150 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

I definitely want to see Passive radar mode in game, though also ECM should have its Angel ability removed for the GECM (with a new Angel ECM equipment added).

[Rasc4l]

One last thing, which I think should be addressed with current Information Warfare is the targeting of friendlies. Like the the post on page 2 shows, there is enough room on the HUD to target at least 3 mechs simultaneously and show their data (I don't know how it looks on lower res, my sshot is 1920x1200 and it fits 4).

We currently have one button, which does this:
- target enemy in sight

If we have 3 slots for enemy mechs on the HUD, then targeting should work so that when a mech is targeted, it is shown in slot 1 where we see it now. This would include also friendlies, which could be targeted normally. When a new target is acquired, the currently targeted mech is moved to slot 2 and the new target becomes the mech in slot 1. Because a normal mech can only gather information from 1 mech at a time, the information in slot 2 of the previous mech targeted is old and not updated by the sensors. When a 3rd enemy mech is targeted, the cycle goes on and now the mechwarrior has fresh data on the targeted mech and old data of the 2 previous targeted mechs in slots 2 and 3 on the right side of the screen.

With this kind of 3-slot targeting system, I think we should have the following actions regarding target selection (this does NOT mean that the mech can hold 3 targets actively targeted - a feature that was discussed should come from BAP and Target Info Gathering module):
- target mech in sight (what we currently have+friendlies)
- target next enemy (alphabetically from currently visible mechs)
- target previous enemy (alphabetically from currently visible mechs)
- target closest enemy
- target closest enemy light
- target closest enemy medium
- target closest enemy heavy
- target closest enemy assault
- target closest friendly
- target closest lancemate
- save & lock current target to slot 2
- save & lock current target to slot 3

There's a lot of actions here but obviously they need not all be bound. For example the class specific targetings mights be useful for light hunters or if you're assigned a specific task in a 12-man match (kill the assaults). Save and lock features mean that the slot would no longer be part of the target cycling but would keep the information it contains no matter what. I mean, saving the enemy's last known stats on your screen cannot be losttech. Also when we see an enemy and we start to gather information, we might just see a flash that it was jenner, before we lost the signal. The computer in our battlemech must know that it read "jenner" just before losing the signal so why not leave the red enemy mech name and model on the screen for a second or two, perhaps in grey.

Which brings me to the last point of this post, which is the actual targeting. Currently, when UAV is deployed or you press the target overlay, a sea of red stops you from finding your target, which is especially important in competitive games. I think the basic targeting graphics on the HUD could be toned down like this:

Edited by Rasc4l, 02 June 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

Targetloc, on 01 June 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

If we got the variable detection range it would be a good time to rework BAP and ECM to make them closer to how they worked in BT canon.

Orignally ECM's only function was to counter the advantages of BAP, SSRMs and Artemis.

BAP was much nastier in double-blind games where it detected hidden units, and if you were in scanning range allowed you to see the full record sheet for your opponent's mechs.

BAP should be giving critical information on enemy mechs. It could easily show icons on the HTAL if the enemy has an XL engine, where ammunition is stored, and highlight areas that have low armor even if the enemy hasn't been shot yet. Imagine how much of a game-changer it would be if you locked a target an instantly knew if he was running an XL engine, or had ammo in his legs?

A yellow cracked shield icon on sections that allocated below 75% max armor, or a red icon if they have below 50%.

ECM would be worth taking just to interfere with that.

Or give BAP its hidden unit detection ability by allowing it very limited detection through buildings or walls (150m or less). Possibly keep that as a quirk for some of the less powerful scout mechs if they mount a BAP.

Would you go so far as to allow BAP to detect mechs through hills/buildings and such? Limitations being scout mechs only and within 100m?

[Tom Sawyer]

Variable Radar reminds me of the F-15 Eagle. I was a ground pounder in Desert Storm but I will salute the fighter jocks. Anyway I learned the Eagle drivers would TURN OFF their radar as it was a BEAST. Able to detect MIGS at vast distances but conversly the MIGS would be detect being scanned and would dive for the deck or run. So the Eagle drivers would switch off and either go Mark I eyeball or allow the E-WACS to scan and direct the eagles to the kill. Then when close they would fire up and just go to town.

[DocBach]

I love the mockup for the Beagle Active Probe showing locations, perhaps X's inside the side torsos as well to designate the target has an XL engine to further expose weaknesses.

[Rasc4l]

DocBach, on 03 June 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I love the mockup for the Beagle Active Probe showing locations, perhaps X's inside the side torsos as well to designate the target has an XL engine to further expose weaknesses.

You are right.

[Radbane]

Though I actually like the generall idea, I do not see this idea turn into Information Warfare unfortunally. All I see is this turning into a new meta with small annoying invisible snipers or hit and runners. just like many ECM mechs today. It's a big buff to smaller mechs, but a large nerf to the bigger ones. They will be big beacons for everyone to shoot at, without any countermeasures. Mechs today are pretty balanced with speed vs armor, so how can wi balance this?

Tombstoner, on 02 June 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

The range that a mech can be detected at should also scale with speed.


