16 replies to this topic

[Creovex]

Anyway we can get a Medium mech max tonnage queue for pugs? I only ask because myself included would love to bust out some lower tonnage 12v12 s and start bringing back some diversity to the battlefield with some fast pace games. Thoughts?

[Gigastrike]

Maybe have a queue for each class, like Solaris?

[Flaming oblivion]

Gigastrike, on 27 May 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Maybe have a queue for each class, like Solaris?

Might work except instead of the fights being badly balanced due to one side getting all the heavies and assaults, instead one side would get all the victors /phracts/jaggers/shadow hawks etc etc, ELO / weight class /weapon balance aren't the only problems with the MM, The actually balance between mechs in weight classes is just as broke as everything else.

[Gigastrike]

Flaming oblivion, on 27 May 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Might work except instead of the fights being badly balanced due to one side getting all the heavies and assaults, instead one side would get all the victors /phracts/jaggers/shadow hawks etc etc, ELO / weight class /weapon balance aren't the only problems with the MM, The actually balance between mechs in weight classes is just as broke as everything else.

Oh, I thought we were talking about games that only had specific weight classes.

[Creovex]

Flaming oblivion, on 27 May 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Might work except instead of the fights being badly balanced due to one side getting all the heavies and assaults, instead one side would get all the victors /phracts/jaggers/shadow hawks etc etc, ELO / weight class /weapon balance aren't the only problems with the MM, The actually balance between mechs in weight classes is just as broke as everything else.

I see Team ProTroll changed his faction to Steiner from Davion.

The concept is simple and easy enough to understand. Players who complain more then they play such as Flame here will complain about any idea.

Edited by Creovex, 27 May 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[Foxfire]

Still don't see what was wrong with the original 1 to 1 matching of weight classes that was used for so long in the game. Light v Light, Medium v Medium, Heavy v Heavy, Assault v Assault.. this way you prevented massive weight disparages.

[Goose]

I believe it's call "Conquest" …

[Deathlike]

Foxfire, on 27 May 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Still don't see what was wrong with the original 1 to 1 matching of weight classes that was used for so long in the game. Light v Light, Medium v Medium, Heavy v Heavy, Assault v Assault.. this way you prevented massive weight disparages.

Awesome vs Choice of Assault
Locust vs Choice of Light
Dragon vs Choice of Heavy
Shadowhawk vs Choice of Medium

Just think about it for a moment and you'll see the error in logic.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[Foxfire]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Awesome vs Choice of Assault
Locust vs Choice of Light
Dragon vs Choice of Heavy
Shadowhawk vs Choice of Medium

Just think about it for a moment and you'll see the error in logic.

Much better than Locust vs random Assault.. which is essentially what you have now.

[IraqiWalker]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Awesome vs Choice of Assault
Locust vs Choice of Light
Dragon vs Choice of Heavy
Shadowhawk vs Choice of Medium

Just think about it for a moment and you'll see the error in logic.

I'm sorry, but that is no excuse. None of those mechs you listed are bad/OP in their own right. Don't blame the mech instead of the bad pilots that don't know how to use them.

I preferred the old matching system to this new one. It's also why I am in favor of 3/3/3/3, even though I want proper tonnage restrictions (we won't see those until dropship mode is here, boy that day will be glorious).


EDIT: To give proper context,

My Locust 3M regularly breaks 500+ damage. My Locust 1V is one of my best killers (not really high damage numbers, but above average K/D)

I'll pick a HBK-4SP, or 4P over a shadowhawk in close range combat, and moving fights.

I'll pick a dragon over a Jagermech in maps like Tourmaline Desert, and Alpine peaks, because the Dragon is simply better in those settings.

I'll pick an awesome in those same maps over victors and Highlanders (except for the 733)

Basically, not one mech is bad, if the player piloting it, knows HOW to pilot it.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 27 May 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Flaming oblivion, on 27 May 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Might work except instead of the fights being badly balanced due to one side getting all the heavies and assaults, instead one side would get all the victors /phracts/jaggers/shadow hawks etc etc, ELO / weight class /weapon balance aren't the only problems with the MM, The actually balance between mechs in weight classes is just as broke as everything else.

yeah, it would be cool if MM was a bit less random in the mechs it picks......

my team...Orion, victor, locust, locust, raven, commando, fire starter, hunchback...
enemy team....Atlas, Atlas, Cataphract, Stalker, orion, victor, banshee...yeah....its lame.

[Lykaon]

Creovex, on 27 May 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

I see Team ProTroll changed his faction to Steiner from Davion.

The concept is simple and easy enough to understand. Players who complain more then they play such as Flame here will complain about any idea.

There is a valid point to his concern.

There are a few chassis that play into the meta and much more that don't.

And the sad and simple truth is skill being equal (proper Elo in MM) then the game mechanics have a stronger influence on the outcome.

And MWo has a severe disparity in mechanics. Weapons that front load damage are superior to weapons that don't.

