26 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

With limited resources, the amount that is on the plate for PGI is immense with all that they have left to work on. I understand that the Clans were a very tempting thing to add, given the popularity of the clans amongst those who are newer to the universe. The issue, however, is that they are a radical departure from what was previously in the universe and take time to properly introduce.

Where this is an issue with the way that this game is being developed, is that you are having to devote resources to developing the clans while the 'core' of the game still isn't in place. What this will lead to, due to the limited resources, is that both the 'core' of the game and the clan aspects of the game, as we've seen over the last year and a half or so, don't receive the full and proper amount of attention that they should have.

I know it is way too late to do so now.. but I just think that this game would have been on a much better footing if the timeframe would have started in the 3025 time frame so that the focus could be placed on developing the core of the game... the inner sphere, the community warfare, and fleshing out the game. Once that was achieved, then the Clans could be worked on and worked into the game via a time jump, as has been proposed by the development staff to speed up the 'appearances' of more advanced techs and mechs.

I just cant help but feel that PGI has missed an opportunity to develop a fundamentally sound game when they fell into the trap of the Clans without having a solid core game in place before hand.

[Novakaine]

That's where it should have started.

[Diablobo]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda is not helpful.

We need to focus on where we are now, not where we might have been.

[Foxfire]

Diablobo, on 27 May 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Woulda, coulda, shoulda is not helpful.

We need to focus on where we are now, not where we might have been.

Don't think what we will have is sustainable longterm. If community warfare is watered down, then this game is as good as dead. We already know that Clans are going to be watered down.

[CycKath]

Definitely!

Problem is unlike TT fans, a worryingly high percentage of old timey MW players are Clan fans and it would result in large amount of whine if they had stuck with a pure 3025 game

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

CycKath, on 27 May 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Definitely!

Problem is unlike TT fans, a worryingly high percentage of old timey MW players are Clan fans and it would result in large amount of whine if they had stuck with a pure 3025 game

Given how many MW games featured the MadCat as the flagship mech, MWO would have been pretty much doomed without the promise of the Clans to come sooner rather than later.

That said, I'd love for there to be 3025, 3049, and 305X play modes. In other words, Tech1, Tech2, and Clan Invasion.

[Gremlich Johns]

I've been saying 3025 that since closed Beta. About time some others started waking up.

[Gyrok]

I have played TT for...jeez...20 years...?! I loved playing the clans...it was interesting to play them. Though I chose to do so in small numbers...typically fielding just a star of mechs against other groups bringing as many as 3-4 lances. It was challenging to play against so many. I liked being outnumbered.

Much of the draw that "would have, could have, should have" been clan mechs is being lost in the name of "equal tech". I understand TT is OP as hell...I would not be playing 3 to 1 outnumbered otherwise. However, I do think they could have made that a thing in MWO. THAT gameplay was crazy. It was almost like zerg vs. protoss back in the original starcraft days. Where you had 100s of zerglings and perhaps 30-40 templars...

That being said, I likely would not have spent near what I have if clans were not coming...I have basically lost all interest in the IS stuff these days.

Edited by Gyrok, 27 May 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[Foxfire]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

I have played TT for...jeez...20 years...?! I loved playing the clans...it was interesting to play them. Though I chose to do so in small numbers...typically fielding just a star of mechs against other groups bringing as many as 3-4 lances. It was challenging to play against so many. I liked being outnumbered.

Much of the draw that "would have, could have, should have" been clan mechs is being lost in the name of "equal tech". I understand TT is OP as hell...I would not be playing 3 to 1 outnumbered otherwise. However, I do think they could have made that a thing in MWO. THAT gameplay was crazy. It was almost like zerg vs. protoss back in the original starcraft days. Where you had 100s of zerglings and perhaps 30-40 templars...

I enjoy a bit of the clan as well.. I just feel that they are attempting to do too much at one time instead of doing a phased implementation that allows them to properly build upon the game to be able to allow for a full implementation of all aspects of the game.

[Bishop Steiner]

While I do wish that were the case also, realistically, financially, I get why it didn't.


MW5 Trailer and pitch was set in 3015. On top of a certain "beloved" License Holder making their usual legal stink over the image of a Warhammer, you also got absolutely ZERO Publisher interest.


