198 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Dracol, on 28 May 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Thank you breaking down the math on this.

IIRC, what brought about ACs doing damage so far past optimal range was the non-realistic feel of having shells just popping out of existence at x2 range.

Personally, I would love to see bullet drop implemented with no limit on ballistic range. AC/20 would drop like a rock after optimal while AC/2 would continue on for a long while. From my understanding though, it would be a large drain on server resources and is most likely non-viable.

Another part of the issue is how PGI opted to implement MWO ACs.

In BattleTech, effectively all examples of most AC types (Standard ACs, LB-X ACs when in "slug mode", Light ACs, and HVACs) are burst fire weapons, firing 3 to 10 smaller individual shells instead of a single large shell; this is explained under the advanced gameplay rules found in Tactical Operations , various TRO entries describing exactly how many shells some ACs fire (e.g. it is explicitly documented in several places that the Marauder's "GM Whirlwind" AC/5 fires a three-round burst), and numerous examples of AC fire found in the BattleTech novels.

If the Standard ACs had been implemented correctly (that is, as burst-fire weapons), then the recoil of the larger ACs' individual shells - and, consequently, the spread of the burst at any given range - could be adjusted (together with variables like muzzle velocity, drop rate, and so on) so that it was substantially more difficult (albeit not necessarily impossible) to land all of the salvo's damage within a specific hitbox at longer ranges (as opposed to spreading the damage over the target, possibly having some of it miss completely), while the smaller ACs' shells would produce less recoil (in addition to different values for variables like muzzle velocity, drop rate, and so on) and consequently be able to more easily land all of the salvo's damage within a specific hitbox at longer ranges.

For that matter, the ACs might have even be able to keep the 3x effective-to-maximum range multiplier if burst spread could have been used to mitigate the accuracy (and, thus, capacity for concentrated damage) of the larger ACs at longer ranges...

[LordKnightFandragon]

Oethe, on 28 May 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Even if they lower heat scale that wouldn't make GR and AC less used, if anything they would be more widely used as you would heat up even faster from all energy weapons.

That has always been the big choice.....do you take large, ammo based Ballistic weapons due to less heat or energy due to no ammo restrictions but increased heat.

Right now, its all just pack on all the big ass guns and shoot the guy in the face. I have a random TT CBT mech sheet in front of me now lol....

and at 5 heat, that is like firing 1 Med Laser, we lose -1 speed. @8 its -1 to accuracy, 10 its -2 speed......

If we start lolphaing dual PPCs and crap, gaining 30 heat, we shut down lol. TT Heat scale just worked.....it could be applied here to some degree, like at 10% heat, we notice a slow down in speed and overall agility of the mech, maybe 2%. At 25% heat we start to have issues with Accuracy, the CoF on the guns starts to get noticeably worse, maybe a 10% reduction in accuracy. Heck, at 19 heat we start to have to roll for ammo explosions. In between there we have shutdown rolls as well....which could also be applied here, low chances for our mechs to randomly shut down due to heat. Ofc id place these, starting at prolly 75% heat.

Would it make Energy weapons harder to use? yeah, ballistic weapons more favorable? sure.

But would keep us from just lolphing everything and needing to nerf all the hard hitting weapons. Also tossed in there could be ammo jams and stuff...so run to hot your ballistics jam up, with a side possibility of your ammo exploding on you.

So it would be, do you run hotter and not worry about ammo pops, or do you pack on a nice trio of AC10s and worry about a possible ammo pop? Cuz even an AC10 deals like 4 heat or something, so even chain firing those will get you some nice shiny heat over time.

Then how does cooling dwon with heatsinks in CBT? Say you have 15 DHS, its 30 heat cooled per round or something? How much time is a single round, or turn supposed to represent? I know in Avalon hill's Squadleader game, a single turn is supposed to be 2 minutes of real time. We could do something like that in this game. We generate the 20 heat, but if we have 30 coolant from heatsinks, we lose that 30 heat over the course of like a few minutes. Maybe increase recharge and reload times on weapons as well.

