95 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

On a side note: OLD Gauss Rifle technology.

That was the Mach 7.

The Mach 10 has been around for a long time.
It isn't much different compared to what gets mounted into the mech, except it's about 5 tons lighter than the mach 10 and quite a bit smaller with a smaller and more efficient power source; which it only uses a fraction of the power on (which is partially why its range is low, that and hitting something that is moving from a machine that is walking and moving as well isn't anywhere near as easy as MWO makes it out to be).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Koniving, on 28 May 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

On a side note: OLD Gauss Rifle technology.

That was the Mach 7.

The Mach 10 has been around for a long time.
It isn't much different compared to what gets mounted into the mech, except it's about 5 tons lighter than the mach 10 and quite a bit smaller with a smaller and more efficient power source; which it only uses a fraction of the power on (which is partially why its range is low, that and hitting something that is moving from a machine that is walking and moving as well isn't anywhere near as easy as MWO makes it out to be).

I want one of those lol =D


Oh, and look, it doesnt appear to have a "charge up" mechanic...and this in 2011.....2014...

MW is what? 3050? And we would take a step backwards nad suddenly need a charging mechanic?

Get
The
F....
Out....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 28 May 2014 - 09:43 PM.

[Koniving]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 May 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

^^Kon, what ever happened to being able to knock mechs down in this game?

I know in Beta we could do so.

THe light guys cry to much that being hammered by a hail storm of fire and being knocked down meant they died to easily?

After all, the point of a light mech is to avoid fire, not run head long into it cuz you can avoid 8/10 shots fired ur way.

But 2 damage in 10 seconds of fire? 7dmg in 10 seconds? For a weapon that sucks up that much space? Requires that much ammo......no friggin thank you lol.

One thing to remember is that from Battletech, an Atlas typically had 304 armor and maxed at 306 points of armor. Not 608 and maxing at 612. Meaning they were a lot more dangerous. Not to mention most mechs didn't have max armor. It was as financially inconceivable as every American owning their own jet. Then weapon change-outs took up to several months and was usually a shoddy patch job with problems like EM Interference or a Faulty Cooling Jacket.

Ammunition is scarcely limited at all. In MWO a ton of ammo gets 75 shots, equal to 75 uses. In BattleTech, 1 ton of AC/2 ammunition is 45 'uses'. The Blackjack carries two Whirlwind-L Autocannon/2s in either arm for long range, direct fire support. While these autocannons provide excellent reach and were sufficient for combating mostly non-'Mech insurgents, they lacked the firepower to deal with well-armored targets. Both weapons are fed from a single ton of ammo located within the center torso.

Remember an AC/2 had only 45 "ratings" per ton, in this case a single 'rating' was 10 shots. This meant for a single ton of ammunition it had 450 rounds. The mech was made to fight infantry, vehicles, things of that nature.

For most battlemechs, 80% or more of their enemies are not even mechs. They are tanks, infantry, jeeps with machine guns, things of that nature. Know how games set in the Middle East have insurgents with RPGs? Here they have man-portable SRM launchers.

Btw SRMs were worth something. Sure they reloaded slow as heck but they 1) were homing, 2) didn't require a lock (they went after heat), and 3) did 2 damage right on the spot (where a 120mm AC round does 1.67 damage rounded up). That SRM-2 on a Shadowhawk wasn't a joke; it made incredible sense (since its 80mm AC/5 only did 0.5 damage per shot and couldn't hit things up close).

Lasers depending on manufacturers did different levels of damage. Front loaded, a single ML regardless of how many heatsinks you have, 10% heat. A single PPC, 33.33% heat. An ER PPC, 50% heat. (Note shutdown risks begin at slightly over 40%. Ammuntion explosion risks begin getting really nasty above 50%). 4 AC/2s fired non-stop for 10 seconds? [for the 30mm AC/2 the Blackjack uses; that's 40 shots] would be a wimpy 13.33% heat, except so long as you weren't moving you'd never see it get above 2% heat. Ever. Even if you only had 6 standard heatsinks and fired them dry. Of course all heatsinks cooled faster (because our threshold was so low).

Far as what happened to knockdowns..

See here

and here at 6:18 (poor guy)

Also here.


And if you get nostalgic..

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2014 - 10:57 PM.

[Coralld]

Koniving, on 28 May 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

On a side note: OLD Gauss Rifle technology.

That was the Mach 7.

The Mach 10 has been around for a long time.
It isn't much different compared to what gets mounted into the mech, except it's about 5 tons lighter than the mach 10 and quite a bit smaller with a smaller and more efficient power source; which it only uses a fraction of the power on (which is partially why its range is low, that and hitting something that is moving from a machine that is walking and moving as well isn't anywhere near as easy as MWO makes it out to be).

Its a Rail gun, not a Gauss.

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 May 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

I want one of those lol =D


Oh, and look, it doesnt appear to have a "charge up" mechanic...and this in 2011.....2014...

MW is what? 3050? And we would take a step backwards nad suddenly need a charging mechanic?

Get
The
F....
Out....

