61 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

YueFei, on 28 May 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

You can twist&fire with AC5s. They don't require you to stare your opponent down. The skill level required to do this is higher than with SRM6s with 4 second reload time, but it can still be done. I've seen top players do it frequently.

It's not a matter of skill with "twisting with AC5s". At 1.66 seconds per reload, there just isn't any time to twist a decent amount and aim again. It's just not practical and you would be bringing down your DPS. If you watch JagerXII and other poptart dudes, they just stare at their target and dump a decent amount of rounds and then either just disengage, or try to twist away.

YueFei, on 28 May 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

If SRMs are not a superior alternative to AC5s even in a fight that starts at point-blank brawling range, why ever bring SRMs instead of AC5s (assuming you have the hardpoints for either one)? Why aren't brawl decks composed of PPC + SRM combos? Instead, they are still PPC + AC combos. I saw lots of AC20s and lots of medium lasers on the Frozen City tournament matches. Hell, I even saw Streaks. But hardly any SRMs. =/

If SRMs actually registered, you would actually be seeing those. Tournament teams don't want to leave the matters into the hitreg gods, so they just take the safe route with ACs/PPCs and lasers. ACs and SRM combos offer superior survivability at close range to those alternatives. At the moment, they're trying to reach this survivability with high damage/low ROF weapons like AC20s.

Edited by Tahribator, 28 May 2014 - 01:25 AM.

[EvilCow]

Don't try to use math, logic, evidence or experience. SRMs are fine because reasons.

[El Bandito]

Tahribator, on 28 May 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

If SRMs actually registered, you would actually be seeing those. Tournament teams don't want to leave the matters into the hitreg gods, so they just take the safe route with ACs/PPCs and lasers.

Wrong. PPC and AC has 3-4 times more range than SRMs and can deliver all the damage in one spot. Combine that with teamwork, you can kill any mech within seconds using focus fire, from long range. That's why they are used. Even if SRMs are registering, it will still be AC+PPC fest up top.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 01:27 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

YueFei, on 28 May 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

However, if the AC5 is considered to be balanced, then SRMs are underpowered in comparison.

In a fight that starts at 270 meters and *stays* at 250 meters? I have no problem with AC5s outperforming SRMs, assuming you invest equivalent tonnage into both. So if you have 2xAC5, the equivalent investment in SRMs would be 4xASRM6. But if you fight at 90 meters and 4xASRM6 don't significantly outperform 2xAC5 in a point-blank-range brawl, what's the point?

I'm yet to meet a 'meta' config with regular PPCs and AC5s that can kill my 3xSRM6 Cent inside 90m in a one-on-one fight provided me and him are equally undamaged. 'Meta' Highlanders and Victors die in like 10 seconds in a brawl vs the SRM DDC Atlas. Even smth like an undamaded Jenner or Spider can kill the 'meta' one-on-one if he ambushes it well. I'm sure you'll agree that 3xSRM6s are more effective then 6xMLs in terms of effective damage into desired component vs generated heat.

On a side note however ... in BT each weapon fires once a turn, meaning that each turn (either 10 seconds or 5 seconds depending on a ruleset), you can either fire an SRM6 and deal 2x6 damage or an AC5 and deal 5 damage. In MWO its different, and even given the latest cooldown increase for AC2s and AC5s, the AC5 still recycles in 1.66 seconds, while SRM6 does so in 4 seconds. I've said many times, that the recycle rates PGI has given to ballistic weapons are completely dumb, they made ACs overpowered big time, but problem is, there is no guarantee the game balance will be any better if you just equalize all the recycle times for all weapons.

From my point of view, with the exception of LRMs, weapons are balanced in terms of DPS and HPS. Automatic instant conergence tho make the pinpoint-damage weapon types (PPCs+ACs+Gauss) way better in terms of effectively killing mechs. Imagine that your PPCs and ACs are hitting random parts of the mech, much like streaks do ... I'm sure you'll agree that with current damage values SRMs will become overpowered.

All in all ... I do believe that the hit reg needs to be fixed first. When it becomes 100% reliable, we can start dealing with weapon balance, because otherwise its hard to tell if one weapon is just better than the other, or if it just happens to have a better average hit reg.

[Kmieciu]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 May 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

I'm yet to meet a 'meta' config with regular PPCs and AC5s that can kill my 3xSRM6 Cent inside 90m in a one-on-one fight provided me and him are equally undamaged.

