60 replies to this topic

[P e n u m b r a]

Cant Large lasers ghost heat at 3 instead of 2? Just feel it would be bring more viable builds to meds.

Edited by L e 0, 26 May 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Diablobo]

To up the large lasers would cause the rest of the fanboys to whine about their favorite weapon not being raised. PGI would also be sort of admitting that ghost heat is a horrible idea. Not gonna happen.

[Khobai]

How bout no ghost heat at all instead? We dont want ghost heat. We want the underlying problems fixed (i.e. pinpoint damage).

[Deathlike]

Diablobo, on 26 May 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

To up the large lasers would cause the rest of the fanboys to whine about their favorite weapon not being raised. PGI would also be sort of admitting that ghost heat is a horrible idea. Not gonna happen.

We can't have nice things.

To put in perspective based on ghost heat caps...

2 PPCs = 20 pt instant pinpoint damage
6 med lasers = 30 pt streaming damage
2 large lasers = 18 pt streaming damage

Does this compute? PGI logic.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Vweegit]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

We can't have nice things.

To put in perspective based on ghost heat caps...

2 PPCs = 20 pt instant pinpoint damage
6 med lasers = 30 pt streaming damage
2 large lasers = 18 pt streaming damage

Does this compute? PGI logic.

It computes a bit more closely when you consider the ranges of the weapons involved, too.



That said, Ghost Heat is a terrible idea, and should be burned at the stake.

[Deathlike]

Vweegit, on 26 May 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

It computes a bit more closely when you consider the ranges of the weapons involved, too.

Yes and yet no.

Sure, medium lasers have limited range, but you have to consider that they are ALWAYS bread and butter in most solid builds (even missile boats). You don't really compare the med laser to the Large Laser BECAUSE of the range, tonnage/crit requirements, and damage dealt.

Here's something to think about..

2 PPCs
14 tons
6 crits
20 pts of instant pinpoint damage
20 pts of heat

2 Large Lasers
10 tons
4 crits
18 pts of streaming damage
14 pts of heat

Outside of the obvious, if you had to choose between 2 LL and 2 PPCs to kill the opfor (assuming you both have the same mechs), are you going to go to "try" and snipe them with 2 LL and "try" to get in 90m?

Here's some numbers to ponder:

3 Large Lasers
15 tons
6 crits
27 pts of streaming damage
21 pts of heat

Hmm... doesn't it resemble the 2 PPC loadout? I guess 3 LL > 2 PPCs?

Must be some other game I'm playing for 3 LL to be "OP" over 2 PPC.

Quote

That said, Ghost Heat is a terrible idea, and Paul should be burned at the stake.

Fixed.

[TercieI]

Congratulations! You're the one millionth person to be bothered by this! :/

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Ghost heat can go away once PGI reworks a few other systems (to begin with, PPC damage arcing, dynamic precision reduction, etc.). Until then, bumping up the LL or making the LPL count as a separate system would both be welcome changes to the current mechanics.

[Waelsleaht]

Khobai, on 26 May 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

How bout no ghost heat at all instead? We dont want ghost heat. We want the underlying problems fixed (i.e. pinpoint damage).

you want pinpoint damage fixed? ok lets change it from a sim to a dice game. Problem solved only way you can solve it without making this game even more out of touch with the technology the game has. lets be honest even torso mounted weapons can be slightly adjusted to converge at the technology level they have in game. especially lasers. since they are a beam of focused light. slight change on focus point means converging beams.

If they did implement weapons only converging from arms and torso weapons were fixed straight ahead and never merged it wouldn't change the meta because a lot of mechs mount said meta weapons on each arm then one in torso. guess what the arms can converge with the torso one that cannot. hmm problem not solved is it?

[FupDup]

The heat limit for Large Lasers, and all other weaponry, should be increased to 999.

[Felio]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

We can't have nice things.

To put in perspective based on ghost heat caps...

2 PPCs = 20 pt instant pinpoint damage
6 med lasers = 30 pt streaming damage
2 large lasers = 18 pt streaming damage

Does this compute? PGI logic.

I think the number of hardpoints required to reach that damage is a factor they considered.

Also the fact that it is pretty easy to chain fire large lasers or fire two, then one for full damage. Chain firing more than six medium lasers takes quite a bit longer.

No, they should not increase the LL cap. They should, however, add one for dual guass. 30 pinpoint damage using only two hardpoints absoutely falls within the scope of what they applied ghost heat to.

[hercules1981]

Terciel1976, on 26 May 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Congratulations! You're the one millionth person to be bothered by this! :/

Haaaaaaaa ha ha ha there is no way one million people even play this game

[Deathlike]

Felio, on 26 May 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

I think the number of hardpoints required to reach that damage is a factor they considered.