Fun fact. The weapon had to be loaded first before its capacitors could be charged for safety reasons. Also, a Rail/Gauss weapon produces a sh*t ton of heat. So you want to talk about things not making sense? Here's one for you. A electromagnetic weapon producing only 1 heat makes no sense.

<- Former GA employee.

[Koniving]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 May 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

MW is what? 3050? And we would take a step backwards nad suddenly need a charging mechanic?

That weapon in the video required an entire nuclear power plant; on the ship there's a nuclear power plant large enough to power Las Vegas. The engines on mechs are nuclear powered but not nearly that efficient.

---------

When Kerensky shook his head and left ashamed of the Monarchies of the Inner Sphere, he took the entire Star League Defense Force with him.

Picture Star Trek. Now imagine if the Federation took all of its ships, its alien races, etc., and said "Screw you Earth" shortly after transporting most of the good stuff up and blasting any factories along the way?

Most battlemechs are between 10 to 300 years old, just constantly salvaged and reused. After 2500s (26th century) and before the 2700s (28th century), they could do everything seen here. Keep in mind there were mechs that could turn into jets, chuck grenades, and they typically carried "rifles"


To mention it, the Ingrams in this video are 6.2 tons. The 6 to 8 ton size of Industrial mechs and Protomechs is around this range. They also happen to be around this size.

As Ota says, "By the time I can line up and fire a shot, they've fired a hundred at me!" That is akin to Autocannons versus "Rifles". Yes, a Heavy Rifle did 9 damage in a single shot (against the armor now it's 6), but it took over 2 seconds to aim it and 7 seconds to get it ready to fire again! It consumed both hands. Not very useful even with that kind of firepower. Heavy Autocannons didn't do as much damage as the Heavy Rifle, but with the 190mm Heavy Rifle's 6 damage against the Chemjet's 4 shots of 5 damage in the same time frame, would you ever use a single shot ballistic weapon again? No one with money would.

The heavy influence of shows like Patlabor, Robotech, even the comic series Ghost in the Shell, etc. can be seen throughout the designs. Industrial mechs are direct results of Patlabor, which soon got implemented into the lore thereafter.

Of course all of these abilities were through the neural helmets which were large and invasive, not allowing head movement and came at the cost of mass insanity and for some becoming 'mindless' maniacs before even reaching 30 years old. Many pilots had to be 'put down' when they began showing signs. Eventually as Autocannons were invented, the need for advanced controls dwindled and they reduced what the neural helmet could do. Then that tech simply became lost after Exodus.

After Operation Exodus, most of the technology became quite rare. Over the next 50 years or so, Comstar, being the 'Illuminati' of this universe, collected every piece of advanced tech for itself. Everyone else for the upcoming centuries began to 'sink' technologically. Between the years it takes to get from system to system and the constant fighting leading to constant destruction, it wasn't until after 3000 that anyone developed any real new technologies.

Problem is, most of it wasn't new, but 'reinventing' old technologies that they had lost.

Edited by Koniving, 28 May 2014 - 10:43 PM.

[Koniving]

Coralld, on 28 May 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

Its a Rail gun, not a Gauss.

Similar concept. One has sliding contacts producing electrical current through the projectile which then interacts with the magnets.
A Gauss weapon has multiple coils along the barrel to accelerate the projectile. Because there are no sliding contacts, there is no wear and tear.

But ultimately the same premise.

And yes, they generate a lot of heat.

"1" heat for its use. Yes it's a bit rediculous, but the technology didn't exist (or wasn't public) back then so there wasn't much to balance it with.
The AC's 1 heat is for enough tank rounds to decimate 3 21st century tanks. (AC/5, 120mm)
The lasers generate quite a bit more heat. And just 1 ER PPC is enough to cause the pilot to pass out if the mech is also moving.

[Coralld]

Koniving, on 28 May 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

Similar concept. One has sliding contacts producing electrical current through the projectile which then interacts with the magnets.
A Gauss weapon has multiple coils along the barrel to accelerate the projectile. Because there are no sliding contacts, there is no wear and tear.

But ultimately the same premise.

And yes, they generate a lot of heat.

"1" heat for its use. Yes it's a bit rediculous, but the technology didn't exist (or wasn't public) back then so there wasn't much to balance it with.
The AC's 1 heat is for enough tank rounds to decimate 3 21st century tanks. (AC/5, 120mm)
The lasers generate quite a bit more heat. And just 1 ER PPC is enough to cause the pilot to pass out if the mech is also moving.

I know its the same premes, hens why I bundled them up together at the end of my post and calling them electromagnetic weapons, which is what they are. Kind of like how all ammunition used by modern fire arms are classified as chemical propelled munitions.

Well aware that back then they had nothing to go by when they brought Gauss into BT. Which is why I believe injecting reality into a game now that we have said tech, even though its only prototypes, is just a foolish idea.

Edited by Coralld, 28 May 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[Koniving]

Coralld, on 28 May 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

I know its the same premes, hens why I bundled them up together at the end of my post and calling them electromagnetic weapons, which is what they are.