We can balance and change weapons without always just nerfing their damage and range....

Gauss Rifles, would prolly have a much longer reload then a AC5.....instead of a couple of seconds, maybe 8s for a GR, 10s for an AC20, 7s for an AC10, 4 for an AC5, 3 for an AC2.

PPC get a like 7s recharge, LL get like 5s....ML get like 3s.....

We can slow down RoF and rework the heat scale to really make it harder to just Lolpaha everything. And in TT dont JJ also generate a nice amount of heat?

I get this isnt TT, but PGI coulda and shoulda based this game much more off that game then this hodge podge, random method they use now.

Plus, if we had heat effects, it would make piloting lights harder, you wouldnt just circle jerk a heavy cuz 5 heat, -1 speed, 10 heat, -2 speed. 15 heat, -3 speed. So maybe like a 10% reduction in speed for each time we get reduced? That would make lights manage their weapons and heat better.

Lights would still maintain their speed advantage and could still circle jerk, but they might have a harder time wiht and might, just might need to pair up to do so.

Next, Lights need to be rescaled a little bit closer to their actual size...they are more like the size of a Kanazuchi Assault battlearmor then they are a Mech.

Also, being hit by lasers should generate a small amount of heat as well....idk if that was in TT, but I know in Wizkids board game of Mechwarrior, get hit by lasers, you gain heat and the target gets some heat...which could make lights and energy based weapons useful and unique in that regard. Keep a mech heated up...would give flamers a nice little niche.

I was shot by flamers, didnt notice anything....

[Fatal25]

I agree. I see no reason to nerf the ACs. Most mechs have very few hard points for ballistics or not a realistic amount of weight to carry a significant amount or enough slots. I think they are one of the most balanced weapons in the game. If you want to carry an AC or even two you are going to eat up a ton of weight to equip the weapon and ammo. They also take up a lot of slots so you can probably forget about endo or fibrous, depending on the mech. AC 20 range is already very limited. If I am taking a 2 ac 20 jagermech and pull alpine peaks map I can become useless fast depending where I spawn. Don't lessen the range, leave them alone.

On a side note, I understand some players frustration with 2 ac 20 or double guass jagermechs, but they are cheap mechs you can own one yourself. If you want to carry any ammo at all, have an AMS, or backup med lasers you are going to have to lower your engine or armor. Even though the hit detection and lag are constant issues, the mechlab formulas are spot on and make you spend hours on smurfy trying to figure out the right build. That is half of the fun in my opinion.

[Oethe]

I love the few people saying how this would break mediums, yet it would encourage more ballistics on other loadouts.

Further, Hunchbacks and Centurions always get in my face, doesn't matter if I play a Heavy or an Assault. All they do is run as close as they can and continue trying to use that AC20 on me. So what is this laughable concept that they would be forced to get closer? They seem to have no fear on doing it now.

[Ecrof]

Fatal25, on 28 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

I agree. I see no reason to nerf the ACs. Most mechs have very few hard points for ballistics or not a realistic amount of weight to carry a significant amount or enough slots. I think they are one of the most balanced weapons in the game. If you want to carry an AC or even two you are going to eat up a ton of weight to equip the weapon and ammo. They also take up a lot of slots so you can probably forget about endo or fibrous, depending on the mech. AC 20 range is already very limited. If I am taking a 2 ac 20 jagermech and pull alpine peaks map I can become useless fast depending where I spawn. Don't lessen the range, leave them alone.

On a side note, I understand some players frustration with 2 ac 20 or double guass jagermechs, but they are cheap mechs you can own one yourself. If you want to carry any ammo at all, have an AMS, or backup med lasers you are going to have to lower your engine or armor. Even though the hit detection and lag are constant issues, the mechlab formulas are spot on and make you spend hours on smurfy trying to figure out the right build. That is half of the fun in my opinion.