Mechs that allow meta builds are superior to ones that do not.

So if Elo is working and match making is balanced for skill the team with the most meta humping builds is an obvious favorite.

[Lykaon]

IraqiWalker, on 27 May 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but that is no excuse. None of those mechs you listed are bad/OP in their own right. Don't blame the mech instead of the bad pilots that don't know how to use them.

I preferred the old matching system to this new one. It's also why I am in favor of 3/3/3/3, even though I want proper tonnage restrictions (we won't see those until dropship mode is here, boy that day will be glorious).


EDIT: To give proper context,

My Locust 3M regularly breaks 500+ damage. My Locust 1V is one of my best killers (not really high damage numbers, but above average K/D)

I'll pick a HBK-4SP, or 4P over a shadowhawk in close range combat, and moving fights.

I'll pick a dragon over a Jagermech in maps like Tourmaline Desert, and Alpine peaks, because the Dragon is simply better in those settings.

I'll pick an awesome in those same maps over victors and Highlanders (except for the 733)

Basically, not one mech is bad, if the player piloting it, knows HOW to pilot it.

Um...some mechs are bad when you consider how much favorable game mechanics effect a battle's outcome.

I would never take an Awesome as a direct fire platform over a Victor.The Victor is superior in that role and that is just the reality of the situation.Jump jets open up poptarting and FLD alpha spam.The Awesome meanwhile has a broad torso and a low slung arm and low hardpoints for PPCs thus it lacks the capacity to maximize cover because it has no jets to use to clear the weapons to fire over cover.

Locust? well locust meet my Oxide with 4x SSRM2s and 300XL engine your locust has no defense against this it's bringing a muffin to a nuke fight.You may be able to put up high numbers in a fight with a locust (I do it) but it's mostly because you are so far down the priority list the enemy allows you to put up decent numbers.Nearly any other light mech would be preferable.
No ECM to boot.

I love seeing Hunchback 4Ps an inefficient energy boat with most of it's fire power in one spot.Easy pickins.The 4P is an energy boat and as such inferior to an ac build in nearly every imaginable way.Best case is a twin large laser brawl support platform,at least it won't shut down while applying sloppy dispersed damage with lasers. The 4 SP? well a better choice I use one myself but rarely the SRM hit detection is more handicap than firepower.

A dragon? why? broad torso most use XL engines poor hardpoint placement and availability.I wouldn't compare a Dragon with a Jager as a choice to make I would go Cataphract 2D over any dragon on any map.I wish the dragon was better I piloted one for a very long time but had to admit it's a lemon.

Not one mech is bad it's like most of the mechs are bad except...

ECM carriers
Jenners
Firestarters

ECM cicada
Shadow hawks

Jagermechs
Cataphracts

ECM DDC
Highlanders
Victors

Knowing how to pilot is mainly knowing what meta build to pilot and this is truth.

You can say you personally can perform well with a non meta mech (I know players can I do it) but be honest what would you have done with Skill + meta over skill+ second class mech.

[Joseph Mallan]

Creovex, on 27 May 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Anyway we can get a Medium mech max tonnage queue for pugs? I only ask because myself included would love to bust out some lower tonnage 12v12 s and start bringing back some diversity to the battlefield with some fast pace games. Thoughts?

This was totally unexpected.

[IraqiWalker]

Lykaon, on 28 May 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Um...some mechs are bad when you consider how much favorable game mechanics effect a battle's outcome.

I would never take an Awesome as a direct fire platform over a Victor.The Victor is superior in that role and that is just the reality of the situation.Jump jets open up poptarting and FLD alpha spam.The Awesome meanwhile has a broad torso and a low slung arm and low hardpoints for PPCs thus it lacks the capacity to maximize cover because it has no jets to use to clear the weapons to fire over cover.

Locust? well locust meet my Oxide with 4x SSRM2s and 300XL engine your locust has no defense against this it's bringing a muffin to a nuke fight.You may be able to put up high numbers in a fight with a locust (I do it) but it's mostly because you are so far down the priority list the enemy allows you to put up decent numbers.Nearly any other light mech would be preferable.
No ECM to boot.

I love seeing Hunchback 4Ps an inefficient energy boat with most of it's fire power in one spot.Easy pickins.The 4P is an energy boat and as such inferior to an ac build in nearly every imaginable way.Best case is a twin large laser brawl support platform,at least it won't shut down while applying sloppy dispersed damage with lasers. The 4 SP? well a better choice I use one myself but rarely the SRM hit detection is more handicap than firepower.

A dragon? why? broad torso most use XL engines poor hardpoint placement and availability.I wouldn't compare a Dragon with a Jager as a choice to make I would go Cataphract 2D over any dragon on any map.I wish the dragon was better I piloted one for a very long time but had to admit it's a lemon.

Not one mech is bad it's like most of the mechs are bad except...

