205 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Strikes are fine... It the 7 - 10 split that really chaffs my arse.

[Mcgral18]

Ardney, on 27 May 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

No, warnings are not a cool idea. After ECM, "Warning Targeted" (thankfully reverted), and Wallha..er...Seismic Module, you'd think PGI would realize that removing the ability and/or necessity for players to respond to visual cues degrades the quality of the game.

If people are moaning about the frequency of strikes then start with the global cooldown. Can't remember off the top of my head if that cooldown starts when the strike is called or when it finishes, but it should be the latter and then if that is deemed too frequent increase in intervals of 10 seconds until it's in a good spot.

You drop smoke, the 10 second global cooldown starts. Shells fall 4 seconds after you press the button. Smoke can be dropped 6 seconds after shells start.

The 10 seconds is shared between both Arty+Air.

[Bhael Fire]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 27 May 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Game balance should be acheived by making numerous choices equally viable, not by one module countering another.

Exactly. Glad you see my way.

[Khobai]

Quote

Right now, no other module has the chance to significantly impact the outcome of a match by one-shot killing or crippling a 'mech with a lucky hit, so there is no choice. The only decision to make regarding modules, unless you're trying to earn C-Bills, is do I bring one or two strikes? and if only one, air or arty?

This. Whats the point of even having different modules? If all anyone takes is artillery? Its self-defeating.

Artillery needs to be equal to the other modules.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 27 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

On one hand, arty and air strikes are designed to provide temporary area of denial effect on the enemy. On the other hand, the raising concerns regarding whether or not they are OP warrant investigation. And indeed, calling in a danger close strike on oneself in a last ditch effort to hurt the enemy is a legitimate and darn cool tactic...

With such purposes and examples in mind though, the question is, what changes would you like to see to improve these systems rather than outright nerf or destroy them?

I've seen a neat one so far about more warning, are there other ways in particular that it disturbs gameplay or seems to make things unfair?

Hey Niko. I know you've already got a load of replies already but let me try to explain why I personally think the strikes are OP. As a victim of countless strikes, I've noticed that in particular most of the time at least, that the strike either appeared behind me, thus preventing me from seeing it, or I actually did see it, but despite my efforts I still took massive damage. What's particularly frustrating is that in anything that isn't a speedy medium or light mech, there is no guarantee you won't escape unscathed. This is especially true for assaults and some non poptart snipers. I recall a few times in my 76 kph catapult getting very nearly legged despite making good distance from the arty strike. The chance to be headshot is also pretty unfair, being instantly killed by a consumable, even if it is a small chance, will make anybody furious. Lastly I think it's range potential is kind of ludicrous, I mean, imagined a light from 1200 meters away dropping a strike from behind, it's kind of crazy, you know? I mean for somethign so powerful to have that sort of range and all.

With that said, I think the arty really needs a warning system accompanied by a mini map icon signifying where the enemy artillery strike is at, a increase to the global cool down 20-25 seconds wouldn't hurt either. If it's still considered op after that, making air strikes unable to be equipped along with arty strikes and adding an extra second until the strike impacts, should bring it inline with the other modules.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 27 May 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[Ursh]

If you have plenty of cbills, you can always reserve your arty/airstrikes to punish cowards on your team who refuse to come out of hiding to shoot at enemy mechs who are in the open.

[Demuder]

Arty and air strikes are fine as far damage and availability go, it's just that since the only warning the player gets is a smoke... behind them, and since there's no way in game for your buddies to warn you, there's only two ways to deal with them. You either become paranoid and look over your back constantly or you just decide to take the damage. Anyone talking about situational awareness simply doesn't know what situational awareness means. A whisp of smoke magically appearing behind your back simply does not register in anyone's situational awareness.

The fact that these modules target only assaults or heavies, since mediums and lights are more or less always on the move, makes the modules even more prone to trolling behavior. The only person I have seen to use strikes against lights is The B33f (check his youtubes) in an ingenious way no less.

The problem could be very easily solved if Betty simply announced to the enemy team "Air" or "Artillery strike detected" whenever such a module was used. That would give everyone time to register the smoke in their "situational awareness" and even avoid the strike.

[Fatal25]

I could not agree more. Airstrikes do not belong in this game. If I remember correctly they were in the original tabletop game, but no one ever used them. This game is about walking tanks using their skill to try and wipe out the other team. Using an airstrike goes totally against that by letting players buy their way to a victory. I have been hit with 4 airstrikes in one game killing my Atlas before taking a single direct fire hit. Pathetic. Take them out of the game.

