275 replies to this topic

[Blair]

gregsolidus, on 20 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

No.This is pretty much a kickstarter.

This is what I don't understand. This year we've seen an unprecedented amount of player patronage of games still in development. Thousands of people shelling out millions of dollars for an idea. We have much more here. We have a game we already know is being beta tested, constant developer contact and updates, gameplay videos, games specs, and an early-access release date.

I get that some people aren't okay with putting out hard cash before seeing what they're getting, and that's fine. Those people are not Founders, and that's okay. Why, though, do they seem to think it's so daft for someone else to put up their money? Some people just have different financial priorities, and are willing to take a chance on what they believe may be a phenomenal game.

[LackofCertainty]

Renan Ruivo, on 20 June 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

By your explanation, the same hardcore fans would still have bought the pack wether it expired before open beta or not. There is still no good reason for them to make the deal expire before open beta ... well ... opens. No good reason for us, at any rate.

Why are you so adamantly opposed to limited time sales?

Were you pissed at minecraft/mount&blade for slowly increasing their price as they ramped up to launch, so that people who bought earlier got better deals?

Why shouldn't PGI reward their fans who are willing to put in money before the game launches? From an economics standpoint, getting 30$ from someone now, is a lot more valuable than getting 30$ in 2 months.

At the end of the day, PGI is a business. Of course they're going to make decisions that (hopefully) make them money while keeping their fans happy. The founder's packages have pleased the majority of their super-hardcore fans. If the package isn't for you, then don't buy it, but there's no reason why PGI shouldn't be allowed to sell them to the people who want them.

I prefer the way PGI is handling this compared to the standard industry "limited edition" games, because at least PGI is really limiting them. (for those who don't know, most games with limited editions don't actually have strict limits on their production, so they're not really limited at all[aka the companies lie to you to pretend to create rarity/scarcity])

[JabberJon]

I'm not knocking anyone who does or doesn't want to pay. I honestly believe they will sell packs very similar to what is available at launch, I just think the founders packs are for those who want to get in early and are chomping at the bit to do so. If you want to be cautious, by all means, relax and take it slow. The game will be here before we all know it, and we'll all be in the field "FIRIN MAH LAZOR" at each other.

I don't think the founder's pack is going to be an uber rare package, just the titles. I think they'll have packs out like, $25, get a mech and $20 in game cash, something like that. Most F2Ps make a retail pack with an assortment of goodies, in game cash to spend and some kind of bonus. I don't see any reason to think MW:O won't do the same. LoL, WoT and many others have done it with excellent success, why wouldn't MW:O do it once they get rolling? The "get it before it's gone" is being put there because we demanded it. For the last few months, we've begged to get in, pleaded, demanded and bribed. We asked for some kind of pre-order pack that would get us in early, and we got it. No reason to think there won't be many more packs with all kinds of goodies in there too.

[Renan Ruivo]

LackofCertainty, on 20 June 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Why are you so adamantly opposed to limited time sales?

I'm not. I don't oppose to anything if there is good reason. What i do disagree with, however, is that the offer expires before the game is open to the general public. Not before its released in its finished state, mind you, since that would defeat the purpose, but before the game goes live in a beta stage. Like i said before i haven't seen a good reason as to why this offer must end before Aug 7th and not, say, Aug 10th, so that people will have at least 2 days before making a decision.


People who decided that they have enough reasons as it is to buy the package are not entitled to say that those who don't have (reasons) yet don't deserve a chance. That is called being petty, at best.


You used Minecraft as an example. Well, even Minecraft had a "free" version for everyone to try out before buying the game under its original "early buyers" sale. I did it so myself, played the free thing, enjoyed it and bought it back when it costed only 9 bucks.

[JabberJon]

LackofCertainty, on 20 June 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Why are you so adamantly opposed to limited time sales?

Were you pissed at minecraft/mount&blade for slowly increasing their price as they ramped up to launch, so that people who bought earlier got better deals?

^ That's a great point. Many games and event do that. Have you seen a 4 day pass to dragon con? I think they start out around 60-70 dollars the week after the convention ends, to get you to purchase your ticket for the next year. That's right, buy it now, no refunds and get your prize in 51 weeks. If you wait until it gets closer to the convention, it's $130 a ticket (maybe even higher, haven't checked this year.

