105 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

There are plenty of BT and MW fans that are themselves programmers or software engineers.

Which brings me to the next point. I don't adhere to the narrative that if PGI didn't come along or if PGI has to give up MW eventually years from now that MW itself would just disappear, because there is an old aging fanbase with experience, and ex-MW devs out their in the gaming industry. And the real Kick Starter is a popular way to jump-start once niche game genres (Example is Brian Fargo's Wasteland 2).

And now there is no competition for a MVP MW game to keep PGI on their toes. I can no longer download MW4 legitimately, and MW:LL basically agreed to stop so MWO would have NO competition. Even the MekTek team that kept MW4 alive for years and added stuff for free wanted to do something with the franchise, but now they can't.

Microsoft took one look at this developer's resume and said yes ONLY because it is a MVP, so they did not have to worry about any enormous losses. They could absolve themselves and wash their hands, and pat themselves on the back, even if it possibly meant a detriment to fans.

And now we have a game where the developers or at their sister company IGP insisted on being developed around a payment model for a niche game with a small player following compared to what they "dreamed" it would be (i.e., WoT). This game is notorious, like some other terrible F2P models, actually hinders you so you limp through the game at every turn if you ain't a "meta-lord," from its weird balancing see-saw, forced upgrades to stay competitive, excruciating grind ("hey, pay us some money, we'll make it a LITTLE less excruciating, what'daya say?"), no stock mode for new/old players, and many other things.

Quote

The worst aspect to f2p design is the desire for players to play for as long as possible. We call this “retention” in the business. Retention doesn’t want you to enjoy the game – it wants you to be addicted to it. It wants you to play it compulsively.

A bit of retention is a good thing. I don’t want to sell you a game which you only enjoy for ten minutes. But when you start prioritizing volume of player time over quality of player time, then you start asking yourself all sorts of bad questions: is this section too fun? Could we make this last longer with the same content? You start diluting, basically.

More fundamentally, at every point in an f2p game you’d like to say to the player: you are having some fun now. If you pay us some money, you can have more fun ["Buy a Dragon Slayer for your Meta Needs, what'daya say?"]. How is that a good thing to design around? When I’m designing my old-fashioned pay-once game, I’m saying: I’d like you to have the most fun, all of the time.

Yeah, at its base, the shooting a laser at a Mech stuff is fun in the game, but the stuff holding mechanics together is a thin thread, and the box built around it is filled with holes, topped off with an game pay model that aggravates older players like myself. If it succeeds, great, I don't want it to crash and burn - its just a game and I have other games. If I have to wait 4 years for a Stock Mode great, something to look forward to, because I'm a rarity in that I don't care about CW with Meta Mechs.

Edited by General Taskeen, 27 May 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

RedDragon, on 27 May 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

What I don't understand: Why didn't they just do the Kickstarter and produce the game as advertised in the trailer? The money would have been the same, they could even have included much higher tiers and we would have paid for it. So why do we have to live with this awkward F2P-model now?

Because year 2011 was not that good for games in Kickstarter. Probably PGI was not willing to take the chance, because statistics were discouraging. The breakthru for games in kickstarter was in 2012 when the path for MWO was already decided.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Oh don't you She Squawks even try to get started. Get your team into a Drug Dependency program, and win about 4 more of them rings (buy Richard SHerman a muzzle), then come back and started squawkin!

Love Richard Sherman

[Jun Watarase]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 27 May 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

I've actually seen several community-suggested changes come through, though there tends to be a six-month lag or thereabouts.

AC dps regularization, for instance, was floating around on the forums before last Christmas (though IIRC the AC2's dps was suggested to be around 2.0 instead of 3.0, but that assumed it'd retain its huge range advantage).

SSRM bone tracking being changed from joints (nonsensical; I have no idea why PGI ever thought to do it that way) to center-mass for the bone was a much more quickly adopted change.

