61 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Dymlos2003, on 28 May 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Wrong, srms hunt crits. That's all and were made to be used with other weapons.

lol what

Crit seekers, they aren't. I'm not even sure why you are even suggesting that.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 May 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

lol what

Crit seekers, they aren't. I'm not even sure why you are even suggesting that.

Cause he is correct. That may not be applicable to this game, but for 30 years Crit seeking is what SRMs did best.

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Cause he is correct. That may not be applicable to this game, but for 30 years Crit seeking is what SRMs did best.

He's correct in a system where all critical hits are created equal (since a crit from any weapon is equal to a crit from any other weapon in TT) - the trouble is that in MWO crits are not created equal.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

He's correct in a system where all critical hits are created equal (since a crit from any weapon is equal to a crit from any other weapon in TT) - the trouble is that in MWO crits are not created equal.

Not the fault of the SRM I think.
PGI needs to fix how MW:O crits work as I see it.

[Khobai]

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Why should we use SRMs to hunt crits when high caliber weapons such as PPC and AC20 can destroy crits much more efficiently?

Exactly. Some people have no clue how the crit system works and they just spout nonsense. PPCs, AC10s, AC20s, and Gauss currently crit items better than any other weapons in the game because they can destroy 1-3 items in a single hit to internal structure.

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Cause he is correct. That may not be applicable to this game, but for 30 years Crit seeking is what SRMs did best.

Even in tabletop SRMs were inferior at crit seeking than other weapons, unless you were using tandem charge warheads (which were way overpowered). Streaks were outright better at getting crits because you didnt have to roll on the cluster table to see how many missiles hit. Even the LBXs were better, because they could switch ammo types, and fired more projectiles so rolling on the cluster table was more productive. SRMs were NEVER good weapons in tabletop, except the clan SRMs because they were half the weight.

Even so this discussion is irrelevant, because the role of SRMs in MWO isnt crit seeking. The role of SRMs in MWO is to give medium mechs some lightweight punch at the cost of range. Weak SRMs hurt medium mechs more than any other weight class and thats a fact.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Fatal25]

Piloting an Atlas DC you get 3 missle hard points. I made a skirmisher and put 3 srm 6 on it. A few months ago the srm6 was doing what it was supposed to do. I would soften up the target with AC/Lasers and get in close with the 18 shot srm and usually kill the mech or at least nearly kill it. After the last patch they seem to be back to doing the right damage, but they are not hitting where I see them hit. More than once I have alpha struck a medium or heavy mech (roughly 66 pts) and followed up with 18 more srm to their back just to have them turn and start to fight me. No way that should happen at 20m from the back with the sights firmly on their rear CT. There is obviously still an issue, I think it is more hit detection than damage per missle though. If I try the same thing to the back of a mech with my 2 ac20 jagermech they may not die instantly, but their lifespan is very short after that. (it would be fun to knock a mech over like in the old days with 2 ac20)

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not the fault of the SRM I think.
PGI needs to fix how MW:O crits work as I see it.

It could go either way. For instance, we could change how crits work, or we could give SRMs a crazy crit damage multiplier (such as was done for MG's and LBX)

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

While I don't necessarily subscribe to increasing damage per missile to 3, I would simply reject nerfing SRMs outright on Paul's whims. I mean, it's not as if a weapon system was crippled for over a year (well, pulse lasers and flamers are at the top of that list) and brawling is generally non-existent until "cleanup" happens.

cdlord, on 28 May 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

SRMs are supposed to be at 2 damage per missile. The issue lies in hit detection. If the damn things hit when they were supposed to, we wouldn't have an issue. They are supposed to be a spread damage weapon (like the LBX).

If we had missiles with guidance, they would indeed be at 2 damage. But since PGI removed all guidance, we should be getting extra payload for that tonnage lost, hence the dead-fire missiles.

Those do 3 damage instead of 2. Streaks could even stay at 2.5 with that logic.


Honestly, we have a choice here. Nerf the long range weapons to get into line with the short range weapons, or buff the short range weapons to not be garbage.

Either works, really.

[Khobai]

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Honestly, we have a choice here. Nerf the long range weapons to get into line with the short range weapons, or buff the short range weapons to not be garbage.

Paul just said in devblog #4 that autocannon range is getting nerfed, presumably to x2 across the board.

[Bagheera]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

You forgot the SRM wave pattern spread we used to have. Good players took advantage of that and fired at certain distance so most missiles will hit one location.

**** I miss that pattern so much.

Look, I'm not going to say no to a dmg increase, but that's not necessarily going to help. All a dmg increase would do is make them a niche weapon that people cry about when they die to one suddenly, and we'll be back to nerfing them and useless SRMs for another year or more.