[wanderer]

Yet again, it's a change that really doesn't address the problem, much like nerfing the Highlander/Victor chassis did nothing really to poptarting.

The problem is, was, and always has been being able to accurately put all your damage into a single spot with front-loaded strikes.

You fix poptarting by making 'Mechs shake in midair. Period. Active jets or not. You're airborne? You spray fire.

You fix AC's by making them burst-fire. Again, it's not rocket science. Weapons that can put their entire big chunk of damage into a target at one point instantly have an immense advantage in MWO. Bonus: You make PPC's "arc" some of their damage as well. Voila. No more auto-30-poptarts.

Then again, considering SRMs, rocket science is beyond their ability to fix properly as well.

[Mcgral18]

wanderer, on 28 May 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Yet again, it's a change that really doesn't address the problem, much like nerfing the Highlander/Victor chassis did nothing really to poptarting.

The problem is, was, and always has been being able to accurately put all your damage into a single spot with front-loaded strikes.

You fix poptarting by making 'Mechs shake in midair. Period. Active jets or not. You're airborne? You spray fire.

You fix AC's by making them burst-fire. Again, it's not rocket science. Weapons that can put their entire big chunk of damage into a target at one point instantly have an immense advantage in MWO. Bonus: You make PPC's "arc" some of their damage as well. Voila. No more auto-30-poptarts.

Then again, considering SRMs, rocket science is beyond their ability to fix properly as well.

No 30 aside from Dual Gauss, which in turn could be restricted to enforced chainfire, due to immense energy drain.

Leave or remove charge, I don't really know.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 May 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[wanderer]

And Gauss have narrower fire windows and strap bombs to your 'Mech, considering the Gaussapult and Gaussjager tend to have big weak points as it stands. I'd put them into the "wait and see" after you fixed AC/PPC's to see how well they end up filling the role.

[Tremendous Upside]

Strum Wealh, on 28 May 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

The AC/20 should not be outperforming the AC/10 so far beyond the latter's optimal range, the AC/10 should not be outperforming the AC/5 so far beyond the latter's optimal range, and AC/5 should not be outperforming the AC/2 so far beyond the latter's optimal range.

This would be a fair statement to make and it makes sense -- IF the weapons all fired on the same delay. There's the problem. While an AC20 shell may do more damage than an AC10 at 500m, it can't fire as often. Beyond around 400-500m max, it's not very effective at all. It's penalized (vs all smaller AC's) in terms of it's size, ammo count, heat generated, projectile speed and firing delay... so trying to bring it's damage per range into line is essentially nerfing it to a much greater degree. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

In the case of the AC20, I see almost no reason whatsoever to carry one after this goes live. It's going to be dead tonnage/space for most of the time in most games, and mechs carrying it as a primary weapon are going to be encouraged even more to play conservatively and hug cover until targets get close. It's precisely that sort of behavior that makes the current LR meta so effective. A cowering, covered mech is one less enemy to deal with - and it makes picking the "peekers" that much easier. It's the AC5/UAC5 that really needed the nerf. Not all ballistic weapons across the board.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Im looking forward to the AC balance. As they stand right now they are a bit OP as far as the range rate of fire heat and dmg they can send down range. The "ammo pre ton" is not a viable balance argument.

[Flaming oblivion]

What worrys me is they haven't touched easy mode till now to keep the bads happy, Now suddenly they balance IS tech just in time for clan tech, How OP is clan going to be I wonder.

[Kassatsu]

Banky, on 28 May 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

In the case of the AC20, I see almost no reason whatsoever to carry one after this goes live. It's going to be dead tonnage/space for most of the time in most games, and mechs carrying it as a primary weapon are going to be encouraged even more to play conservatively and hug cover until targets get close. It's precisely that sort of behavior that makes the current LR meta so effective. A cowering, covered mech is one less enemy to deal with - and it makes picking the "peekers" that much easier. It's the AC5/UAC5 that really needed the nerf. Not all ballistic weapons across the board.