NARCs giving LoS-free targets was a huge buff that was suggested by the forums.

BAP as a counter to ECM was a forum suggestion, IIRC, though more of a temporary measure pending a rework of the entire ECM system (the latter naturally hasn't happened yet).

Burst-fire UACs and LBX ACs with slug alternate munitions have been requested by the forums many times, and it looks like the Clans will be test-driving those changes.

There are a few others that were at least floating around the forums well before PGI did anything with them, but the above are the big ones that I can remember easily.

Causation doesnt necessarily mean correlation though. For example, it wouldnt be unlikely for those changes to be in because someone at PGI suggested it. PGI may not even have read any of those suggestions on the forums. At the same time many inexplicable changes are put into the game that people on the forums never suggested or requested (VTR brawler nerf for example, when everyone was screaming for the poptart meta to be fixed). Stuff like that suggests PGI does whatever they want without considering player feedback.

[Artgathan]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Causation doesnt necessarily mean correlation though.

You've got that backwards. Causation means there is a correlation. The opposite is not true.

[Bishop Steiner]

CtrlAltWheee, on 27 May 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

Love Richard Sherman

Guy writes good articles (usually), respect his Stanford pedigree, and plays real well (not many could have stretched to finger that ball away from Crab, I give the props to Sherman on the play, and the blame to Roman for calling it, not Kap and Crab who were what...1 inch from the Super Bowl? Good play, earned win on a great game).

But he has ZERO class pretty much any time he open his mouth.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Guy writes good articles (usually), respect his Stanford pedigree, and plays real well (not many could have stretched to finger that ball away from Crab, I give the props to Sherman on the play, and the blame to Roman for calling it, not Kap and Crab who were what...1 inch from the Super Bowl? Good play, earned win on a great game).

But he has ZERO class pretty much any time he open his mouth.

I'd have to see the same interviews you saw. The times I've seen him he was totally ok. I liked his crazy post game interview.

A man hopped up on football. Primal moment. Just made a career highlight play against a rival. His reaction was human.

edit: plus it was hilarious

Edited by CtrlAltWheee, 27 May 2014 - 04:39 PM.

[Livewyr]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why?

Lets say we were to spend 10 hours writing up very long and detailed suggestions. What are the odds of it getting into the game? Pretty much zero (ask anyone who has been here since closed beta).

See ECM. Plenty of very well thought out and detailed posts have been made as to why the current implementation is horrible, complete with suggestions. And yet we still have this ridiculous cloaking mechanism that makes you immune to LRMs/streaks with a 1.5 ton module. How many of the suggestions were used? Zero?

We do not get compensated in any way for posting suggesitons and feedback, we do not even get recognized, nor is there any indication that the suggestions and feedback are taken seriously at all....so the logical conclusion is that we shouldnt do it.

Even in the reddit Q&A, Russ refused to discuss the PPC/Ballistic boating meta which has been a core problem plaguing the game for like....a year?

Things have happened, some directly caused by player suggestions (PGI admitted they hadn't thought of it- one of those things was the arm lock.)

----------------------

Outside of that, if one doesn't like what one sees, and one doesn't really have anything to add to improve it.. why stick around?

[Krinkov]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why?

Someone created a detailed new way to balance hit boxes on the mechs and PGI listened very well to that. It started with the phoenix mechs and they have retrofitted every chassis that has gotten a hero since then. It's the reason the shadowhawk is such a beast even though it's as tall as a highlander. The hit boxes are perfect for spreading damage via torso twisting.

People have been clamoring for burst fire ACs to break up front loaded damage and PGI is using that method to balance the clans. It may not be perfect but they do listen.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 27 May 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Things have happened, some directly caused by player suggestions (PGI admitted they hadn't thought of it- one of those things was the arm lock.)

----------------------

Outside of that, if one doesn't like what one sees, and one doesn't really have anything to add to improve it.. why stick around?

