95 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

TT has no recharge time per-say.

Well... 10 seconds...



(unlike four for the PPC that we have here in this game)

[Thanatos676]

Another nerf on the Gauss rifle..No

It is where it should be with the charge up time, it does not need to be nerfed again...

[Koniving]

Felio, on 28 May 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

30 pinpoint damage at short, medium or long range with the fastest projectile in the game is too much.

Yes, gauss rifles weigh a lot, so it doesn't leave much room for other things. Yes, it is low DPS if you get up and brawl with them. It doesn't matter. Getting nailed with 30 instant damage to a single location without making any mistakes -- because be honest, the first shot a sniper gets is usually a free one -- is a very negative experience.

There is plenty of time while one gauss rifle is cooling down to charge and fire the other. It would still be very effective for sniping. It just wouldn't have that "I got ganked by a cheap shot" feeling.

Okay, lets try this...

In 5.5 under perfect conditions a single gauss rifle does 30 damage. (But it won't do '45' until 10.25 seconds)
In 8 seconds an AC/20 does 60 damage. (In 4 seconds AC/20 did 40 damage).
In 8.3 seconds a large pulse laser does 31.8 damage.
In 9.5 seconds, a large laser does 27 damage.
In approximately 10 seconds, an AC/5 does 30 damage.
In approximately 10 seconds, an AC/2 does 32 to 34 damage.
In 8 seconds exactly, a PPC or ER PPC does 30 damage.
In 8 seconds exactly, a Clan ER PPC does 45 damage.
In 10 seconds exactly, an AC/10 does 50 damage.
In 10 seconds exactly, an LB-10x does 50 damage.
In roughly 10 seconds, an Ultra AC/20 will do between 120 and 140 damage.
In 9 seconds, a medium laser does 15 damage.
In 7.8 seconds, a medium pulse laser does 18 damage.
In approximately 9.75 to 10.5 seconds, a Clan ER ML will do 21 damage.

(Slight math fix).
These are all single weapons by themselves.
You're worried about the Gauss Rifle, which is supposed to be the most powerful single shot weapon in the Inner Sphere arsenal (of the ones currently available to us)?
AC/20s aren't even supposed to be single shots for full damage.

Among these, the Gauss Rifle and lasers are among the most balanced weapons in the game.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

TT has no recharge time per-say.

They do, though - they play no role in the base game, but can be extrapolated from companion products.

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Livewyr, on 28 May 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Here's an interesting idea I've been throwing out there for a long time now:
Increase the Cool-Downs of all longer range weapons!!!!!!

(Guass to 7-8 seconds, PPCs to 6-7.. ERLL to 5 seconds..etc)

That way, if they want to mount just long range weapons, they're good at long range, and poor at short range (by being straight out-DPS'd by short range weapons.)

I think that would solve a lot of problems. (Including discouraging the super Juicy Dire wolf's Triple Gauss Rifle.)

I agree with the principle of extended recycle times.
Though, I have an alternate proposal for the actual values used.

Quote

Category 1 ("Delay 0" - 0.0 to 2.5 seconds)

• MG
  
• AMS
  
• AC/2

Category 2 ("Delay 1" - 2.5 to 5.0 seconds)

• Flamer
  
• Small Laser
  
• Medium Laser
  
• Small Pulse Laser
  
• AC/5
  
• AC/10
  
• LB 10-X
  
• UAC/5
  
• SRM-2
  
• SRM-4
  
• SRM-6
  
• SSRM-2
  
• Narc

Category 3 ("Delay 2" - 5.0 to 7.5 seconds)

• Large Laser
  
• Medium Pulse Laser
  
• AC/20
  
• Gauss Rifle
  
• LRM-5
  
• LRM-10
  
• LRM-15
  
• LRM-20

Category 4 ("Delay 3" - 7.5 to 10.0 seconds)

• PPC
  
• ER PPC
  
• ER Large Laser
  
• Large Pulse Laser

Under the Solaris rules, PPCs and ER-PPCs (along with ERLLs and LPLs) would have had a cooldown between 7.5 and 10.0 seconds (versus 4.0 seconds for MWO).