So 2 PPCs across the board it is...

Quote

Also the fact that it is pretty easy to chain fire large lasers or fire two, then one for full damage. Chain firing more than six medium lasers takes quite a bit longer.

Chainfiring lasers is generally a BAD idea (if anything, it's pretty much an underhive-suggestion). The more time you expose yourself to the opponent, your TTK is shortened. That's why even "hit and fade" attacks for snipers/brawlers is a novel idea, as the heat generated will overwhelm you and not allow you to fire further until you cool down... overheating in mid-combat is your own undoing.

Quote

No, they should not increase the LL cap. They should, however, add one for dual guass. 30 pinpoint damage using only two hardpoints absoutely falls within the scope of what they applied ghost heat to.

I'm pretty sure that's what the charge mechanic is for... because giving it ghost heat like the AC20 makes zero sense.

[Felio]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Chainfiring lasers is generally a BAD idea (if anything, it's pretty much an underhive-suggestion). The more time you expose yourself to the opponent, your TTK is shortened.

You are making my point. Large lasers deal more damage in a shorter amount of time, so they have a lower ghost heat cap.

The gauss charge mechanic came before ghost heat. It was added because 15 instant pinpoint damage from virtually any range was overpowered.

As for your other comments, I don't know what you're trying to say or why.

[Jolly Llama]

Ghost heat is a knee jerk response to boating. It only makes sense to put as many of the same weapon type on a mech as you can. PGI limited that because of the multi-PPC builds back in the day. This, of course, led to the great PPC/Gauss builds. Again, nerf, and that led to the the current PPC/AC builds that they are constantly trying to break with speed tweaks to the AC rounds. All of it is a fools errand. Add better ballistic trajectories to reduce pinpointing, fix hit detection for SRMs, and allow multiple energy weapons without penalty. Sure, the multi-PPC builds will come back, but they were not all that effective to begin with. The higher heat and minimum range of the current PPC will give them only a short window to fire before they overheat or get overrun.

[Eddrick]

Getting rid of Ghost Heat all together would be prefered. But, allowing penalty free 3 Large Laser fire would be better then nothing.

[Deathlike]

Felio, on 26 May 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

You are making my point. Large lasers deal more damage in a shorter amount of time, so they have a lower ghost heat cap.

No... what I said was that if YOU are the one running chain Large Lasers, your TTK (Time To Kill aka your mech's life expectancy) is lowered because EVERYONE that knows you're there with PPCs will target and destroy you BECAUSE you have to keep your focus on your target for a longer duration than the PPC that needs to be shot once and gotten back into cover immediately.

The biggest mistake even the classic 2 ERL Raven/Cicada makes is that it exposes itself too long for someone to get a beat on it. It only gets worse if you try to chain fire 3 ERL on a Cicada build.

Quote

The gauss charge mechanic came before ghost heat. It was added because 15 instant pinpoint damage from virtually any range was overpowered.

I'm actually trying to remember if that was the case, but regardless ghost heat is NOT applied to Gauss Rifles. It would be senseless otherwise.

Quote

As for your other comments, I don't know what you're trying to say or why.

I think there's a reading problem here.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2014 - 04:37 PM.

[xeromynd]

I would at least like to be able to fire 2 ERLLs and one LPL without ghost heat

[Drunk Canuck]

Diablobo, on 26 May 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

To up the large lasers would cause the rest of the fanboys to whine about their favorite weapon not being raised. PGI would also be sort of admitting that ghost heat is a horrible idea. Not gonna happen.

It is a horrible idea and needs to burn in the 7th layer of Hell, much like Paul's career as a game designer should.

[SirLANsalot]

L e 0, on 26 May 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Cant Large lasers ghost heat at 3 instead of 2? Just feel it would be bring more viable builds to meds.

Just use 3 LL then?


Ghost heat is not this evil system that everyone fears. Hell a few of my "go to" mechs are under ghost heat, yet it doesn't effect them much.

3 LL (alpha) is the cost of 3 LL in heat (21) + 3 more heat (an SRM4), with the duration it actually comes out about even due to your heatsinks being able to lessen the "blow" from the heat.
3LPL is a little harder to handle (and is recommended for high skill people only). On hot maps like Terra Therma, its a bit warm to handle, on normal maps and cold ones its fine.





case in point. Use Smerfy to look at each weapons heat scale. Weapons like the AC2 the penalty really doesn't start to kick in until you have 5+ and even then its not a major issue till 7. (what i am referring to is where ghost heat starts making you pay, in heat, the cost of another of the same weapon).

Edited by SirLANsalot, 26 May 2014 - 04:58 PM.