike modules.

We would need to know the enemy HAS arty to begin with and we would not know that till it has launched.

[Ultimax]

Bagheera, on 28 May 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

I have a better idea, and frankly have been saying this since they released strikes.

Require a command console to be installed on a mech in order to mount strike modules and deploy them in the field. Then you will basically never, ever have a team carting 12 of them at once. Their rarity will mean they can actually have power, like a strike should.

3 tons and completely locked out of use is probably unlikely.


However, a compromise would be:


1) Add some level of accuracy deviation on standard use (no command module) - perhaps 25% to 30%.
2) Command Console reduces that devation, allowing Arty/Air strike to be used as it is right now, with no penalty.
3) Command Console reduced to 1 or 1.5 tons, or also add some other benefit to justify it's 3 ton cost (which is extreme).

[Bagheera]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

3 tons and completely locked out of use is probably unlikely.

Why?

The CC does absolutely nothing in the game currently, and 12 strike matches are boooooooooooooring.

The whole point is to increase the opportunity cost of them.

Edited by Bagheera, 28 May 2014 - 08:16 AM.