Personally, I would have preferred if they had actually used the 'Mech Duel Rules as a general guide for cooldowns.
For example, just looking at the Category 4, we could have had something like this:

• LPL - ~7.5 second cooldown
  
• ERLL - ~8.0 second cooldown
  
• PPC - ~9.0 second cooldown
  
• ER-PPC - ~9.5 second cooldown

Likewise, we could have used variation within the above categories to do something like (for example):

• giving the AC/20 a ~5.5-second cooldown (for an average of 3.63 DPS and 1.27 HPS), and giving the Gauss Rifle a ~7.25-second cooldown (for an average of 2.07 DPS and 0.14 HPS), or
  
• giving the AC/5 (and UAC/5) a ~2.75-second cooldown (for an average of 1.82 DPS (or 3.63 DPS for a double-fire UAC/5) and 0.36 HPS (or 0.73 HPS for a double-fire UAC/5)) and giving the AC/10 (and LB 10-X) a ~3.75-second cooldown (for an average of 2.67 DPS (for both the AC/10 and the LB 10-X), and 0.80 HPS for the AC/10 & 0.53 HPS for the LB 10-X), or
  
• giving the AC/2 a ~1.25-second cooldown (for an average of 1.60 DPS and 0.80 HPS) and leave the MG where it is (firing ten 0.10-damage bullets per second, for an average of 1.0 DPS).

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Yeah....why does a PPC recycle at the same rate as the AC20, SRM6 and ML?

My guess is likely that it's where Paul wants it from a strict DPS calculation - I haven't sat down and worked it out but my guess is that it's also partially based on tonnage.

So while it has the same RoF, it has a DPS that is lower than every available Autocannon on a 1 vs 1 basis.

Strictly speaking on tonnage, it also has a much lower DPS than any available SRM.

In fact, 2 tons of MLAS = same DPS as 1 7 Ton PPC.


That's likely the way the RoFs were derived, and for overall playability, because to be honest anything longer than 4s is going to be pretty extreme for most weapons - and I simply disagree with the consistent assertion that having a good range makes the weapon a long range weapon.

Assault rifles don't shoot slower, just because they have better range than handguns.

[verybad]

Sorry, but Gauss aren't top tier.That would be like.this.If anything, gauss could use a bit of a buff.


Nerfing the gauss further would be stupid.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

My guess is likely that it's where Paul wants it from a strict DPS calculation - I haven't sat down and worked it out but my guess is that it's also partially based on tonnage.

So while it has the same RoF, it has a DPS that is lower than every available Autocannon on a 1 vs 1 basis.

Strictly speaking on tonnage, it also has a much lower DPS than any available SRM.

In fact, 2 tons of MLAS = same DPS as 1 7 Ton PPC.


That's likely the way the RoFs were derived, and for overall playability, because to be honest anything longer than 4s is going to be pretty extreme for most weapons - and I simply disagree with the consistent assertion that having a good range makes the weapon a long range weapon.

Assault rifles don't shoot slower, just because they have better range than handguns.

It's more the fact it's a particle cannon which takes time to charge, same as the gauss rifle with the capacitors. I suppose the argument could be used against lasers, but I don't feel like debating that.

You can't charge those very quickly. They have the advantage of FLD (which ACs are not supposed to have) and have long range, which could easily be controlled by a longer cooldown, so IF the short range weapons can close, they will have the advantage. As it stands, a single PPC is arguably better than 2 SRM6s.

[Foxwalker]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

May happen? It WILL happen. Pinpoint damage is king. Its the one thing you can count on always happening. Players will always gravitate towards pinpoint damage because it kills mechs way faster than anything else. This isnt baseless speculation. Its going to happen plain and simple based on past and current trends. Builds that do 50+ pinpoint damage simply cannot be allowed to exist.

OK, cool, but when or as you say will (still in the future) happens, then make a change to address. Dependant on how the issue presents, can determine how it should be delt with.

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Ok but thats you. Personally Im willing to deal with the charge up mechanic if it means doing 50 damage to one location with my Daishi/Mauler. I cant be the only person that sees this as a problem?

I have not seen the Mauler discussed as an option yet (I could have missed it). Since the Clan Mechs are not here yet that is also a guess. From what I understand, Clan Mechs, will not be able to load or change weapons the same way as Inner Sphere Mechs. They will have interchangeable Arms?

But I do agree with you, a pinpoint 50 damage alpha would be bad for the game. I have seen some using the 3 Gauss IIya, and if it was not a very fragile blown glass cannon, it would be more than just good for a laugh.

Edited by Foxwalker, 28 May 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[verybad]

Foxwalker, on 28 May 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

I have not seen the Mauler discussed as an option yet (I could have missed it). Since the Clan Mechs are not here yet that is also a guess. From what I understand, Clan Mechs, will not be able to load or change weapons the same way as Inner Sphere Mechs. They will have interchangeable Arms?