Yup, and I will arrogate myself big time for forcing the armlock issue to be acknowledged (and the bloody missiles).

Hey works for Richard Sherman to declare his own greatness, maybe it's time for me to start?

Anyhow, it, they do listen some. Sometimes, it turns out to the wrong people. Just a shame they generally hold the community at arms length.

Krinkov, on 27 May 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Someone created a detailed new way to balance hit boxes on the mechs and PGI listened very well to that. It started with the phoenix mechs and they have retrofitted every chassis that has gotten a hero since then. It's the reason the shadowhawk is such a beast even though it's as tall as a highlander. The hit boxes are perfect for spreading damage via torso twisting.

People have been clamoring for burst fire ACs to break up front loaded damage and PGI is using that method to balance the clans. It may not be perfect but they do listen.

Do you have any idea how long ago CarrionCrows suggested that, and how long he and many others beat that drum before Paul finally was willing to even consider it?

Yes, he finally did, with little credit given where due, but only after it was apparent to the rest of the community it was an issue for more than a year.

Let's not saint the guy just yet, even if I get the feeling Paul get stuck with a lot of things happening before he thinks they should go forward, he still also has had some doozies of ideas like ghost heat.

[Krinkov]

I agree ghost heat is not good at all. I just made a post about how you won't be able to fire a single UAC2 in double tap mode without tripping ghost heat.

[Abivard]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

is there like...Cliffsnotes for the relevant points?


Please?

The Kübler-Ross model], or the five stages of grief, is a series of emotional stages experienced when faced with impending death or death of someone. The five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Edited by Abivard, 27 May 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krinkov, on 27 May 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

I agree ghost heat is not good at all. I just made a post about how you won't be able to fire a single UAC2 in double tap mode without tripping ghost heat.

And also, hopefully you don't take as me dumping on you. It's just in general, PGI's listening to the community has been few and far between, and rather begrudgingly, in most cases.

[Ngamok]

Solahma, on 27 May 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

http://i.imgur.com/RQ39mK5.jpg

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 27 May 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

That does not include telling everyone else to stop spending money.. they may like what they see enough to do so.

Stop buying the Clan packs like gullible foos. At least wait until the mechs are released to know what you are getting. Packs will still be on sale after release.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 May 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[Ngamok]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

And also, hopefully you don't take as me dumping on you. It's just in general, PGI's listening to the community has been few and far between, and rather begrudgingly, in most cases.

Ghost Heat was a community idea Paul ran with.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 27 May 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Stop buying the Clan packs like gullible foos. At least wait until the mechs are released to know what you are getting. Packs will still be on sale after release.

then you kinda lose the special pricing and bonuses.....which is kind of the point for the packs. But then, I am actually one of the few who seems to like his Phoenix Mechs.

[CeeKay Boques]

I'm a gray Knight. Getting old waiting for all the things I told people to just hold their horses on, the "plan" was good.

Makin' me look pretty dumb here...

Don't worry we'll show'em with CW, won't we boy? Won't we? Go get'em! Go get that CW!!!

K... well... when you're done here, we'll go get that CW, ok boy?

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

then you kinda lose the special pricing and bonuses.....which is kind of the point for the packs. But then, I am actually one of the few who seems to like his Phoenix Mechs.

That's the entire reason why people are suckered in for. I try to keep a level headed approach. If PGI rubs my back, I'll rub back, but not before.

Last time I pre-ordered a game, it gave me so much disappointment I vowed to never pre-order like a fool again, even with bonuses. (It was TW:R2)

Edited by El Bandito, 27 May 2014 - 05:42 PM.

[Wolfways]

shad0w4life, on 27 May 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

MW:LL did NOT hit a legal wall, that rumor was fake as stated by Criminal of the MW:LL Team, IGP/PGI did NOT drop a lawsuit on them.

http://www.escapistm...-Pulls-the-Plug

Just to balance this out...
When you hold all the cards you don't need to make threats.