Which is exactly what the intelligent AC20-toting pilots do already (if not just blindly zerg rushing in)? It only penalizes those that like to spam their shots at ridiculous ranges when they have no business trying to deal any reasonable damage to their targets in the first place.

I will agree that those tactics definitely encourage the current meta as popping up over cover for a quarter of a second and unloading your 30+ pinpoint alpha strike for practically no heat while the enemy is barely even able to line up a shot on you is far better than taking 5+ seconds to peek around a corner and back up.

As for the whole 7 shot per ton ammo argument from somebody else: Never really piloted an AC20 mech have you? I ran a hunchback for a while (with like THREE whole tons of ammo!) and very rarely ran out of ammo because I made sure to only fire shots that were all but guaranteed to hit. Tried the same on a shadowhawk with similar results. I have not once run out of ammo on my atlas running an AC20. Even running an AC40 jager it's rare for me to run out of ammo. I think it's happened twice in all of the matches I've taken one in.

Flaming oblivion, on 28 May 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

What worrys me is they haven't touched easy mode till now to keep the bads happy, Now suddenly they balance IS tech just in time for clan tech, How OP is clan going to be I wonder.

Either hilariously so, or even worse than IS tech. My guess? They're nerfing IS tech to be more in line with their planned clan specs. Which, one way or another, will most likely be horribly broken to the point that one side or the other will wind up being unplayable for about a week after launch.

[White Bear 84]

IanDresariAce, on 28 May 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

WE LOVE AUTOCANONS AS THEY ARE!
PLEASE, LEAVE THEM ALONE!

What's the meta? Worried they meta mucked up your meta?

Edited by White Bear 84, 28 May 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[Kassatsu]

White Bear 84, on 28 May 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

What's the meta? Worried they meta mucked up your meta?

This meta thread is now too meta for me.

[ManDaisy]

White Bear 84, on 28 May 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

What's the meta? Worried they meta mucked up your meta?

Maybe he meta that they meta made him have to change his meta.

[Deacon412]

LoPanShui, on 28 May 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Yeah, don't nerf autoca

{This post interrupted by Jagerbomb}

What I mean is that autocannons are overp

{This post interrupted by Dakka Banshee}

A/Cs are perfect where they a

{This post interrupted by Poptart Victor}

what about the hunchback and its ac/20? because thats pretty much all it has.

[IraqiWalker]

Deacon412, on 28 May 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

what about the hunchback and its ac/20? because thats pretty much all it has.

The hunchback is completely unaffected by this balance. Unless your hunchback is running around lobbing AC20 shots at 600+ meters (which it shouldn't be doing in the first place).

[Sergeant Random]

Can they buff spotters? For door to door delivery of personal LRMageddon. And dispensing of spotter cbills.

(I doubt anyone can buff a role though - can they?)

Sorry - off topic. Feel free to troll me.

Oh - less AC range gives spotters less fear?

[Ursh]

I use AC on a lot of mechs, and I don't have a problem with this adjustment. I refuse to call it a nerf because i typically don't engage people more than 100m beyond my AC max range anyway.

If you really needed that 3x max range mechanic, you were that guy on top of the hill in Alpine who spent the entire match plinking at people because you were too scared to move up enough to be in range of lasers and ppcs. Congrats on that 140 dmg you did with six tons of AC5 ammo.

[IraqiWalker]

Ursh, on 28 May 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

I use AC on a lot of mechs, and I don't have a problem with this adjustment. I refuse to call it a nerf because i typically don't engage people more than 100m beyond my AC max range anyway.

If you really needed that 3x max range mechanic, you were that guy on top of the hill in Alpine who spent the entire match plinking at people because you were too scared to move up enough to be in range of lasers and ppcs. Congrats on that 140 dmg you did with six tons of AC5 ammo.

Truth