But I do agree with you, a pinpoint 50 damage alpha would be bad for the game. I have seen some using the 3 Gauss IIya, and if it was not a very fragile blown glass cannon, it would be more than just good for a laugh.

If it were so good, (Ilya) then it would be prominent in the game already. It's not.

[Khobai]

Quote

Clan Mechs, will not be able to load or change weapons the same way as Inner Sphere Mechs. They will have interchangeable Arms?

Clan mechs can swap arms and side torsos from among any variants you own. The center torso determines the base variant.

So you could have a Daishi Prime as your center torso, Daishi B side torsos, and Daishi Prime arms and youd end up with a Daishi Prime with 6 ballistic hardpoints and 8 energy hardpoints.

Obviously thats a problem because of builds like x5 uac5, x4 uac10, x3 uac20 etc... but also allows for extreme pinpoint damage builds like x3 gauss/x1 erppc or x2 gauss/x2 erppc. These builds are capable of doing at least 50-55 pinpoint damage if not more.

Quote

But I do agree with you, a pinpoint 50 damage alpha would be bad for the game. I have seen some using the 3 Gauss IIya, and if it was not a very fragile blown glass cannon, it would be more than just good for a laugh.

Right but the Ilya has to strip off a lot of armor to fit x3 gauss, making it purely a troll build. Conversely, the Daishi can fit loadouts like x3 gauss/x1 erppc (55+ pinpoint) and still have max armor. Not only that but it has enough DHS to fire all its weapons almost non-stop.

Quote

I have not seen the Mauler discussed as an option yet

The Mauler is an upcoming 90 ton IS assault mech. It can do builds like x2 Gauss/x2 PPC or x4 AC5/x2 PPC. Again both these builds exceed the commonly accepted balance threshold of 30 pinpoint damage.

WIth the addition of ballistic assaults like the Daishi/Mauler we simply cant ignore the pinpoint damage potential of multiple gauss rifles and ppcs anymore. A gauss nerf of some kind is inevitable.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Foxwalker]

verybad, on 28 May 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

If it were so good, (Ilya) then it would be prominent in the game already. It's not.

I did not say it was good. I said it is just good for a laugh as it stands. But if you could build one without sacrificing almost all the armor, and speed, you would see them more.

[Agent of Change]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Clan mechs can swap arms and side torsos from among any variants you own. The center torso determines the base variant.

So you could have a Daishi Prime as your center torso, Daishi B side torsos, and Daishi Prime arms and youd end up with a Daishi Prime with 6 ballistic hardpoints and 8 energy hardpoints.

Obviously thats a problem because of builds like x5 uac5, x4 uac10, x3 uac20 etc... but also allows for extreme pinpoint damage builds like x3 gauss/x1 erppc or x2 gauss/x2 erppc. These builds are capable of doing at least 50 pinpoint damage if not more.

I subtly highlighted the relevant part. The buff/nerf cycle in this game is ****** because of cherry picking... and y'know blatantly ignoring the actual problem.

Edited by Agent of Change, 28 May 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

It's more the fact it's a particle cannon which takes time to charge, same as the gauss rifle with the capacitors. I suppose the argument could be used against lasers, but I don't feel like debating that.

Well, it does take time to charge - it takes 4s which is the longest of all Energy weapons.

The issue is that Lasers have a beam duration of 1s, so their faster cycle time actually ends up making them take longer before they can be used again. I don't like that personally, but I'm a proponent of Lasers/Pulse lasers all having their beam duration reduced.

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

You can't charge those very quickly. They have the advantage of FLD (which ACs are not supposed to have) and have long range, which could easily be controlled by a longer cooldown, so IF the short range weapons can close, they will have the advantage. As it stands, a single PPC is arguably better than 2 SRM6s.

To be honest, I feel it very much depends on the "short ranged" weapon in particular.

An MLAS is compensated by the fact that it only weighs 1 ton, only takes up 1 crit slot. 4 tons of these do as much damage as 14 tons of PPCs or 14 tons or Large Pulse Lasers for the same or lower heat. They also do as much damage as 14 tons of AC 20. They also have the same or better DPS than all of them.

That's their advantage.

Does that mean nothing should be tweaked? Hardly.

Beam duration is the first place I'd go to for MLAS, and I also think their heat can come down a touch (along with the heat of MPLs).


SRMs are a whole other issue (or host of issues, really) - aside from Hit Reg, personally I think their 270m range is basically a lie.

They need much faster missile speed.


It's possible after those two fixes they may even need tighter spread, or higher damage per missile or lower heat per use.