ECM carriers
Jenners
Firestarters

ECM cicada
Shadow hawks

Jagermechs
Cataphracts

ECM DDC
Highlanders
Victors

Knowing how to pilot is mainly knowing what meta build to pilot and this is truth.

You can say you personally can perform well with a non meta mech (I know players can I do it) but be honest what would you have done with Skill + meta over skill+ second class mech.

You proved my point instead of disproved it. Yes, the Victor is a better direct fire support mech than the awesome. That's why you don't put the Awesome in that role. Yes, the Oxide is a better light hunter than the locust, that's why you put the oxide there.

Honestly what you said just means don't fight meta mechs where they are strong. Which is what i'm saying. I'll always pick a dragon as a flanker because none of the other heavies will be moving as fast as it can, and it will be able to disrupt the enemy team better than jagermech ever will.

Learn the role your mech can do, and do that. Again, the mech isn't bad. The pilot is.

[Bobzilla]

But lights and mediums can't fit 2xac5+2xppc, how can you have matches like that.


All kidding aside, current meta is the problem, change the meta and the mechs being used will change. Which may just create a different meta.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 27 May 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but that is no excuse. None of those mechs you listed are bad/OP in their own right. Don't blame the mech instead of the bad pilots that don't know how to use them.

Learning how to use a lot of the bad mechs IS NOT THAT HARD. The problem is that for a competent pilot to produce the same results compared to an equivalent/optimal mech of the same weight or weight class... it requires A LOT MORE EFFORT. Some people are willing to go that extra route, but on the other hand when you have to cover up major weaknesses in certain mechs (like the Awesome being too easy to hit, even moreso than an Atlas), that's a problem.

It doesn't take much for a Jenner or whatever light of choice to take down a Locust, ASSUMING both pilots are of equal skill. ALL COMPARISONS make the assumption that a pilot is better off in X mech vs Y mech BECAUSE if their skills translate in mech Y, they are often times better in mech X.

Quote

I preferred the old matching system to this new one. It's also why I am in favor of 3/3/3/3, even though I want proper tonnage restrictions (we won't see those until dropship mode is here, boy that day will be glorious).

No... that'll make killing opponents easier IMO. Instead of more bulk (which is somewhat enough, because they are just slower targets to hit), there's just a lot less of it.

Quote

EDIT: To give proper context,

My Locust 3M regularly breaks 500+ damage. My Locust 1V is one of my best killers (not really high damage numbers, but above average K/D)

I'll pick a HBK-4SP, or 4P over a shadowhawk in close range combat, and moving fights.

I'll pick a dragon over a Jagermech in maps like Tourmaline Desert, and Alpine peaks, because the Dragon is simply better in those settings.

I'll pick an awesome in those same maps over victors and Highlanders (except for the 733)

Basically, not one mech is bad, if the player piloting it, knows HOW to pilot it.

There are bad mechs (Spider-5V anyone?). You can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop. It's that simple.

When the Quickdraw hero AND the Trebuchet hero debuted, I saw them fielded. Then, a week passes after their debut, and they are nowhere to be found. Perhaps it is the Elo bracket I'm in that I'm not seeing them as much, but bad mechs simply don't get fielded often.

I ran a Trebuchet-5N... arguably the worst 50 tonner variant in its weight class. If I switched to a Griffin-3M, I can do more or less the same stuff, and then some AND be a lot more effective as a LRM boat.

Certain mechs are a handicap, so rather than continuing on... there is a reason why certain mechs are better than others BY DESIGN. They don't even have to be meta... they are simply "the mech of choice" because the designs prove them out.

IraqiWalker, on 28 May 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

You proved my point instead of disproved it. Yes, the Victor is a better direct fire support mech than the awesome. That's why you don't put the Awesome in that role. Yes, the Oxide is a better light hunter than the locust, that's why you put the oxide there.

Honestly what you said just means don't fight meta mechs where they are strong. Which is what i'm saying. I'll always pick a dragon as a flanker because none of the other heavies will be moving as fast as it can, and it will be able to disrupt the enemy team better than jagermech ever will.

Learn the role your mech can do, and do that. Again, the mech isn't bad. The pilot is.

There's a reason why Dragons are not regularly fielded in 12-mans. Even a Quickdraw with its own issues is better (not by much though). A large CT is very much a hindrance when people know you're there.

As much as I think the Dragon is a good striker, their flaws (large CT hitboxes) give them liabilities that other mechs don't have. I'd rather have a Shadowhawk there instead, because they can do the same stuff and take hits better. Even then.. there are better options available.

Yes, some mechs have different roles, but there are often better mechs that fit the same role. A Stalker could pretty much do the same things the Awesome does (I think the Awesome could brawl better, but that's not by much). Just because they have roles based on designs, doesn't mean something else is better. That's just the way things are. It's fine to like a mech that isn't popular or strong in the meta (I like Quickdraws, despite their terrible scaling). It's bad to not recognize that these mechs have flaws in them. That's the point.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 May 2014 - 06:00 AM.