[Ishtar]

Koenig, on 20 June 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I'm all ready to shell out $120 for the full deal if the game is "fun". Will we have a chance to play a demo or open beta before the Founder pack sale expires?

Make a purchase through paypal, and do it with the 30 days of the game coming out. If you don't like it and you want a refund file a dispute. I'm sure there some weird rule paypal uses if you don't like the product or it doesn't come to what you want if you file a refund..

[LackofCertainty]

Renan Ruivo, on 20 June 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I'm not. I don't oppose to anything if there is good reason. What i do disagree with, however, is that the offer expires before the game is open to the general public. Not before its released in its finished state, mind you, since that would defeat the purpose, but before the game goes live in a beta stage. Like i said before i haven't seen a good reason as to why this offer must end before Aug 7th and not, say, Aug 10th, so that people will have at least 2 days before making a decision.


People who decided that they have enough reasons as it is to buy the package are not entitled to say that those who don't have (reasons) yet don't deserve a chance. That is called being petty, at best.


You used Minecraft as an example. Well, even Minecraft had a "free" version for everyone to try out before buying the game under its original "early buyers" sale. I did it so myself, played the free thing, enjoyed it and bought it back when it costed only 9 bucks.

The creative version of minecraft barely resembles the actual minecraft. I, personally was one of the people who was initially turned off by the creative mode, and didn't end up buying minecraft till very recently when a friend showed me that there was an actual game in the survival mode.

So, I'm the example of the opposite side of it. I had to pay 17$ more than you did to buy minecraft, and the original/creative version was complete garbage and turned me off of a game that I ended up liking. Do I now have the right to demand that I get 17$ back, because Notch didn't let me try out the survival mode? Do I have the right to demand that you pay 17$ more, because if I had known what the game was I would've bought it at the same time as you? That's silly. (just like this whole thread)

As far as being petty, I'll admit that part of what PGI is selling is prestige, and prestige can easily be the result (or cause) of pettiness. However, I ask that you play devil's advocate with yourself for a moment.

How would PGI leaving the deal up till August 10th make any difference? August 7th is when the 2nd round of closed beta starts. The game will still not be available to the public then. If you're aruging that they need to leave the deal open till open beta, then I think you just want something other than what they're doing. This offer is specifically for people who want to support the game now, before it's launch.

As far as sales go, I'm sure that once the game goes to open beta, they'll have another sale. People probably won't get founder's tags or founder's mechs with that sale (because that's part of what makes this sale special) but they'll still get good deals. Just because this is the first limited time sale that PGI's done doesn't mean they can't do different ones in the future. I don't see how the existence of the founder sale will hurt people who decide to wait and buy future sales. (honestly, I'd argue that that line of thinking is more petty than my own line of thinking, but that's an opinion)

Edit: Tried to cut down on my rambling a bit.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 20 June 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[oohawkoo]

well the founders pack prolly dosent give you much more than youd get with a premium acount later on ..... i mean all we getting extra is some cash and a mech or 4 and a founders tag ... .. the rest is prolly inclusive with premium ... +exp and cbills in a battle .. i dont really think theres much for ppl to worry over too much =X... if you want the extra mechs then buy it if you dont care then wait =3 its really quite simple but you really shouldnt try use it as a way to extort a jump into beta early .. i mean it already gives you the chance to get into the last stages of beta testing as it is =3

[light487]

I've known about this game for about 1 week now. I'd not seen any trailers (I just watched one this minute actually) or even screenshots. I "know" I will want and like this game before I've even seen it. That's how much trust I have in this franchise and the developers who have done a few AAA titles for the consoles. I even know this game is going to be hosted in NA and EU and may never have a dedicated server in Australia...

I have my doubts that this game might flop.. I have my doubts that the ping/latency might be a problem for me.. I have doubts in general...

...but I'm still happy to get the legendary founder kit because I believe in the franchise.