If those aspects were implemented better, suddenly their effective damage per ton skyrockets and their advantage is clear.


Outside of MLAS and SRMs, which other "short range" weapons are we comparing PPCs vs?

[Gas Guzzler]

Instead of nerfing FLD weapons, why don't we try to give other weapons an advantage? So it's like, you know, a tradeoff.

Yes everyone talks about the Dire Wolf, but that thing is limited to 48.6 kph!! What is that like 53-54 with speed tweak? Also, you realize the stock Dire Wolf Prime is going to rock essentially a 74 pt alpha, not including its LRM 10. Any way you slice it, that thing is going to one shot many things.

[Jonathan Paine]

The gauss is currently in a weird place: troublesome and less than useful if you have 1, murder if you boat 2. Several "top tier" players are already using two gauss + 1 ER PPC for the sweet 40 pin point potential. So yes, future mechs with 2 gauss + 2 ppcs will be instant meta. Mechs with enough weight to handle 3+ Gauss will be quite overpowered.

How do we solve that? Increased cool down will not bring your one-shotted mech back from the dead. Recall the days of 6 PPC boating? Not like a non-lethal cool down dissuaded anyone.

So: GET RID OF PINPOINT DAMAGE

[Foxwalker]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Clan mechs can swap arms and side torsos from among any variants you own. The center torso determines the base variant.

So you could have a Daishi Prime as your center torso, Daishi B side torsos, and Daishi Prime arms and youd end up with a Daishi Prime with 6 ballistic hardpoints and 8 energy hardpoints.

Obviously thats a problem because of builds like x5 uac5, x4 uac10, x3 uac20 etc... but also allows for extreme pinpoint damage builds like x3 gauss/x1 erppc or x2 gauss/x2 erppc. These builds are capable of doing at least 50 pinpoint damage if not more.



Right but the Ilya has to strip off a lot of armor to fit x3 gauss, making it purely a troll build. Conversely, the Daishi can fit loadouts like x3 gauss/x1 erppc and still have max armor. Not only that but it has enough DHS to fire all its weapons almost non-stop.

You are assuming you can change the Weapons like Inner Sphere. We know the Engines are not changeable. Have they said you could swap the weapons if the Hardpoints are present? Again, I may have missed it. If not that is still speculation.

[FupDup]

Foxwalker, on 28 May 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

You are assuming you can change the Weapons like Inner Sphere. We know the Engines are not changeable. Have they said you could swap the weapons if the Hardpoints are present? Again, I may have missed it. If not that is still speculation.

The only things that are locked to an Omnimech are any items present on the base configuration. I.e. the base Puma has a CT Flamer, so that CT Flamer must be used on every Puma config ever made. For most weapons, however, they are simply added on top of the hardwired equipment, which means that they will be removable.

Edited by FupDup, 28 May 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[Foxwalker]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

The only things that are locked to an Omnimech are any items present on the base configuration. I.e. the base Puma has a CT Flamer, so that CT Flamer must be used on every Puma config ever made. For most weapons, however, they are simply added on top of the hardwired equipment, which means that they will be removable.

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

The only things that are locked to an Omnimech are any items present on the base configuration. I.e. the base Puma has a CT Flamer, so that CT Flamer must be used on every Puma config ever made. For most weapons, however, they are simply added on top of the hardwired equipment, which means that they will be removable.

If you can show me where you saw that, cool. As before I don't disagree that 45, 50 or greater Alphas are bad. I sometimes run a Commando, and have experienced the Dual Gauss or Dual AC20 instant death it causes with a single shot.

I cannot image PGI allowing that happening long with configurations that could do that to nearly every Mech in the game.

Thanks!

[RealityCube]

Don't nerf my favorite ballistic weapon, which is already in severe disrepair.

[FupDup]

Foxwalker, on 28 May 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

If you can show me where you saw that, cool. As before I don't disagree that 45, 50 or greater Alphas are bad. I sometimes run a Commando, and have experienced the Dual Gauss or Dual AC20 instant death it causes with a single shot.

I cannot image PGI allowing that happening long with configurations that could do that to nearly every Mech in the game.

Thanks!

The Command Chair post containing the currently known way PGI is going to handle Omnimech rules is here: http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/

It doesn't explicitly say you can change out weapons, but it's pretty strongly implied. For example, what would the purpose of exchanging hardpoints between variants be, if we weren't allowed to customize guns? Also, one of the core aspects of Mechwarrior games is being able to tweak your loadouts. Having every aspect of your robot permalocked might not please a lot of people. Why wouldn't we be allowed to change weapons?