Here's what SRMs need:

1. Fix the ******* hit detection. Seriously. Guys, it's 2014. In this year a game of this age should not have issues with HD as bad as this one does.

2. Go back to the undulating flight path so players who are paying attention can get tight groupings, while snap-shots and average use will have more of a spread.

3. Increase flight speed.

4. Set max range somewhere between 300-350m.

Artgathan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

It could go either way. For instance, we could change how crits work, or we could give SRMs a crazy crit damage multiplier (such as was done for MG's and LBX)

Please, no.

Edited by Bagheera, 28 May 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Artgathan]

Bagheera, on 28 May 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

Please, no.

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought that would be a good idea (or even one I liked) - just that it was an option if SRMs are truly meant to be "crit seeking weapons" (which are useless in MWO as crits are relatively unimportant).

[YueFei]

Reitrix, on 28 May 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

And have back the old one shot Splatcat from CB? No thanks. 6x SRM6 with a tight enough spread to only hit a CT at 90~ means they'd be hitting center mass with at least 80% of the missiles from its optimal range of 270.

Nope. Do the math with the subtended angles. At 90 meters, a 4-meter-wide CT subtends 2.5 degrees. Making ASRM fly within a cone 2.5 degrees wide means that at 250 meters it will cover an area nearly 11 meters wide.

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You do realize that Six SRM6's is 108 damage in a single salvo if they went with your plan, right? Two salvos to blow an Atlas to pieces. No thanks. If the damage was ever moved to 3, they'd need to WIDEN the spread.

You're making claims without actually doing the math, as can be seen by your false claim that a tightened spread that results in 100% hits on CT at 90 meters will result in 80% hits on CT at 270. That's factually wrong. You're arguing from emotions, not from logic.

The solution for anyone who doesn't want to get two-shotted by massed SRMs is the same solution for people who don't want to get killed by pinpoint FLD from PPC+AC. Move laterally, torso twist to shield instead of staring down an enemy, force the shooter to aim into thin air to hit you, messing up his convergence. You realize that if you're not squared-up on someone, even if you aren't fully twisted 90 degrees, makes your torso sections skinnier just by being at an oblique angle, and will spread the damage, right?

Players *should* be afraid of anyone who pops up on them at point-blank range of SRMs. They should be fearful of it to the point where they'll actually *move* and reposition to maintain range when they see someone packing SRMs headed in their direction.

[Mister Blastman]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Paul just said in devblog #4 that autocannon range is getting nerfed, presumably to x2 across the board.

LOL

Oh boy, nerfing autocannon range. That will do NOTHING to fix the balance we have currently.

Most engagements occur between 200 - 600 meters. This is where the pinpoint meta excels. Bringing in the range will still make it optimal in that range.

But... once again... tweaking useless values. I am not surprised at all.

[Bagheera]

Artgathan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

I didn't mean to suggest that I thought that would be a good idea (or even one I liked) - just that it was an option if SRMs are truly meant to be "crit seeking weapons" (which are useless in MWO as crits are relatively unimportant).

Fair enough.

The thing is that "crit seeking" is sort of a fool's errand in MW:O - outside of a few edge cases where mechs can boat MGs and actually bring them to bear in the right situation - mostly FSRs or other fast mechs with 4MGs minimum. 6MG Jagers are fun and all - trust me I trolled the hell out of one during PPCmageddon when MGs were originally crit-buffed but it only worked because of the pair of ER-PPCs and the state of PPCs at the time. Realistically speaking it's too much mech to dedicate to "crit-seeking" and not quick/diminutive enough to really make effective use of the tactic like an FSR can.

For everything else outside those edge cases it's literally almost always faster to either destroy a section outright, or use a weapon that will automatically destroy something when a crit is scored, which means Gauss, AC20, AC10, or PPC.

The game needs SRMs that are effective, not edge-case niche weapons. IMNSHO, naturally, but I like my rocket-shotgun SRM racks

Reitrix, on 28 May 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

And have back the old one shot Splatcat from CB? No thanks. 6x SRM6 with a tight enough spread to only hit a CT at 90~ means they'd be hitting center mass with at least 80% of the missiles from its optimal range of 270.

There is literally nothing that PGI will do to SRMs that will bring back the "old one shot splatcat from CB." Ever. That was the result of a broken splash mechanic which caused SRM damage to increase exponentially when grouped. Stop, just please stop spreading this fallacy. SRMs have been a sub-standard system with broken hit detection for over a year. It needs to be fixed.

Edited by Bagheera, 28 May 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Artgathan]

Bagheera, on 28 May 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Fair enough.