A Jenner running at 140 kph will make a lot of stompy stompy noise easily heard with a microphone.

http://bbn.com/produ...ices/boomerang/


The range that passive sensors can detect a mech should also scale with mech speed. the faster your moving the shorter the range. This forces player to think about movement and positioning. passive sensors is all about sneaking around.

This is a good suggestion.

[Tombstoner]

Radbane, on 03 June 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

Though I actually like the generall idea, I do not see this idea turn into Information Warfare unfortunally. All I see is this turning into a new meta with small annoying invisible snipers or hit and runners. just like many ECM mechs today. It's a big buff to smaller mechs, but a large nerf to the bigger ones. They will be big beacons for everyone to shoot at, without any countermeasures. Mechs today are pretty balanced with speed vs armor, so how can wi balance this?



This is a good suggestion.

Thank you... with any new system a period of adjustment must take place for reasons you cited. One compensation is less armor. people are gona really hate that idea.... simply set the base armor to be the average medium mech and then scale mechc armor protection down the smaller the mech is relative to the average medium mech size and up for larger mechs.

As it is with ECM i can get exceptional close to target. its a great thrill to be a commando standing still and watching the atlas wonder where the shots are coming from.... just stay out side of heat vision and you almost golden in the cover of some trees.
that average player is looking for a dorito. its awesome when they think my shots are friendly fire and retaliate on a team mate.

[Solis Obscuri]

I agree wholeheartedly about the BAP effect - right now it's working pretty much directly backwards from the original role in TT Battletech as a very powerful information gathering tool. I also think detection ranges are a clever idea in general, which enhances the viable of lighter scouting and skirmishing units.

I'm less enthused about active/passive RADAR, which was pretty much invented by MS as a dummied-down info warfare system for MW4.

Why not go for multiple sensor modes, like the RADAR/Infrared/Magnetometer options from Battletech? Those respectively had lesser range than RADAR, but were much more resistant to jamming, detected enemies at range in order of their heat build-up or metallic mass respectively, and each had situational handicaps - Infrared had a hard time in hot environments and Magnetometer had a hard time picking out targets against large man-made structures and certain mineral deposits.

I compiled a huge post listing some of the old TT rules quite a while back, and while some links/images are probably broken, I'd recommend/shamelessly-plug it for a read: http://mwomercs.com/...81#entry1814181

[SgtMagor]

bringing the radar system from Mw4 might help and change the gameplay a lot, plus we really need a passive radar mode if anything.

[Kolonel Matt]

I like the thought, but I would do it a little differently and make things a little more dramatic. MASSIVE POST INBOUND.

First, we will keep the concept of active and passive sensors. This will give us 3 use cases for determining contact given any 2 mechs. One is both using passive sensors, one is both using active, and the final is one being passive and one being active. For the use cases, we will use 2 stock mechs for examples, an Atlas, and a Commando.

The basic rules for this then, is as follows. First we need a base sensor range. This is not for how far you will see out, but rather how far someone will see you. After some consideration, and borrowing some ideas from this thread, I have determined that a good measure for base detection is the weight of the Mech plus its engine rating. This determines the range, in meters, at which the mech can be seen by others. There is to be no modification to this and no equipment/modules change this. It becomes, then, the range at which passive sensors will detect a mech. So, for our first use case, with both the Atlas and Commando in passive mode, the Commando will detect the Atlas at 400 meters under all circumstances. The Atlas will detect the Commando at 175 meters. Essentially, the larger the mech (weight) and the larger the engine (reactor emissions), the further out it will be targetable.

Now we go to our second use case and the second rule. I like to call it, the 1, 2, 3 rule. This will be used to determine all other sensor combos. Given 2 Mechs, one active and one passive, the active mech will be able to detect a target at 2x the targets base range due to its active sensors. However, as it is radiating quite a bit of energy, it will then be detectable at 3x its base range. The passive mech, which is radiating no extra detectable energy, can see targets further due to the emissions of the opponents active sensor. For our example, an active Atlas will see the passive Commando at 350 meters, but the Commando will see the Atlas at 1200. At the same time, a passive Atlas will see an active Commando at 525 meters and the Commando will see the Atlas at 800. This becomes a huge disadvantage for the Atlas.

When both are active, the detection range for both is simply 3x base range. So the Atlas will see the Commando at 525 and the Commando will see the Atlas at 1200.

We then need to make some other changes as well. First, target lock sharing has to be changed. If a scout sees a mech and a LRM boat goes to fire at it outside its sensor range, the base accuracy needs to be terrible. Yes, in tabletop you can do indirect fire, but after to hit modifiers, odds are you won’t hit unless certain other factors come into play. Sensors are also to be 360 degrees, but limited by LOS. This makes something like the seismic sensor still useful in looking at something on the other side of a hill. You also will not get target info by default. This leads to the next step.

Modules. These must be separated from consumables. We will have our current module slots and we will have asset slots for consumables. Think of module slots as literal slots for circuit boards that go into a mechs electronic system. Asset slots are then used more as placeholders in the mechs electronics memory to allow the use of consumables. So imagine one memory slot being the comm frequency needed to call in an arty strike.

