39 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

I see you are going to continue ignoring how ridiculous it is that a 55 ton mech in a long range config can outdps a 90 ton mech in a brawler config at less than 100 meters. If thats the case, i will just stop responding to you.

Yet again, that's false.

Tri-5 SHD has 9 DPS. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eb9a6f6012c5b08

Your SRM16+2LPL has 14.17 DPS. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bc808d72c28c445


Hurray for math!

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 May 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Yet again, that's false.

Tri-5 SHD has 9 DPS. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eb9a6f6012c5b08

Your SRM16+2LPL has 14.17 DPS. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bc808d72c28c445


Hurray for math!

Edited by FupDup, 27 May 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[DEMAX51]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

I see you are going to continue ignoring how ridiculous it is that a 55 ton mech in a long range config can outdps a 90 ton mech in a brawler config at less than 100 meters. If thats the case, i will just stop responding to you.

Really though, compared to other games, DPS means very little in MWO.

I'll take a pinpoint high-damage alpha over a higher DPS every single time in this game. Higher DPS might get you more total damage at the end of the match, but pinpoint damage will get you more effective damage, since you're able to put more damage on specific components (such as those that will result directly in a 'Mech being destroyed).

Edited by DEMAX51, 27 May 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Yet again, that's false.

Tri-5 SHD has 9 DPS. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eb9a6f6012c5b08

Your SRM16+2LPL has 14.17 DPS. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bc808d72c28c445


Hurray for math!

It has 9 DPS from 3x AC 5s that take up 24 tons before ammo.

On a 55 ton mech...

On top of that, in order to run 3x 5 ACs the SHD needs a STD engine.

Even if he shaved the hell out of his armor, it still doesn't leave much room for anything but a few tons of AC 5 ammo.


So this SHD was likely slow with low ammo count and relatively low armor.

[Triordinant]

DjPush, on 27 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

How do I beat these types of builds without making one myself?

These meta builds are infinitely more effective when used by a premade team that has trained together for weeks, if not months. While there are honorable premade teams that fight only other premade teams in private matches or 12-mans, there are also others that farm disorganized PUGs with meta builds for easy XPs and cbills and to pad their K/D ratio. Most premade teams are between these two extremes and play casually with whatever friends they have on hand and don't use meta builds. To avoid the "evil" premades farming PUGs, you may have to avoid playing on weekends or during US primetime, at least until PGI introduces a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside an unrestricted premade queue that PUGs can opt to join.

[Deathlike]

Sometimes I rage at the quality of the teammates, but that's indicative of Elo and how the MM loves to troll me.

In any case, ForumWarrior Online is far more enjoyable than the real game. I see so much stupidity in the game, it's no wonder people "feel" that the opfor/meta is OP, when they themselves are half of that equation.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Deadfire]

Triordinant, on 27 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

These meta builds are infinitely more effective when used by a premade team that has trained together for weeks, if not months. While there are honorable premade teams that fight only other premade teams in private matches or 12-mans, there are also others that farm disorganized PUGs with meta builds for easy XPs and cbills and to pad their K/D ratio. Most premade teams are between these two extremes and play casually with whatever friends they have on hand and don't use meta builds. To avoid the "evil" premades farming PUGs, you may have to avoid playing on weekends or during US primetime, at least until PGI introduces a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside an unrestricted premade queue that PUGs can opt to join.

Well at least this isn't painting competitve players with the same brush as real life murders like some other forum member said. However once again I find people saying that players enjoying the game a certain way are "evil"

Competetive Players play with 4 mans or solo FAR more then 12v12s. They enjoy the game the same as everyone else, they happen to also be very good at it. What you seem to refer to as "Meta Builds" really goes by a different name, which is "optimized". What this means, is that a player who runs a poptart ‘mech or any other mech that is "OP" is not really running "meta" (meta is a vast term by the way, but we just use it as slang now so it's all well). All they have done is taken a mech, analysed its mechanics and outfitted it to have the optimized damage and survivability for the meta(" Meta" in this context is refering to the metagame) or copying someone else that has.

What is the issue with running optimized builds? do you wish for players to simply not enjoy playing the game so that you can enjoy it more? Is your "fun" more important then theirs?

Why are you blaming the players for "exploiting" the game? Should you not be blaming the game it's self that allowed it?