Belive it or not, but I've seen one splatcat during this weekend! It actually ambushed me and unloaded 6xSRM6 into the back of my Firestarter. I lost my rear armor, but it somehow did not damage my internals. And my FS9-A has only 8 points of rear CT armor. I quickly dispatched it using 4xML+4xSL. It did not stand a chance and I didn't even had to torso twist while running circles around it. It is really easy to core a Catapult, because of its large CT.

I remember when the splash damage was "bugged" a Splatcat could take down a 35-tonner in one lucky blast. I might have been unintended, but it was actually a good game design. Gauss, ACs and PPCs were deadly at long range, Large lasers were the easiest to deal damage at medium range, but at point blank SRMs were simply the most efficient weapons.

AND THIS IS HOW THEY SHOULD BE.

Edited by Kmieciu, 28 May 2014 - 02:24 AM.

[Tahribator]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Wrong. PPC and AC has 3-4 times more range than SRMs and can deliver all the damage in one spot. Combine that with teamwork, you can kill any mech within seconds using focus fire, from long range. That's why they are used. Even if SRMs are registering, it will still be AC+PPC fest up top.

Meh, there are maps where it's actually easier to get into brawling ranges(Frozen Colony, River City, Crimson, HPG) and it makes more sense to bring brawlers on those maps along with usual poptarts.

You probably don't want brawlers in maps like Alpine where weapon range and damage application is king though.

Edited by Tahribator, 28 May 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

Tahribator, on 28 May 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

Meh, there are maps where it's actually easier to get into brawling ranges(Frozen Colony, River City, Crimson, HPG) and it makes more sense to bring brawlers on those maps along with usual poptarts.

You probably don't want brawlers in maps like Alpine where weapon range and damage application is king though.

Easier when compared to other maps, but still not easy. In most serious matches, the advancing side will get cut down easily.

[PhoenixFire55]

Kmieciu, on 28 May 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

Belive it or not, but I've seen one splatcat during this weekend! It actually ambushed me and unloaded 6xSRM6 into the back of my Firestarter. I lost my rear armor, but it somehow did not damage my internals. And my FS9-A has only 8 points of rear CT armor. I quickly dispatched it using 4xML+4xSL. It did not stand a chance and I didn't even had to torso twist while running circles around it. It is really easy to core a Catapult, because of its large CT.

I remember when the splash damage was "bugged" a Splatcat could take down a 35-tonner in one lucky blast. I might have been unintended, but it was actually a good game design. Gauss, ACs and PPCs were deadly at long range, Large lasers were the easiest to deal damage at medium range, but at point blank SRMs were simply the most efficient weapons.

AND THIS IS HOW THEY SHOULD BE.

Hit reg ...
Welcome to the pew pew game where your pew pew does something only with like 70% probability.

One shotted a powered down Firestarter into rear CT with just 3xSRM6s yesterday. Like 20m range.

I still think that only proper way to make short range weapons truly effective is to make it impossible for long range weapons to converge on short distances. I.e. your ERPPCs, Gauss rifles and AC2s still do damage inside say 200m, but they can't all point into same spot anymore. Boom, problem solved, LBXs and SRMs are viable yaay.

[zortesh]

Srms are frankly a joke, they hurt when they register.. but if register is a coin toss.

My personal experience with them is so bad that during that super nerfed missile day i played a couple of rounds with srms... afterwards my teammates asked me if it affected srms... I replied that I couldn't tell.

If i see a srm mech i often treat it as a unarmed mech...

I mean they do really hurt quite a bit when they hit.... but them hitting as likley as stepping out your door and tripping over a pile of gold coins. ( atleast in my experience.)

[VXJaeger]

Splatcat can be dealt by heat scaling. Put on limitation that if player alphas more than 20 tubes of SRM, they cook their mech to pieces and we're done.
Must remember that other mechs than A1 can also boat a lot of SRM's, mainly Stalkers in which 2*ASRM6+2*ASRM4 is pretty common sight.

Raising dmg to 3 and tighten grouping might be temporary solution to HSR-problems, but I don't see why their speed should be raised. SRM's are truly skill-based weapons, and they should be kept that way. Speed increase would easen their usage to no-brainer level.

Edited by VXJaeger, 28 May 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[Rubidiy]

please take into account, how really effective a weapon can be and why.

Battle effectiveness is comprised of:
- weight (DHS and ammunition included)
- damage per shot
- viable distance
- quantity of weapons you can squeeze into existing mechs.