And it's not hard to understand why.

All the notable MechWarrior/Battletech titles, even their game lore and books for the last 23 years, have been based around the Clans. MW2, MW2 GBL, MW·, Pirates Moon, MC1, MC2, MW4 Vengeance, BNL and Mercs. Even the adored MW2 Mercs ended with the Clan Invasion, and introduction of Star League tech as it progressed. Ditto the platform games.

And yes, even though MW2 Mercs started with 3025 era tech, it was only well after the first 2 Clan Based titles had solidified the franchise.

So when the Publishers were pitched an MW title, after years of torpor, with NO MADCAT? None of the current Iconographic Elements associated with MechWarrior? Not hard to get.

Even with MWO, it was set specifically to embrace the Clan Invasion, inarguably the biggest plot line in the entire franchise (even old 3025 era books were secretly built around it with the Dragoons and Comstr subplots).

Just look at the amount of forum requests for Clan Mechs for the last 2 years, and the Uziel MadCat II, etc.

Sad truth, the backers of the 3025 era are the minority. The only way I see us getting what we want, other than in Stock Mech Mondays, is if MWO does persevere and survive, and need add ons or expansions.

I'd love it. I want it. I question a lot of what PGI does, but that is one part i get, even if I wish it were not so.

[Foxfire]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

While I do wish that were the case also, realistically, financially, I get why it didn't.


MW5 Trailer and pitch was set in 3015. On top of a certain "beloved" License Holder making their usual legal stink over the image of a Warhammer, you also got absolutely ZERO Publisher interest.


And it's not hard to understand why.

All the notable MechWarrior/Battletech titles, even their game lore and books for the last 23 years, have been based around the Clans. MW2, MW2 GBL, MW·, Pirates Moon, MC1, MC2, MW4 Vengeance, BNL and Mercs. Even the adored MW2 Mercs ended with the Clan Invasion, and introduction of Star League tech as it progressed. Ditto the platform games.

And yes, even though MW2 Mercs started with 3025 era tech, it was only well after the first 2 Clan Based titles had solidified the franchise.

So when the Publishers were pitched an MW title, after years of torpor, with NO MADCAT? None of the current Iconographic Elements associated with MechWarrior? Not hard to get.

Even with MWO, it was set specifically to embrace the Clan Invasion, inarguably the biggest plot line in the entire franchise (even old 3025 era books were secretly built around it with the Dragoons and Comstr subplots).

Just look at the amount of forum requests for Clan Mechs for the last 2 years, and the Uziel MadCat II, etc.

Sad truth, the backers of the 3025 era are the minority. The only way I see us getting what we want, other than in Stock Mech Mondays, is if MWO does persevere and survive, and need add ons or expansions.

I'd love it. I want it. I question a lot of what PGI does, but that is one part i get, even if I wish it were not so.

I get why they did, too.. but I just feel that they really pushed forward too fast with the Clans to the detriment to the longterm health of the game. The clans, by their nature, need a really solid foundation to be a part of. Without that foundation, you get what we are getting.. watered down clans and an unknown quality of what is, arguably, the biggest aspect of the game.. community warfare.

It should have been a phased introduction. Start with the bases, community warfare.. add the more advanced techs(aka T2) and balance them properly.. then finally culminate with the Clans and the advances that came afterwards. Once they had a willingness to abandon the 1 to 1 timeline and entertain time skips, there was no reason for them to rush directly to clans outside of falling for the money trap that the clans represent.

See, I bought into the founders in Closed beta.. I bought into the Pheonix project.. but I have yet, nor do I plan to, buy into the clans. I enjoy the clans but I've always felt that it was too early to be talking clans without having the Innersphere solidly sorted out and core gameplay mechanics in place.

[Bishop Steiner]

Foxfire, on 27 May 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

I get why they did, too.. but I just feel that they really pushed forward too fast with the Clans to the detriment to the longterm health of the game. The clans, by their nature, need a really solid foundation to be a part of. Without that foundation, you get what we are getting.. watered down clans and an unknown quality of what is, arguably, the biggest aspect of the game.. community warfare.