The other thing that seems to get missed here is that in order to defeat the High ELO premade on the other team, means you need to put your pre-made on even footing. Because of course you don't know what they are playing with, it forces your premade to either to assume the worst and match the builds or play the odds. The other players inbetween because team work functions in PUG matches are poor can not be depended on, and thus aren't. This isn't farming the "weak" it's simply playing the game that is given to us and again to have fun in a game, is to play it in a way thats enjoyible, for most that's to see the victory text at the end of the match.

Edited by Deadfire, 27 May 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Hmm... I might goof around with a build like this in the future.

Stick with the Assaults, and dakka dakka the match away.

[DjPush]

Mizeur, on 27 May 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

What mechs and loadouts are you running? A balanced loadout means that at any given range, there is a loadout that can do more damage faster than you.

I thought "balanced" meant you can fight at any range effectively without suffering from overheating too quickly. Here are some examples of builds I have:

Jager A:
1 x AC10
2 x Med L
2 x SRM6
1 x LRM15

Hunchback 4SP:
2 x LLaser
2 x MLaser
2 x SRM4

Highlander 732:
1 x PPC
1 x AC10
2 x MLaser
2 x SRM6
1 x SRM 4

Atlas RS
1 x AC10
1 x PPC
1 x LPLaser
2 x MLaser
2 x SRM4

[poohead]

Deadfire, on 27 May 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

This isn't farming the "weak" it's simply playing the game that is given to us and again to have fun in a game, is to play it in a way thats enjoyible, for most that's to see the victory text at the end of the match.

I have to disagree here. A game is not enjoyable only if you win. If everything you do is all about winning, it's often less fun.

If I played with the same 'optimized' build every match, and everyone else did the same, what would be the point in mech design? All the fun in that would be gone. You would know the loadout to expect from every player, and their tactics.

That sounds boring to me, not fun at all.

[Triordinant]

Deadfire, on 27 May 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Well at least this isn't painting competitve players with the same brush as real life murders like some other forum member said. However once again I find people saying that players enjoying the game a certain way are "evil"

Competetive Players play with 4 mans or solo FAR more then 12v12s. They enjoy the game the same as everyone else, they happen to also be very good at it. What you seem to refer to as "Meta Builds" really goes by a different name, which is "optimized". What this means, is that a player who runs a poptart ‘mech or any other mech that is "OP" is not really running "meta" (meta is a vast term by the way, but we just use it as slang now so it's all well). All they have done is taken a mech, analysed its mechanics and outfitted it to have the optimized damage and survivability for the meta(" Meta" in this context is refering to the metagame) or copying someone else that has.

What is the issue with running optimized builds? do you wish for players to simply not enjoy playing the game so that you can enjoy it more? Is your "fun" more important then theirs?

Why are you blaming the players for "exploiting" the game? Should you not be blaming the game it's self that allowed it?

The other thing that seems to get missed here is that in order to defeat the High ELO premade on the other team, means you need to put your pre-made on even footing. Because of course you don't know what they are playing with, it forces your premade to either to assume the worst and match the builds or play the odds. The other players inbetween because team work functions in PUG matches are poor can not be depended on, and thus aren't. This isn't farming the "weak" it's simply playing the game that is given to us and again to have fun in a game, is to play it in a way thats enjoyible, for most that's to see the victory text at the end of the match.

Just to clarify: I have nothing against meta builds and sometimes use them myself. After all, optimizing your 'mech is one of the things that makes BatteTech fun. However, the OP doesn't use them and asked how to deal with them. I simply pointed out that meta builds are far deadlier when used en masse in a coordinated way by premades and that if he isn't going to fight fire with fire his best bet is to avoid premades as best he can.

Those "evil" premades are not evil because they use meta builds or play competitively -many "good" premades do that. They are "evil" because they actively avoid playing against other premades and try to sync-drop against all-PUG teams if they can (which is still possible until PGI implements the 1 premade per team rule along with the rule that balances a premade on one team with a premade on the other).

The absolute best scenario is a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside a premade queue that PUGs can opt into. The competitive premades will likely end up in the latter along with others who share their playstyle. The PUGs that join them will probably have the same playstyle as well. The casuals end up in the PUG queue and can play any way they want without getting farmed by "evil" premades. Everybody wins.