Spoiler

- Weight.
I hear a lot of complains about srm damage. Now exclude every other factor for a moment please. This principle is essential to understand. Exclude everything else and compare weight with each single factor.
SRM6 weights 3 tons and does 12 damage. SRM2 weights 1 ton and does 4 damage. These are seemingly great numbers. We excluded every other factor, and we can say that there's no problem with damage per ton. I'm not adding ammunition and DHS weight just to make it clear. We'll return to it in "damage per shot". Ammunition can be counted easily by ability to fire 25 alfa-strikes. More than 25 is excessive. Firing 15 alfas is a number you should try to reach every match to be sre that you were useful for your team.
- Heat.
SRMs generate mediocre heat. Firing 4 SRM6-es generates 17.2 heat, which is more than generous compared to 48 damage. I don't wanna go into all details, but rules are simple here: if you equip up to SRM18 (other weapons excluded), you're fine with your 10 DHS. If you want to equip more, start adding 1.2 DHS per additional SRM-launcher and for your other weapons too.
Ghost heat is pretty geneous, so generally it prevents you only from firing 6 SRM4/6 launchers at a time. This is a fine tuning which prevents players from firing up to 72 damage per shot. And it does not prevent you entirely, because 29.4 heat is a lot but not too much. You still can make this shot without overheating. Anyway it's easy to manage by applying chain fire or dividing all SRMs into two groups. You can make 36 damage then wait for 0.5 second and do 36 damage again. We don't have to spend a lot of space and tonnage on DHSs. We have highest alfa-damage possible of all builds. We don't have any problems with heat here. That's for sure.

- Damage per shot
As it was already mentioned, that we have highest damaging capabilities with SRMs. Although most brawling mechs would use up to 4 launchers, we still have that Catapult-A1 problem with 6 launchers. It cann't be disregarded for people will start abusing A1 if SRMs get buffed enough to make 6 srm6 build overpowered. Now we have 72 alfa damage for A1 using 6 ASRM6 launchers. Add another 0.1 damage per missile, and you get +3.6 to alfa damage. It means that we cann't add considerable ammount of damage per missile, because highest possible alfa will rise accordingly.
Compare it to the total weight and we get 24 tons for 6 ASRM6-es + 9 tons of ammunition + 3 additional DHS = 36 tons, which A1 cann't afford: CPLT-A1
But it is possible if you get rid of Artemis, which leads us to the next factor.

- Viable distance.
let's look at viable distance per damage.
1 PPC does 10 damage at 550m. I'm conparing this weapon as it is most used in sniper builds, so it is most useful to be compared when we're talking about sniper vs. brawler balance.
And 1 ASRM6 does 10 damage at... 100m. Yes. We're talking about viable damage and distance. Hitting a light mech at all is viable. Hitting medium, heavy, let alone assault mech without being able to deal damage to a chosen component is not viable. The heavier your opponent is, the less use you get from hitting his unvital components.
And here we have our huge problem. Damage is great, weight is good, heat is ok, but distance is horrible. 270m is just a number that has nothing to do with real SRM effectiveness atm. Damage from outstanding becomes pityful if you realise how much time it takes to get closer to your long-range opponent. DPS does not mean much here, for you should count all shots you take before reaching these 100m at which you can start shooting at chosen component.
Thus you can really see, how unprofitable it is to use SRMs. And we should not ask for a better damage or less heat or less weight. These are pretty well balanced atm.

- Quantity
Alas we cann't target balancing system at number of 4 SRM launchers, because A1 is still around. We should always take it into account while making our balancing suggestions.

My suggestion is based on couple of min and max ammounts.
minimal
- SRM2 does 4 damage opposed to 5 damage of streakSRM2. Streaks weight 1.5 tons. They require BAP and time to lock on. They hit random components... so they're really ok.
But SRM2 equipped with Artemis weights 2 tons, does not have aimbot, does not guarantee a hit because if a spread at 270m even if you're shooting at stationary target. And we're talking about weapon that sends it's missiles at 300mps speed. It means that srms need 0.9 seconds to reach 270m. Even for MWo it is an eternity. So basicaly we're looking at very skill-dependant weapon, based on trajectory predicting capabilities. And astounding thing is that even we're skilled enough to predict where a quick moving mech will be in 0.9 seconds (let alone time for realising that our aim is good and making a click), we're not getting that guaranteed hit!!! This is something that should be changed. you cann't abuse ASRM2s. Even Kintaro needs to spend 10 tons for 5 ASRM2s to make this 20 damage shot at 270m travelling for 0.9 second. This hit should be almost 100% accurate. Now even ASRM2 keeps hitting wrong components at this range. And only if you're 100m away from your target, you can be sure that both missiles hit targeted component. ASRM4 and ASRM6 miss targeted component of a stationary target even if youget closer than 100m!!! How is that a good balance???!!!
You should use all your caution and positioning skills to get close to your enemy, you will inevitably get multiple pinpoint hits during this procedure, and when you finally reach your mech, your weapons do a highly unpredictable damage. 33% of your Alfa-strike will always go in vain even at 100m range. So even if you do this maximum 72 damage with CPLT-A1, by the time you reached that distance you're badly damaged, your Alfa is spreaded all over the opponent's mech and your DPS, your heat and pityful state prevent you from living much longer. So once again it comes to a distance.
Exact numbers are a question of testing. I do understand that ingame calculations are more complicated, but this is something just to give the idea:
--------100m . 200m . 270m
SRM2 .100% . 80% ... 60% of missiles hit inside of targeting circle
SRM4 . 80% . 60% ... 45%
SRM6 . 60% . 45% ... 33%
ASRM2 .100% . 100% . 100%
ASRM4 . 90% . 80% ... 70%
ASRM6 . 80% . 70% ... 60%