This has brought an interesting realization, though.
The Gauss Rifle doesn't have any 'coils' or at least not visible ones. And if it does are they kinda triangular shaped?

I know they certainly know how to 'shed' the coating..

[Tahribator]

Well I kind of support this suggestion. AC40's are pretty much nerfed to very close ranges and slow projectile makes them somewhat easier to resist against. Dual Gauss on the other hand, hits instantly and is very hard to miss with. That's pretty much all that's left from the "tryhard build" category.

[Coralld]

Koniving, on 28 May 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

This has brought an interesting realization, though.
The Gauss Rifle doesn't have any 'coils' or at least not visible ones. And if it does are they kinda triangular shaped?

I know they certainly know how to 'shed' the coating..

I often wonder that as well. But to be honest, I always looked at the electromagnetic weapon in BT/MW as Rails guns, and here is why. Rail guns tend to be more efficient and less cumbersome because if you have a 10ft Rail gun with X amount of power, a Gauss using the same amount of power would require the barrel to be almost 3 times longer in order for said round to have the same Kinetic energy as the one fired from the Rail. That, or greatly increase the amount of power your giving the Gauss, which could cause it to over heat and explode.

Gauss however appears to perform better on smaller scales.

With a better power source and possibly having the rings closer to add more in while having a quicker pulse to go through the barrel could help this thing be more lethal.
There are home made Rail guns out there the same size as this thing (which are only single shot mind you as far as I know, and with better power sources) that are capable of firing something the size of a pea and having it hit with a force of a 38 mag.

Edited by Coralld, 28 May 2014 - 11:25 PM.

[Pjwned]

I would be okay with something like this if gauss rifles had a significantly longer charging window as a result, say 5 seconds (maybe more) before the shot dissipates. I wouldn't want to prevent both guns from charging though, a simple brief window of time before the 2nd gun could fire (say 0.5 seconds) would alleviate the main issue, which is very high pinpoint damage.

Even though I don't want to see gauss rifles nerfed any further really, I do agree that 30 damage on the same component is a little extreme, it should take a little more effort to stay on target or else your damage might be spread out a bit. Before somebody replies asking about poptart meta that's also a problem and it's also being dealt with to an extent

[Vweegit]

I promise you right now - I'm going to run a clan mech that does 50+ pinpoint damage. And if I'm going to do it, you just know most everyone else will, too.

This *is* a problem. Regardless of what the devs do to increase the reload times, you're going to see this one happen. Alot.

The best solution I've seen so far - outside of Agent of Change's idea, which I completely agree with yet fear can never happen - is the suggestion to make the reload times much longer. It, however, ignores the problem of 50+ pinpoint damage. Its not addressing the problem. Believe me, good players are going to mulch you before you can close to short range for a brawl. And don't worry...if they miss you, chances are good that their lancemates won't all miss.

[Strum Wealh]

Koniving, on 28 May 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

On a side note: OLD Gauss Rifle technology.

That was the Mach 7.

The Mach 10 has been around for a long time.
It isn't much different compared to what gets mounted into the mech, except it's about 5 tons lighter than the mach 10 and quite a bit smaller with a smaller and more efficient power source; which it only uses a fraction of the power on (which is partially why its range is low, that and hitting something that is moving from a machine that is walking and moving as well isn't anywhere near as easy as MWO makes it out to be).

Actually, the first known operational examples of large coilguns (aka "Gauss Guns", after German physicist Carl Friedrich Gauss) were built in 1903 under the supervision of a Norwegian physicist named Kristian Birkeland.
Birkeland's "elektriske kanon" was functional, but only had a muzzle velocity of 100 m/s and a range of about 1 kilometer.

Behold the "elektriske kanon", the original Gauss Rifle (which may or may not have actually been rifled...)!





Better than a century later (2006), DARPA published a report in which they state that they're considering a coilgun-based mortar system, while the US Navy tested high-powered railguns (another type of electromagnetic accelerator with vastly different operating principles) at about the same time.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

give the gauss a LONG recharge time and add the hold/charge up the gauss has now to the PPCs.
Walla everything fixed. Even the matchmaker.

[Livewyr]

The Rail Gun always gives me [blank] (I loves it so much..)

(I'm waiting to see what Graphene [capacitors] does for personal rail-gun armament.)

[Alex Warden]

Vweegit, on 29 May 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

I promise you right now - I'm going to run a clan mech that does 50+ pinpoint damage. And if I'm going to do it, you just know most everyone else will, too.

This *is* a problem. Regardless of what the devs do to increase the reload times, you're going to see this one happen. Alot.

The best solution I've seen so far - outside of Agent of Change's idea, which I completely agree with yet fear can never happen - is the suggestion to make the reload times much longer. It, however, ignores the problem of 50+ pinpoint damage. Its not addressing the problem. Believe me, good players are going to mulch you before you can close to short range for a brawl. And don't worry...if they miss you, chances are good that their lancemates won't all miss.

i already told something like that a few back... but back than it was "hype" to bash the "nerfed to death clans"... so i´ve been told to better shut up because i have no clue... we will see