[LordDeathStrike]

Koenig, on 20 June 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I'm all ready to shell out $120 for the full deal if the game is "fun". Will we have a chance to play a demo or open beta before the Founder pack sale expires?

this is how you have to look at it:

1: am i poor? if not then whats 120$ to be legendary.
2: do i enjoy mechwarrior games and making other people cry when i blow up their mechs. if yes, then you might be legendary material.
3: do i buy games at full price before they have demos? hell i bought duke nukem forever on sale for 40$ after it came out, i still feel gyped, turns out in the 15 years it took them to release it, i out grew the humor, o well.

THIS IS MECHWARRIOR, I AM LEGENDARY, FEEL MY WRATH

[Rejarial Galatan]

People are right. The Founders Package becomes unavailable prior to open beta. Think of it like this, if your a little leery of shelling out 30-120 bucks on a game you have yet to play. It is like going to GameStop or w/e your preferred game selling store is, and buying a game for your console or pc. In all honesty, how many of us got to say, play Assassin's Creed <any of its titles currently out> before putting down money on it? <not counting renting it, talking before street date/on street date here> I would wager not many of us, if any of us at all.

[Renan Ruivo]

LackofCertainty, on 20 June 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

The creative version of minecraft barely resembles the actual minecraft. I, personally was one of the people who was initially turned off by the creative mode, and didn't end up buying minecraft till very recently when a friend showed me that there was an actual game in the survival mode.

So, I'm the example of the opposite side of it. I had to pay 17$ more than you did to buy minecraft, and the original/creative version was complete garbage and turned me off of a game that I ended up liking. Do I now have the right to demand that I get 17$ back, because Notch didn't let me try out the survival mode? Do I have the right to demand that you pay 17$ more, because if I had known what the game was I would've bought it at the same time as you? That's silly. (just like this whole thread)

As far as being petty, I'll admit that part of what PGI is selling is prestige, and prestige can easily be the result (or cause) of pettiness. However, I ask that you play devil's advocate with yourself for a moment.

How would PGI leaving the deal up till August 10th make any difference? August 7th is when the 2nd round of closed beta starts. The game will still not be available to the public then. If you're aruging that they need to leave the deal open till open beta, then I think you just want something other than what they're doing. This offer is specifically for people who want to support the game now, before it's launch.

As far as sales go, I'm sure that once the game goes to open beta, they'll have another sale. People probably won't get founder's tags or founder's mechs with that sale (because that's part of what makes this sale special) but they'll still get good deals. Just because this is the first limited time sale that PGI's done doesn't mean they can't do different ones in the future. I don't see how the existence of the founder sale will hurt people who decide to wait and buy future sales. (honestly, I'd argue that that line of thinking is more petty than my own line of thinking, but that's an opinion)

Edit: Tried to cut down on my rambling a bit.

Well, i'm not saying that they are wrong. In this case there isn't a right or wrong. But everything must have a reason and in my opinion there no good reason to make this deal expire before the open beta.

"Because its a token of good faith from the players" might be a good reason for them and for a lot of fans, but not to me and not to those complaining. Simply put, if players need an arbitrary limitation to show their good faith, then that faith is good for nothing. I ask who would command greater "respect", the player who gave his support without trying it out first because he couldn't, or the player who did it because he chose of his own free will?!

Personally i will buy the one of the packs regardless of wether or not they make it available after open beta goes live, i simply haven't yet because i'm waiting for my credit card cut-off date. But still, nobody is entitled to patronize people who want to buy one of these packs during open beta. They want the pack, but they value their money in a different way then other people, and there is no good reason behind not giving them a chance in a way that won't devalue the packs for everyone.


If someone feels that another person who does not show the same amount of "faith" shouldn't be allowed to reap some of the same rewards (remember, they wouldn't be getting both the head-start and the CB access that you will, but would still pay the same amount of money), then i ask myself what sort of supporter that person is in the first place. A good supporter would believe that the more people paying the better, and not bicker that something that "should be exclusive to him alone" is being offered to someone else.