It should have been a phased introduction. Start with the bases, community warfare.. add the more advanced techs(aka T2) and balance them properly.. then finally culminate with the Clans and the advances that came afterwards. Once they had a willingness to abandon the 1 to 1 timeline and entertain time skips, there was no reason for them to rush directly to clans outside of falling for the money trap that the clans represent.

See, I bought into the founders in Closed beta.. I bought into the Pheonix project.. but I have yet, nor do I plan to, buy into the clans. I enjoy the clans but I've always felt that it was too early to be talking clans without having the Innersphere solidly sorted out and core gameplay mechanics in place.

Oh , I totally agree.

IMO, TBH, we should still be in Beta. And the Time line should not even have been mentioned until at least open Beta, if not Launch.

THEN, after CW was up and functional, with balance being tested between IS factions, would be the time to have mentioned Clan Packages being available, then as Open Beta counted down to the Rock, 3049, they could have used the release of the Clans as the Launch kickoff, and have had an event with some real fanfare and excitement.

Instead we had a buggy, but mostly fun Closed Beta, followed by an increasingly contentious relationship between Devs and Community in Open Beta, leading to one of the most Milquetoast Launch events in the history of gaming, to a "hey buy your Clan Mechs for Xmas" announcement to a June 17th Clan INvasion date that has zero excitement going for it.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just some guy who is bitter because Paul doesn't listen to me, apparently, lol.

[Foxfire]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 27 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

There's still ways to re-investigate different timeline rules better in the Private Lobbies. While we look at setting up easy options, we encourage players to use lobbies to establish their own home brew rules.

For the perspective of establishing Community Warfare, the 3050 timeline works better since many players also have strong memories of the Clans.

While it would be nice to be able to do so via private lobbies, that doesn't really address the concerns that I am bringing up.

Mostly it is this: How much development time, effort, and resources have gone into working on introducing the clans when a bigger part of what will make the game a long term success or failure, community warfare, falls further and further behind the initial schedule? Additionally, can you demonstrate that the end product of both Community warfare, and the clans themselves, will not suffer from splitting those same resources, time, and effort between two efforts instead of devoting those resources to one effort at a time?

I say this because I care. I seriously care not only for the longterm of this game, but of anything Battletech related. This is, as I see it, the last serious attempt that will probably be made at a Battletech game of this style and I want it to be a huge success.

[SweetJackal]

Foxfire, on 27 May 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

While it would be nice to be able to do so via private lobbies, that doesn't really address the concerns that I am bringing up.

Mostly it is this: How much development time, effort, and resources have gone into working on introducing the clans when a bigger part of what will make the game a long term success or failure, community warfare, falls further and further behind the initial schedule? Additionally, can you demonstrate that the end product of both Community warfare, and the clans themselves, will not suffer from splitting those same resources, time, and effort between two efforts instead of devoting those resources to one effort at a time?

I say this because I care. I seriously care not only for the longterm of this game, but of anything Battletech related. This is, as I see it, the last serious attempt that will probably be made at a Battletech game of this style and I want it to be a huge success.

To be fair, from what I have pieced together from different statements from different members of the PGI staff is that the current Clans wasn't a choice by the developers. Being that it wasn't done the way they wanted to the point of them maybe being blindsided from an edict from On High.

Several accounts have marketing being in charge of things like sales.

[Alex Warden]

Novakaine, on 27 May 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

That's where it should have started.

and we begged them to do so a million times thruout closed beta, plsplsplspls PGI ... but no, they were pretty clear about that from the start, because "most BT fans out there love the Timberwolf, we want those players to pay our game"...

they didn´t realize that, some QQ aside, those players would still have played the game, waiting for the timeline progress to the EPIC ARRIVAL of the clans...

but hey, whom do we fool here, if they went that way, we still wouldn´t have Inner Sphere wars, we would maybe have skipped the past 6 month of clan production, nothing more... maybe Phase1 would be around the corner by NOW...

the game would still be the same as now, just with fewer weapons and some other mechs...

[ShadowSpirit]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 27 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

There's still ways to re-investigate different timeline rules better in the Private Lobbies. While we look at setting up easy options, we encourage players to use lobbies to establish their own home brew rules.