[Karl Streiger]

What pisses me of regarding strikes is the randomness.
Got killed yesterday by 2x strikes - hardly any break between the incoming shells.
The first ripped open my BattleMasters side Torso (was right in the middle of that strike) - if those guys i did fight with had eyes in their skulls they would have seen that two or three shots of any weapon would have killed me - but intstead they did throw a second strike..... HEADSHOT....(no destruction of the side torso - no headshot) -> as said pure BS random.

In General i don't have a problem with strikes at all - its part of BattleTech but as usually the system is far far away from anything that i would think of a well thought immersive option.

OK Artilleriestrike is called -LONG Rang.... well with 5sec flight time - its obvious anything but not long range. Hell my AC 20 would need almost 3-4seconds to travell through even the smallest maps.
Even the LRMS need more time to travel 1000m.

So the flight time has to increased - hard.
Remove the smoke
If necessary add a "warning" incomming shells detected (RADAR you know is able to track incoming shells) - and add 8-10sec reaction time. (although you don't know - where the shells may drop)

-> add 3 Strike Options
Thumper - area denial barrage - minor damage - lots of shells, long time (good reaction time)
Sniper - > walking barrage -> 2 shots ...walk 2 shots - walk 2 shots - medicore damage (medium reaction time)
Long Tom - point targets - more damage - few shells only one strike (as currently) (slow reaction time)

[DeadlyNerd]

it costs 40k a strike. Average win income without bonuses is 130k. If people like wasting away 30% of their income, I don't want to be the one to stop them.
A lot of matches are won despite air/arti strikes. I'd hate to be the one that loses a match after using 80k worth of strikes.

[SgtKinCaiD]

Arty/airstrike damage is fine, the problem is the abuse of it.

[Onmyoudo]

DeadlyNerd, on 28 May 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

it costs 40k a strike. Average win income without bonuses is 130k. If people like wasting away 30% of their income, I don't want to be the one to stop them.
A lot of matches are won despite air/arti strikes. I'd hate to be the one that loses a match after using 80k worth of strikes.

While this is true and I never use strikes either in favour of making c-bills, many veteran players have millions upon millions of c-bills in stock and do not need more, and so are free to use these powerful modules while new players have a massive uphill grind to upgrade their second mech.

I guess this isn't a problem with the modules as such, but with the awful MWO economy.

[Karl Streiger]

Onmyoudo, on 28 May 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

I guess this isn't a problem with the modules as such, but with the awful MWO economy.

Well said - I'm everything but a new player - but i still share the same problems - all it did need to get in the same huddle as the newbs was some disappointment during the Open Beta - half a year without game - and so the time of "good" income was passed, when i made it back

[Sarlic]

I dont use any Airstrikes or artillery at all. Its all fallus to me. Nothing skillfull and pure for the damage

Edited by Sarlic, 28 May 2014 - 02:41 AM.

[SgtKinCaiD]

Onmyoudo, on 28 May 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

many veteran players have millions upon millions of c-bills in stock and do not need more

Hum ... the clan are coming ...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 27 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

On one hand, arty and air strikes are designed to provide temporary area of denial effect on the enemy. On the other hand, the raising concerns regarding whether or not they are OP warrant investigation. And indeed, calling in a danger close strike on oneself in a last ditch effort to hurt the enemy is a legitimate and darn cool tactic...

With such purposes and examples in mind though, the question is, what changes would you like to see to improve these systems rather than outright nerf or destroy them?

As mentioned earlier more shells fired for less damage each and canon BT Artillery can be used, I be okay with up to 25 damage per shell and even consider adding in more variety.

Brainstorming some stuff in spoiler

Spoiler

The most damage a single Artillery shell should do is 25 damage from a Long Tom, so I would have that be the max damage from a single shell and increase the number of shells fired and possibly provide more tiers and so on.

Current MWO Strikes fire six shells at 40 damage (240 damage total) then 10 shells (400 damage) when upgraded.

So with having different Artillery pieces firing different strikes, there could be more variety for strikes with the greater damage having a wider area of effect and different projectile velocities based on what's best for how they feel along with the potential for building up more game modes for Community Warefare. For example:

• Long Tom Strike -
  
  • Level 1: 05 shells - 25 damage each - 125 damage total
    
  • Level 2: 10 shells - 25 damage each - 250 damage total

• Sniper Strike -
  
  • Level 1: 10 shells - 20 damage each - 200 damage total
    
  • Level 2: 20 shells - 20 damage each - 400 damage total

• Thumper Strike - widest circular area
  
  • Level 1: 20 shells - 15 damage each - 300 damage total
    
  • Level 2: 40 shells - 15 damage each - 600 damage total

• Arrow IV Strike -
  
  • Level 1: 05 missiles - 20 damage each - 100 damage total
    
  • Level 2: 10 missiles - 20 damage each - 200 damage total

• Carpet Bomb Strike - basically like the current Air Strike
  
  • Level 1: 15 High-Explosive Bombs - 10 damage each - 150 damage total
    
  • Level 2: 20 High-Explosive Bombs - 10 damage each - 200 damage total

Quote

I've seen a neat one so far about more warning, are there other ways in particular that it disturbs gameplay or seems to make things unfair?