[Deathlike]

Triordinant, on 27 May 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

The absolute best scenario is a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside a premade queue that PUGs can opt into. The competitive premades will likely end up in the latter along with others who share their playstyle. The PUGs that join them will probably have the same playstyle as well. The casuals end up in the PUG queue and can play any way they want without getting farmed by "evil" premades. Everybody wins.

While I agree there should be a solo queue... it will get super-messy on tourney weekends.

Edit:
I think it had been suggested before that Tourney players would have their own queue. PGI has held multiple tournaments and as participation has changed... the lack of a special queue for the tourney players was never constructed.

/sigh

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Triordinant]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

While I agree there should be a solo queue... it will get super-messy on tourney weekends.

One wild weekend a month is tolerable. Meeting solo competitive players might even be a good experience for some PUGs. At least they won't be in coordinated groups that have trained together for months.

[Deadfire]

poohead, on 27 May 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

I have to disagree here. A game is not enjoyable only if you win. If everything you do is all about winning, it's often less fun.

If I played with the same 'optimized' build every match, and everyone else did the same, what would be the point in mech design? All the fun in that would be gone. You would know the loadout to expect from every player, and their tactics.

That sounds boring to me, not fun at all.

I do agree mate, however what some players define as "fun" can be different from player to player. Competitive players are not any different, Some truly just want to see the victory screen, others want the challenge of being the best at something (what "best" is, obviously varies to from player to player). A competitive mindset as well doesn't always make a good player, as well good players don't always make good competitive players.

Playing the same mech over and over is a loose point, as a player could be changing up his mechs, and unless you are watching their stream or stalking them it becomes a catch-all. However I do not disagree though, some players do play the same mech for so many reasons that aren't "evil"

For example, a Competitive player hasn't played in a couple nights and has a match-up tomorrow. Team's 12v12 practices normally don't last over a hour or 2 at most, as well they mostly don't allow a player much practice in the "chaos" aspect. That aspect is normally the hardest to train, and because of this more valued. However practices can't provide experience of every single possible thing that could happen, this is where PUG play comes in. PUG play is very random in most cases, and allows players to see things and train on things that could never happen in a 12v12,.Teams are also always looking for a edge, they may try something they saw in pug play, and players have to be ready for everything, and be able to quickly react.

Pug play helps competitive players become better pilots, just like it does all other players, is the point here.

Triordinant, on 27 May 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Those "evil" premades are not evil because they use meta builds or play competitively -many "good" premades do that. They are "evil" because they actively avoid playing against other premades and try to sync-drop against all-PUG teams if they can (which is still possible until PGI implements the 1 premade per team rule along with the rule that balances a premade on one team with a premade on the other).

The absolute best scenario is a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside a premade queue that PUGs can opt into. The competitive premades will likely end up in the latter along with others who share their playstyle. The PUGs that join them will probably have the same playstyle as well. The casuals end up in the PUG queue and can play any way they want without getting farmed by "evil" premades. Everybody wins.

See I don't get this " actively avoid playing against other premades" what do you mean? you are you saying competitive players have some control over the matchmaker? Do you have facts to back this up? I mean screenshots and other forms of media, all taken right after of each other that proves your point here? I know there was a MM bug that caused groups of 12s to drop into the pug games, but that has since been fixed. Just as well if the point was to drop into pure pug games do they disconnect if this doesn't happen? Matchmaker matches normally evenly ELO-wise so a team of equal skill level would normally be on different sides if a sync did happen. However it is to note that the matchmaker does not do this very well all the time, and normally when there are less players online in the higher ELO brackets. However if you are trying to say that "evil" pre-mades are "evil" for simply only playing at a certain time like I describe, I can't really take your point seriously

WIthout proof of such a thing being what you describe, as well if it does happen "all the time" then there would be tons of proof as well piling up that would be easily seen, found, and commonly known about.

What you are purposing does nothing for the player base as a whole and is quite hurtful. Pre-mades aren't always better then the people they are playing, competitive players you wish to remove from the PUG queue will play solo like they do now regardless. In addition you are making a system where it removes the challenge of playing people only at your level.

[Triordinant]

Deadfire, on 27 May 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

See I don't get this " actively avoid playing against other premades" what do you mean?

Actually, this was revealed on the Forums by a premade team. They explained how they could form 4-man premades using players with specific Elo ratings so that the matchmaker could reliably (but not always) drop them on the same team. I took their word for it because there was no logical reason for them (the premade team) to lie about it. Their forum post is probably in the Archives because it was made months ago.