Edited by Rubidiy, 28 May 2014 - 04:05 AM.

[Deathlike]

While I don't necessarily subscribe to increasing damage per missile to 3, I would simply reject nerfing SRMs outright on Paul's whims. I mean, it's not as if a weapon system was crippled for over a year (well, pulse lasers and flamers are at the top of that list) and brawling is generally non-existent until "cleanup" happens.

[CDLord HHGD]

SRMs are supposed to be at 2 damage per missile. The issue lies in hit detection. If the damn things hit when they were supposed to, we wouldn't have an issue. They are supposed to be a spread damage weapon (like the LBX).

[Joseph Mallan]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Strange, then why can i boat 4 AC5s and core a full hp Atlas from 620 meters in 13.28 seconds, and not have to worry about overheating to boot?

Cause that isn't a SINGLE weapon. Its 4.

[Koniks]

Reitrix, on 28 May 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

And have back the old one shot Splatcat from CB? No thanks. 6x SRM6 with a tight enough spread to only hit a CT at 90~ means they'd be hitting center mass with at least 80% of the missiles from its optimal range of 270.

You do realize that Six SRM6's is 108 damage in a single salvo if they went with your plan, right? Two salvos to blow an Atlas to pieces. No thanks. If the damage was ever moved to 3, they'd need to WIDEN the spread.

If you can get within 100m of an Atlas and survive long enough in a mech that carries 6 SRM launchers to fire 2 salvos on target with 36 SRMs then you deserve to do that kind of hurt. That thing's either going to be really slow or carry an XL engine and be really vulnerable.

That being said, after hit reg. is fixed, their speed should be slightly improved before we start talking about adjusting damage.

Edited by Mizeur, 28 May 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Reitrix, on 27 May 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Because the game was never designed to let you efficiently destroy an Assault 'Mech with a single weapon?

No, actually, it seems like its trying to make the TTK of a Mech that of a sniper shot to the head in most human FPS....

and the nerfing wont stop until everything is a value of 1...

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Cause that isn't a SINGLE weapon. Its 4.

Not only isn't it a single weapon, it's also 32 tons and a completely terrible Atlas pilot!



At the OP:

I agree with your primary premise, that SRMs are just too inefficient. Also, I like the effort you put into your thread.

Aside from the near mythical HitReg fix, here are my opinions:

1) Flight speed needs to be increased to 500m/s. This will likely tighten spread on it's own.
2) Once HitReg is fixed, and if Flight Speed increased, if there are still issues I'd say either the spread needs to be tightened further OR keep the spread but increase the damage per missile OR reduce the heat per shot so they have better heat efficiency. Just one likely, and not all 3 of these.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 May 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Not only isn't it a single weapon, it's also 32 tons and a completely terrible Atlas pilot!



At the OP:

I agree with your primary premise, that SRMs are just too inefficient. Also, I like the effort you put into your thread.

Aside from the near mythical HitReg fix, here are my opinions:

1) Flight speed needs to be increased to 500m/s. This will likely tighten spread on it's own.
2) Once HitReg is fixed, and if Flight Speed increased, if there are still issues I'd say either the spread needs to be tightened further OR keep the spread but increase the damage per missile OR reduce the heat per shot so they have better heat efficiency. Just one likely, and not all 3 of these.

SRMs were never a tight missile spread though. they were more like 2 point crit seekers.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

SRMs were never a tight missile spread though. they were more like 2 point crit seekers.

You forgot the SRM wave pattern spread we used to have. Good players took advantage of that and fired at certain distance so most missiles will hit one location.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

You forgot the SRM wave pattern spread we used to have. Good players took advantage of that and fired at certain distance so most missiles will hit one location.

No... I didn't forget.