Catching players off guard, that's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes. And if individual shells can only do up to 25 damage each, then Strikes should remain potent, but not as potentially aggravating and/or OP I hope.

Then to add to current gameplay, I'd consider a lore friendly answer that can use TAG, the Battlemap and/or Command Console along with tweaks to the Pilot Lab and Consumables; so overall my idea would need dev time for certain elements.


So, I believe that TAG should be required because there is currently little risk in popping red smoke at extremely long ranges to the user, having TAG can set a distance to how far away a strike can be set.

Along with requiring TAG for strikes, I'd also give TAG it's own Equipment Slot like AMS and ECM, and then cut the range down back to 450 M. Could then choose what mechs can take TAG or have available to all. From this point you can have a certain selection of strikes available to use with TAG, along with helping as a Spotter for LRM mechs as TAG currently works.



Using the Battlemap I've been mulling over an idea of allowing sections of maps to be target-able for Artillery, if a Command Console is being used as a means to reduce strikes. Could also consider a restriction on the Battlemap to only those with the Command Console, the Battlemap itself is very useful.

So, this idea with the Battlemap and Command Console still needs more thought, but my thinking is giving dedicated Spotters a better role and providing more opportunities for teamwork within the game's framework, while having the Command Console be functional. Where firing TAG would, aside from painting a target for precise strikes (Like LRMS), also highlight a cone in front of the Spotter where Artillery strikes can be sent in by the Command Mech.

The Icon that could show on the Battlemap, for the target area, could be like this mock-up:

Spoiler

Therefore Spotters would still need to get locks on Targets, so that the Command Mech has information as to where a Strike could be placed on the map.

That also allows for situations, if the Command Mech(s) gets taken out, then no more strikes could be sent in that match, if it were to be setup that the Command Console is the only way to fire off a strike. Could even consider game modes around the idea, protecting the Artillery for a future battle, protect the Command mech and so on for CW.



Along with these considerations, the Pilot Lab can also be improved to help setup up Role Warfare and possibly limit the number of strikes we could take. I have a thread linked in my sig that goes into an idea for a modular design that could allow for Mech specialization.

There seems to be some synergy with improving the Artillery Situation and building up Role Warfare for CW with such a modular slot system, which is why I mention it, while also allowing players to further customize their mechs and hopefully helping to provide more variety and more complexity to MWO.


And thank you for taking the time to read my long winded stream of thought!




And in the spoiler, a section on TAG for any interested.

Spoiler

Here is an excerpt from a BT book that describes the Command Console

Spoiler

[Ultimax]

Bhael Fire, on 27 May 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

This is why the answer is to provide counter-modules for modules like Artillery Strike and Air Strike instead of nerfing them directly. If one feels the need to sacrifice a module slot and c-bills/MC for an offensive advantage, and if another player desires defense against that offense then they should both be able to take modules that virtually cancel each other out.

That's ridiculous.

I'm sorry that you think this entire thread is full of derps who just can't seem to get out of the way.

Here's a bit of reality, many of us have used Arty/Air strike and still feel it is too easy to use.

That's right, I'm not saying I can't get out of the way - I'm saying it's too easy to use for the effect it generates and that it is too easily spammed by multiple users.

The cost to the user is too low, with the only barrier being available SpaceBucks.



Trying to pretend that this is some high skill module isn't really fooling any of us, it is in fact a very low skill barrier large effect consumable.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 May 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[Sephlock]

Ursh, on 27 May 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

If you have plenty of cbills, you can always reserve your arty/airstrikes to punish cowards on your team who refuse to come out of hiding to shoot at enemy mechs who are in the open.

Maybe PGI could implement a special Commissar Badge ?

[Wrathful-Khan]

I was troll-dakka-ing some dudes on tourmaline and I got artied (and died from ammo explosion). Instead of crying about it I laughed. I really must have pissed those guys off for them to waste a whole strike on just me.

[Bhael Fire]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

Trying to pretend that this is some high skill module isn't really fooling any of us, it is in fact a very low skill barrier large effect consumable.

High skill module?

Um...no, in fact I'm pretty sure we agree it's stupid easy to use...And it's also stupid easy to avoid (well, avoiding dying from anyway).

What I'm suggesting is that for those that have problems avoiding them or hate seeing lots of people using them, they should have a hard counter module that completely negates strikes (or reduces damage within an certain radius).

That way, there would be a little diversity in the way strikes play out on the field instead of everyone automatically bringing them. You'd never know if someone was playing offense or defense with regard to strikes.