For the perspective of establishing Community Warfare, the 3050 timeline works better since many players also have strong memories of the Clans.

I would really like to see stock mech only option - with no modules. Just want to play and enjoy the game the way it was meant to be played without all this extra fluff that detracts from the tried and true original.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Foxfire, on 27 May 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

With limited resources, the amount that is on the plate for PGI is immense with all that they have left to work on. I understand that the Clans were a very tempting thing to add, given the popularity of the clans amongst those who are newer to the universe. The issue, however, is that they are a radical departure from what was previously in the universe and take time to properly introduce.

Where this is an issue with the way that this game is being developed, is that you are having to devote resources to developing the clans while the 'core' of the game still isn't in place. What this will lead to, due to the limited resources, is that both the 'core' of the game and the clan aspects of the game, as we've seen over the last year and a half or so, don't receive the full and proper amount of attention that they should have.

I know it is way too late to do so now.. but I just think that this game would have been on a much better footing if the timeframe would have started in the 3025 time frame so that the focus could be placed on developing the core of the game... the inner sphere, the community warfare, and fleshing out the game. Once that was achieved, then the Clans could be worked on and worked into the game via a time jump, as has been proposed by the development staff to speed up the 'appearances' of more advanced techs and mechs.

I just cant help but feel that PGI has missed an opportunity to develop a fundamentally sound game when they fell into the trap of the Clans without having a solid core game in place before hand.

Been saying this since closed beta bro...

preaching to the chior.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 27 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

There's still ways to re-investigate different timeline rules better in the Private Lobbies. While we look at setting up easy options, we encourage players to use lobbies to establish their own home brew rules.

For the perspective of establishing Community Warfare, the 3050 timeline works better since many players also have strong memories of the Clans.

Only because of Mechwarrior 2.

Had the decision been made to start in 3025, you could have opened up a new generation to what some started with back in 1985... instead the decision was made to try to cash in on the clans arrival.

Community Warfare actually would have worked FAR BETTER if limited to the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere to begin with. You have 4 factions, 5 possibly, Plus Periphery Pirates and nations, You have TONS of content to still get though, as well as a BASE CORE PLACE to have started balancing. Basic Tier 1 Tech.

You would have had overall less to work with, and could have made that shine, THEN, then when everyone's good and ready a year after you had that polished, you could have pushed to 3049, introducing the advent of the extra tech from the Helm Memory Core discovery... [Thank you GDL] You could have worked those things in, then suddenly, BOOM, Clan announcement. It would have given you tons of time working on clans in the background while making a solid foundation to build apon, it would have been possible to do a sudden attack, a giant in game event, then, the announcement "hey guys, clans are here, buy your clan packs now!"

Heck you could have even run a big tournament to decide which pilots got their hands on playable clanmechs first to go against the inner sphere. [something akin to Trial mechs for the winners, not given clan machines, as it would be their perticipation in the invasion to spark things off, basically acting as an advertisement for the clans for you.] And then started selling the clan mechpack.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that you tried to expand to a larger audiance by focusing on Clan Era, due to prior mechwarrior games...

But you shot yourselves in the foot in regards to making a solid building base.

[AlexEss]

It is a traditional damned if they do, damned if they do not.

Had they gone with the 3025-line they would have been facing heavy critique from the people who are fans of the clans and want to play in the invasion era. Also we have to understand that investors usually care very little about why something is not going as planned, only the bottom line and if PGI made projections for the clans as a major component in how to make money they did most likley not have much of a choice in launching them even if the other component like SW was not in place. After all going by the original time-line there would have been plenty of time to get CW done and still get the clans out by this summer.

Then as we know stuff pushed that back and here we are.with clans and no CW. But the matter of the fact is that by the time everything went pear-shaped it was potentially to late to change the course.... It is worth thinking about.

So yes.. would have, should have, could have are fun to speculate about. But we are where we are.

Edited by AlexEss, 27 May 2014 - 11:23 PM.

[Alex Warden]

AlexEss, on 27 May 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

So yes.. would have, should have, could have are fun to speculate about. But we are where we are.

yea but currently it´s more fun to speculate than to play the actual game... that´s at least true for me, so i keep playing the game i enjoy