[Covet]

GHQCommander, on 20 June 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

I was going to spend $120, then I read more posts asking to actually see what they are going to get for it. Even a single player game gets a small demo for half the price. So I'm joining that argument. Give it a couple of months and there will be players in this forum complaining about how they wish they never spent $120. There always is in every game, every kind of argument and complaint. So many users in this forum have spent the $120, they behave as if its nothing, but just wait and see. Some of them will have some complaint to make one day and their tune will change about their payment. Granted not all and most will be happy, like I probably will be. I too think I will love the game, but it is not the point. My own customers for my own software get a refund if they are not happy and they pay about $140. They also get endless videos, tutorials, endless page of documentation, they get to speak to myself directly, they get access to beta, trials etc I won't get a refund for my $120 on this if it launches, no rights. Only with software can they get away with that, despite this being a service that can be stopped from their end. Many developers ethics are poor especially in MMO game development. So I realised I don't want to encourage this behaviour in software development when the software is provided via a controlled web service, not a stand alone product for Windows. They are hiding behind the old software no return excuse, desptie it not applying in the slightest because this is a service. They could issue even 1 hour of beta access and I want that first. That is my change of position since a couple of days ago. When I have no trial for my software, customers don't want to pay $20 never mind $120. Let me see the game please, thanks.

I don't understand what you are talking about. the game is free. Anyone that pay's for a founders pack isn't being fooled. They are paying for the developement and bonuses you get of/from the game. Any one of us could just wait and play for free with no worries about our purchase being lame.

It's all about fans. We love mechwarrior and (I will be buying legenday pack in about 1 minute ) don't mind supporting what looks to be a good game. This free to play mmo is going to be run very similar to World of Tanks, which is an awsome idea. That's all we really need to know.

Don't forget E3.. people know how this game will play. Sure there will be bugs and whatever, but they will get squashed in time. It's using the unreal engine. Very good engine. Very easy to squash bugs.

So remember, no one is getting duped here. We are not buying the game so there is no refund to ask for. How can you refund something that is free?

[Streaker]

Blair, on 20 June 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

This is what I don't understand. This year we've seen an unprecedented amount of player patronage of games still in development. Thousands of people shelling out millions of dollars for an idea. We have much more here. We have a game we already know is being beta tested, constant developer contact and updates, gameplay videos, games specs, and an early-access release date.

I get that some people aren't okay with putting out hard cash before seeing what they're getting, and that's fine. Those people are not Founders, and that's okay. Why, though, do they seem to think it's so daft for someone else to put up their money? Some people just have different financial priorities, and are willing to take a chance on what they believe may be a phenomenal game.

Was burned by Hellgate London with the "Founder's" package for that game which included a lifetime subscription ....

Since then I'm a little more skeptical about these sort of things.

I'll wait till I have some hands on time and/or hear from some trusted sources on the state of the game before opening up the wallet.

Streaker

[LackofCertainty]

Renan Ruivo, on 20 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Well, i'm not saying that they are wrong. In this case there isn't a right or wrong. But everything must have a reason and in my opinion there no good reason to make this deal expire before the open beta.

"Because its a token of good faith from the players" might be a good reason for them and for a lot of fans, but not to me and not to those complaining. Simply put, if players need an arbitrary limitation to show their good faith, then that faith is good for nothing. I ask who would command greater "respect", the player who gave his support without trying it out first because he couldn't, or the player who did it because he chose of his own free will?!

This is the snag of the argument though. Players who don't buy the founder pack can still put as much money as they choose into the game normally. Once the game comes out, they can purchase their real$ currency, and buy whatever they want from the store. Hell, since it's F2P, they could put 0$ in and still get access to everything if they put enough time in. (minus some aesthetic only changes, likely)

The "reason" for it is the same as that of Minecraft/Mount&Blade. The devs know that there are passionate fans, and want to reward the most passionate with a nice deal. Missing out on the founder's package doesn't limit your future access to the game, it just means that you'll have to pay a little more to get the same stuff. (as they list on the page, the 30$ one is a 50$ value, the 60$ one is a 115$ value, and the 120$ one is a 170$ value)

One of the main parts of the founders pack is closed beta access. Why should PGI sell a pack that grants access to the closed beta after the closed beta is nearly done. (or even after the open beta begins as you seem to want) Wouldn't it better serve fans if they just made a new package that was for sale when open beta begins? A package that both new fans and possibly some founders would want to buy as well?

And one more thing. If you're buying something to "get respect" then you're likely getting gypped out of your money. If you're buying an item that's exclusive to the founder's pack because you like the look of it or the lifetime C-bills boost, then I can see the justification.