If we don't get a premade-free, PUG-only queue before Community Warfare comes, it will get far worse. One of the problems with premades sync-dropping is sometimes they end up on opposite sides of a match. With Community Warfare, 4-man premades and sync-dropping solo players from the same clan will ALWAYS be on the same team because they will all be the same Faction. Once they are all on the same team, they can all switch to the same Teamspeak channel and become a "super premade" of 5, 6 or more players all on the same channel.

[Flaming oblivion]

Praetor Knight, on 27 May 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Hmm... I might goof around with a build like this in the future.

Stick with the Assaults, and dakka dakka the match away.

Gl keeping that LT you need it

[Grimmrog]

RAM, on 27 May 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

A video of a bad HGN build piloted poorly getting pwn'd by a good SHD build piloted well really does not prove anything.

Lol what? you mean running to an opp, holding LMB is "well" piloted? Hell I guess you cna even teahc this to a primate.

[Lykaon]

DjPush, on 27 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

This game is tough!! I have been trying to make my mechs so that they will work for all ranges. Layered combat like I have read so many times before. I would like to chip away at mechs from long range with a PPC or ER large and yet still be able to brawl with an LBX, ML or SRMs when I get closer. Most of my builds are pretty heat efficient and have a decent DPS. First couple of rounds when my nights start go ok, but 3 or 4 rounds in I start to notice that I cant even get close enough to the enemy. Im usually dead from PPC/AC or Gauss rifles. The trend continues and I end up just getting so frustrated that I quit.

How do I beat these types of builds without making one myself?

Without making one yourself you say?

Well...

Bottom line is ACs are more efficient heat to damage than any other weapon.Ac 5s even have fast firing and range as advantages.Essentially you are asking how do I compete with the best weapons without also using the best weapons.

Short answer is you don't.With all things equal the mech with the more efficient weapons payload will win.

Long answer is get more out of second rate weapons by playing better or,in essence commit to playing hard mode while everyone with AC/PPC jump snipers gets easy mode.

Think of it like this,Meta mechs are formula one racers and you are asking how to compete in formula one racing with a stock 1999 honda accord.

You can move the race into very tight turns and narrow short straight aways .force the meta mechs to fight in uncooperative terrain,Tightly clogged terrain that will allow you to close quickly while not being under fire like heavy urban or canyons.

Go run over the formula one pit crew! or play a different strategy from line up and kill.If the enemy is using meta mechs that are the best at killing do not play the shoot em up game.Cap bases/resources (needs team work) or at the very least do not allow the meta mechs to dictate where the fight is.(if they line up behind the boat on Forest Colony move deep inland and force the change in venue,attack them once they leave their comfort zone cover of choice.)

RAm those formula one cars with hoards of cheap slower lower performance cars,Get a premade team and use teamwork.

Think of it like this.

A deadbeat in a meta mech is about as useful as a decent player in junker.
A skilled player in a junker is as good as a decent meta mech pilot.
A skilled player in a meta mech is better than everything except several decent players in junkers in a premade.
An ACE in a meta mech is equal to 4 decent players in a premade piloting junkers.

Optimal situation is of course premade and meta builds with some skill at the helm and a plan.

Until (or if ever) we see this meta repaired and removed this will be the rules.

[Kmieciu]

Artgathan, on 27 May 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Only 2 LPL and 3 ASRM6 on a Highlander? Wow. I'm not sure that can actually be called an assault mech.

With 2 Large pulse lasers coupled with 3 ASRM6 it should be a monster at close range.

The fact that a long range build outperforms it at point blank range is mind-boggling!

I keep my fingers crossed hoping that Neema fixes them!

Edited by Kmieciu, 28 May 2014 - 01:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

cdlord, on 27 May 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Keep fighting the good fight and hopefully PGI will realize that MechWarrior isn't about meta.

Fighting is all about Meta. All you are saying is it is not right to use what is effective. And that is... just silly.
Canon Meta
Davion
Heavy Mech force armed with ACs
Kurita Meta
Medium heavy Mech force armed with PPCs
Steiner Meta
Heavy Assault Mechforce armed with ACs and Missiles
Marik Meta
Well rounded Mech force with ACs Lasers(Marik doesn't have much PPC production) and Missiles
Liao Meta
Medium Mech Force with no prominent weapon. Like using Minefields.