The thing is that "crit seeking" is sort of a fool's errand in MW:O - outside of a few edge cases where mechs can boat MGs and actually bring them to bear in the right situation - mostly FSRs or other fast mechs with 4MGs minimum. 6MG Jagers are fun and all - trust me I trolled the hell out of one during PPCmageddon when MGs were originally crit-buffed but it only worked because of the pair of ER-PPCs and the state of PPCs at the time. Realistically speaking it's too much mech to dedicate to "crit-seeking" and not quick/diminutive enough to really make effective use of the tactic like an FSR can.

For everything else outside those edge cases it's literally almost always faster to either destroy a section outright, or use a weapon that will automatically destroy something when a crit is scored, which means Gauss, AC20, AC10, or PPC.

The game needs SRMs that are effective, not edge-case niche weapons. IMNSHO, naturally, but I like my rocket-shotgun SRM racks

I completely agree.

One approach that I've long thought would be interesting is to have reduced critical damage for certain weapons (IE: when they start hitting exposed internals they do less damage). This would really force players to bring varied loadouts (or coordinate team loadouts to cover weaknesses), or else risk having their damage potential severely gimped once a mech's armor comes off.

Just a thought.

[YueFei]

Mmm, I just went over my own proposal again, and would like to revise it.

My goal was to make SRMs kill things dead twice as fast as AC5 at 90 meters. Currently it kills about 23.4% faster. SRM damage efficiency is about 65% of damage landing on the desired hitbox at 90 meters.

Tightening spread to get 100% of it on target at 90 meters when using Artemis is an increase in damage on target of 52%. Then, if SRMs were changed to 3 damage per missile, that is another increase of 50%. Combining these would make SRMs kill 2.8 times faster than AC5.

That goes overboard past my intended goal. If we still make the spread tighter so it can be more effective at longer ranges, then damage per missile can be increased to 2.5, a 25% increase, and SRMs will kill 2.3 times faster than AC5 at 90 meters.

Then non-Artemis spread can be adjusted as needed. There will be a cross-over point along the range band where non-Artemis SRM gain an advantage in effective damage per tonnage once you get close enough, and farther away than that the Artemis-equipped SRMs would have the advantage.

[YueFei]

Tahribator, on 28 May 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

It's not a matter of skill with "twisting with AC5s". At 1.66 seconds per reload, there just isn't any time to twist a decent amount and aim again. It's just not practical and you would be bringing down your DPS. If you watch JagerXII and other poptart dudes, they just stare at their target and dump a decent amount of rounds and then either just disengage, or try to twist away.

You don't see them do it all the time because the situation usually doesn't call for it. Just like they don't always jump to make a shot when it isn't necessary. At long range (or even medium range), engaging a target in a group fight, and if you aren't being shot at by the other team, you just stare down and keep firing. If you are being focused on, at that distance, you're just going to seek cover.

But in a close-range fight where there is no cover available? Yeah, I've seen top players twist, shoot, twist, shoot, within the span of the AC5 cooldown.

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If SRMs actually registered, you would actually be seeing those. Tournament teams don't want to leave the matters into the hitreg gods, so they just take the safe route with ACs/PPCs and lasers. ACs and SRM combos offer superior survivability at close range to those alternatives. At the moment, they're trying to reach this survivability with high damage/low ROF weapons like AC20s.

You might be right about it being a hitreg issue for those teams rather than a straight damage or mechanics issue with SRMs, but my prediction is that when SRM gets HSR fixes put in, they will still underperform. I am not fully convinced that the improved ability to shield due to longer cycle time and higher alpha damage can be turned into a full advantage because of the vastly reduced heat efficiency. In a fangs-out locked-jaws fight to the death, the SRM user probably overheats before the AC5 user.

I mean, how often do you get to start a fight at 90 meters on a stationary target in a real match? And that target is an Awesome? And there is no lag or HSR problems? And then SRMs just barely outperform an AC5 in TTK, and lose out in every other category?

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

SRMs were never a tight missile spread though. they were more like 2 point crit seekers.

I'm fine with that really, any of the tweaks I've mentioned would be a good way to start on testing.

If the spread is too tight, suddenly they are 12 tons for AC40 (28 tons) Jager levels of damage. That's not the direction we need to go either.

Fix HitReg, increase the flight speed and then let's see how they are at that point.

[Almond Brown]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Strange, then why can i boat 4 AC5s and core a full hp Atlas from 620 meters in 13.28 seconds, and not have to worry about overheating to boot?

Because that particular Atlas Pilot was either AFK... or brain dead.

[Murzao]

SRMs should be 2.5/missile period. You should be rewarded for getting in under 100m at their optimal range. At 270m they are inferior to every other weapon and especially so at 280m. Their short range was the balancing into itself.

Splattcats were easy kills for the truly deadly 3ASRM6 Cent lol stay at 200m and rip his face off while he gently sandpapers you.