Modules, then, have significant upgrades for a mech. Target info gathering 1 and 2 would then first identify a variant, then its load out. Sensor range 1 and 2 would give a .25 each increase on the active range for sensors. This means that our Atlas in active mode will detect the Commando at 2.25 or 2.5 times its base detection range.

ECM. This changes completely. ECM has the effect of allowing its carrier to be in active sensor mode, but for enemy sensors to perceive it as being in passive mode. That means that our Commando can be in active sensors, but an active Atlas will only see it at 2x range, rather than 3x. This applies for all friendly mechs in the bubble. It also disables Narc, BAP, and Artemis. It does not prevent lock on in any way, shape or form for either LRMs or SSRMs for mechs within detection range.

BAP. Detects shutdown mechs within base detection range and gives a .25 boost to active range.

NARC and TAG. This is super important. As mechs can no longer target outside of what they can detect, these are the tools to fix that. Mechs can TAG and NARC an enemy mech to make it targetable at any range the missile can be fired at. Scouts that TAG and NARC need to get a significant (30% to 50% increase at match end) c-bill and exp bonus.

BAM, done. This gives a huge buff to medium mechs as their combination of lighter engine and weight makes them much harder to see. For lights, they get to make a choice between “do I go super fast”, or “do I go super stealthy”? Heavies and Assaults get better armor and weapons, but you can see them coming much further away. TAGing and NARCing give significant rewards to mechs that work with missile boats, and ECM is no longer Angel mode. Modules greatly improve mech capabilities and consumables get their own space.

Only things left then is to make normal and ultra ACs burst fire, LBX ACs switchable, have Jump Jets propel a mech forward at the same rate as it goes up, and find a use for that damn command console. I also have an interesting idea to balance PPCs without any sort of silly arcing and without ghost heat. will post if asked.

[Kyle Wright]

Kolonel Matt, on 06 June 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

snip*

I like your ideas, but 1200m sensor range is way to far on the majority of the maps. River City and Caustic would be come a nightmare and no element of surprise would ever be left to chance.

Other then that not to shabby

[Zerberus]

Wolfways, on 30 May 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

Wouldn't this help spread the damage then, if multiple targets are locked instead of all LRM's concentrating on one target?
I don't know how bad it is in the low ELO area though.

Considering that`s the only place where LRMs work reliably, probably pretty bad... but that`s in no way the fault of LRMs, it`s the fault of the steering wheel underhive themselves for sucking so bad that LRMs continue to work against them. Usually by chaining themselves to imaginary rules that don`t exist and then complaining when other players who never agreed to their personal set of house rules suddenly don`t abide by them.

[Kolonel Matt]

Kyle Wright, on 06 June 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I like your ideas, but 1200m sensor range is way to far on the majority of the maps. River City and Caustic would be come a nightmare and no element of surprise would ever be left to chance.

Other then that not to shabby

I did think of that. Remember that it is LOS based, so you actually have to be looking at the mech to be able to target it. Also, without tag/narc, you don't get to target for missiles without them being in your (the missile boats) detectable range. Finally, the math of 1, 2, 3 made it super easy/lazy ( ) for comparisons sake and can be modified, however, any reduction would make lights and mediums even more invisible. Shifting the top end would shift the bottom end.

You could also give extra active sensor modifiers for certain mechs based off of lore, as stated earlier in thread, such as the Jagermech getting a + .5 to active. This gives a boost to help the usefulness of certain types of mechs.

[Lightfoot]

I always carry TAG if I have LRMs and they should work better on a Tag'ed target. Right now it's like a 10% buff, or so it seems. Not really worth going against direct-fire with, which is what you are going to be buffing, direct-fire that is. BAP detects passive radar mechs at 800 meters, BTW.

[Kolonel Matt]

Kyle Wright, on 06 June 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I like your ideas, but 1200m sensor range is way to far on the majority of the maps. River City and Caustic would be come a nightmare and no element of surprise would ever be left to chance.

Other then that not to shabby

As I thought of this a second time, I realized that the 1200 meter radar is a non issue. Right now the Advanced Sensor Module gives a 25% boost to range, and BAP gives a 25% boost to range (unless they took that away when they made it a hard counter to ECM), They do in fact stack, so, depending on how you do the math, with both you can get either 1200, or 1250 meters sensor range in game right now.

[GroovYChickeN]

I like this idea. I really think something like this needs to be introduced to give scouts/spotters a real role.

One thing though. If this was really to work well, we need maps that are 4x the size that we get right now.

[stjobe]

Another in the long, long, LONG line of great ideas that have been presented more or less ready to code over the last two years. I'm fully expecting it to get as much traction with PGI as the rest of them (and yes, I did see Bryan's post; he's endorsed ideas before but none have yet to make it from forum to game).

[Bagheera]

The game needs this, definitely.

[ApolloKaras]

Bagheera, on 06 June 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

The game needs this, definitely.

Especially now after the JJ/leg damage patch to lights. They just keep making it more difficult to pilot a light.