Quote

Personally i will buy the one of the packs regardless of wether or not they make it available after open beta goes live, i simply haven't yet because i'm waiting for my credit card cut-off date. But still, nobody is entitled to patronize people who want to buy one of these packs during open beta. They want the pack, but they value their money in a different way then other people, and there is no good reason behind not giving them a chance in a way that won't devalue the packs for everyone.


If someone feels that another person who does not show the same amount of "faith" shouldn't be allowed to reap some of the same rewards (remember, they wouldn't be getting both the head-start and the CB access that you will, but would still pay the same amount of money), then i ask myself what sort of supporter that person is in the first place. A good supporter would believe that the more people paying the better, and not bicker that something that "should be exclusive to him alone" is being offered to someone else.

It's not really a question of faith in the product; it's a question of desire vs. cost. I said earlier in the thread, "If you're on the fence about the founder's package you shouldn't get the founder's package," because very little in the founder's package is exclusive.

Premium account?
You can buy that when the game's in open beta.
Forum tag?
No monetary value.
Real$ currency in game?
You can buy it when the game's in open beta.
Closed Beta Access?
Stops being worth anything when the game switches to open beta.

The only thing that is exclusive to the founder's packs that has a permanent value in game is the founder mechs, simply because they get a unique skin and a c-bill boost.

I think that if a person is hesitant about a purchase, they should err on the side of caution. I'd rather a bunch of people not buy the founder's and say, "Aw shoot. I wish I'd bought that," instead of having a bunch of people say, "I bought the founder's pack and this closed beta isn't even a polished game yet!!1!" (as though closed betas were a finished product or something. >_>)

This all comes back to you seeming to hate the idea of limited time offers again. In order to make you happy, it seems like PGI would have to offer the founder's package for the entire life of the game. It wouldn't be fair, after all, if they stopped selling it after open beta, because then people who first found MWO after launch would never be able to buy a founder's pack.

P.S.
I would still like to hear your thoughts on minecraft, Renan. Do I deserve 17$ back, because they didn't give me the exact same deal as you, or should you have to pay 17$ more, because, according to your logic with MWO, it's not fair that you got a better deal than I did.

(or can we just agree that limited time offers are fine )

Edited by LackofCertainty, 20 June 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[RogueFox]

Renan Ruivo, on 20 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Well, i'm not saying that they are wrong. In this case there isn't a right or wrong. But everything must have a reason and in my opinion there no good reason to make this deal expire before the open beta.

"Because its a token of good faith from the players" might be a good reason for them and for a lot of fans, but not to me and not to those complaining. Simply put, if players need an arbitrary limitation to show their good faith, then that faith is good for nothing. I ask who would command greater "respect", the player who gave his support without trying it out first because he couldn't, or the player who did it because he chose of his own free will?!

A good supporter would believe that the more people paying the better, and not bicker that something that "should be exclusive to him alone" is being offered to someone else.

First off you are completely missing the point of the "Founders Package", it is specifically for people willing to give them money before they try the game. That is the reason the deal expires before open beta.

After you can try the game you are more than welcome to spend money "of your own free will" in any fashion you choose. You can buy everything they offer or not spend a dime and still play the exact same game the "Founders" are playing.

Your argument s that you want to try before you buy and this package is specifically for those who do not feel that need. It is obvious that it is not for you. I wish I had bought stock in Apple when it was $25 a share and they had not yet produced iPods, those that had faith were rewarded. The Devs are simply giving those who are willing to help finance their game a little thank you, I do not understand why this upsets you so much.

[Neokigali]

They are not getting a single penny out of me until I am hooked on the game and want more Exp/C-Bills!!!!

[Xune]

I see the founder programm as it is.

A way to help the developers, you get some goodies for it.

It is, and never was, meand as a "i buy this game" afterall its f2p

So you want to wait and see what its like ? sure no bigy. no one forces you to pay anything to play it.

[00dlez]

Did you demand to play Skyrim or BF3 before you pre-ordered the game?

[Gorith]

The founders packs are rewards for showing faith in the dev team and product. It is absolutely no different than pre-ordering a collectors edition.