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Your Vote On Solutions To Convergence And Pin-Point Damage


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Poll: Convergence (112 member(s) have cast votes)

What should the solution to convergence and pin-point damage be?

  1. Keep the current system (heat scaling, ballistic nerfs, etc.). (18 votes [16.07%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.07%

  2. Targeting Computer Loss. See link provided in the thread. (9 votes [8.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.04%

  3. Crosshair deviation and cone-of-fire spread based on recoil, movement, and terrain obstruction. See thread for explanation. (71 votes [63.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 63.39%

  4. Propose another solution (please post below). (14 votes [12.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

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#1 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:15 AM

This is it. These two aspects of the game are the monsters that caused Ghost Heat, the so-called Jumpsniper "meta," the Gauss Rifle charge, numerous AC nerfs, and countless other arbitrary nerfs and re-works to come about.

The purpose of this thread is two-fold:

1. Make P.G.I. acutely aware of the problem with convergence and pin-point damage; that it is STILL a problem.

2. Offer solutions that may be a catalyst to change the old system.

As per poll prompt here is the "Targeting Computer Loss" proposal for dealing with convergence if you need an extended explanation.

The TL;DR version of T.C.L. is basically this: Convergence will go to crap once the targeting computer overloads. The Targeting Computer overloads if too many weapons are fired at once, forcing pilots to fire their weapons in succession as opposed to firing them all at once. Alpha strikes will still exist, but, the bigger the weapons that are fired more often, the quicker T.C.L. will occur and the more likely you'll put your 'mechs firepower all over the place rather then at a single point.

My proposal is a mechanic that is based on Mechwarrior 3's system, except with much more depth.

I'll start with how this system will effect the various weapon types:

Energy (lasers) - This deviation is significantly lessened for weapons such as lasers, but terrain obstructions will effect crosshair "shake." The faster the pilot moves and the more rough the terrain is, the less able the pilot will be able to put the laser's maximum beam-time on a single location on a 'mech. This would mean shortening beam-times, but only enough to where the beam-time can be balanced with the deviation give by speed and terrain.

Energy (PPCs) - Because the damage of the PPC is front-loaded and not a DoT like lasers are, the PPC will have recoil, but the least amount of recoil of all the weapon types. It's cone of fire and the crosshair will deviate based on it's speed, recoil, and terrain obstruction. In addition to this, the PPC will have a longer cool-down time.

Missiles (LRMs) - Because of the launch systems on LRMs and because of their purpose as an indirect fire weapon, the LRMs won't be affected by this system much except for one aspect: Targeting time. If you move, it will take longer for the Targeting Computer to acquire a lock. Recoil is present for LRMs, but it is minor. Even less then the PPC, in fact.

Missiles (SRMs) - Unlike LRMs, SRMs are contact warheads. They do not (SHOULD NOT) explode "in vacinity" of a target, and explode as soon as it hits the target's armor. At close range, even with minor recoil, and crosshair deviation, SRMs are extremely effective at close range, but will become more adversely effected by the factors that influence cone-of-fire and crosshair deviation as distance with the target is increased.

Missiles (SSRMs) - SSRMs are a short-range combination of LRMs and SRMs. Recoil is minor, they are effected little by cone-of-fire or crosshair deviation, and they have a fast lock-on time when targets are acquired within their effective range. Even when moving at high-speeds. However, this increased lock-on time is only present when a target is being acquired within the missiles effective range. Meaning that the SSRMs will suffer the same decrease in lock-on time as LRMs do when moving.

Ballistics (ACs) - AC's are not only effected by recoil, cone-of-fire, and crosshair deviation from terrain obstruction, but they also have bullet-drop and the cone-of-fire increases for fast-firing ACs if they fire at their full-cyclic RoF. Projectile speeds are increased up to real-world standards to compensate for the increased in difficulty of firing ACs accurately.

Ballistics (Gauss Rifle) - Because of the frictionless, magnetized barrel, and the lack of propellants for it's projectile, the Gauss Rifle does not generate that much heat or recoil (it's recoil is above that of the PPC, but below that of other ACs) and enjoys the benefit of having the highest projectile speed, while suffering no bullet drop-off. However, the Gauss has a long "cool-down" period between shots and can explode if damaged because of the weapon's self-contained power generator for the magnetic coils that fire the projectile (yes, I am aware the Gauss already explodes in game). As implied earlier, the Gauss is strongly effected by crosshair "shake"/deviation from movement, terrain, and recoil.

Jump-jets - Here is where things get interesting. There is significant crosshair "shake" or deviation when a 'mech is going UP when using jumpjets, but there is no "shake" when coming back DOWN. This is wrong. Only 'mechs with "enhanced jumpjets" are capable of jump-sniping because of the stabilizing verniers that are additionally equipped to the jump-jets themselves. Therefore, with this system, unless a 'mech is equipped with enhanced jump-jets (which, at present, there are no 'mechs in the game that are) the crosshair "shake" while jump-jetting will be present while going DOWN in mid-air as well as going up. This will make jump-sniping without enhanced jumpjets virtually impossible and will only make shooting while jumping practical at "knife-fighting" or close ranges.

So that is my proposal. Questions or comments are welcome. :)

*EDIT*

AS AN ADDENDUM: PLEASE keep the topic on convergence and pin-point damage. The problems such as jump-sniping, ac nerfs, etc... THOSE ARE ALL ADDRESSED by dealing with convergence and pin-point damage! THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT THREAD and THIS IS NOT A THREAD WHERE AN ANSWER IS AS SIMPLE AS "NERF PLZ."

This is not the thread to address other game elements such as ECM, graphical issues, or other proposed features that fall well outside of the topics of convergence or pin-point damage.

If you have another solution that deals with convergence or pin-point damage, please offer it in a manner that has some critical thinking to it.

Thank you.

Edited by ReXspec, 30 May 2014 - 06:59 PM.


#2 Adamski

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:14 AM

The least fun things to deal with in game:

ECM sniper lights
ECM blobs
Pop-Tarts

Nerfing ECM to only disable BAP/ NARC/ TAG/ Artemis bonus, and not provide a targeting / missile lock shield.

Then keep nerf PPC with charge time like Gauss to make them that much worse for brawling / poptarting, which encourages more lasers & lrm / srm with the extra tonnage.

Then remove the extra heat capacity from DHS only.(DHS mechs are limited to 30 max heat). This lowers overall DPS and increases time to kill.

#3 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:28 AM

View PostAdamski, on 30 May 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

The least fun things to deal with in game:

ECM sniper lights
ECM blobs
Pop-Tarts

Nerfing ECM to only disable BAP/ NARC/ TAG/ Artemis bonus, and not provide a targeting / missile lock shield.

Then keep nerf PPC with charge time like Gauss to make them that much worse for brawling / poptarting, which encourages more lasers & lrm / srm with the extra tonnage.

Then remove the extra heat capacity from DHS only.(DHS mechs are limited to 30 max heat). This lowers overall DPS and increases time to kill.


Please re-read my proposal above...

The whole issue with all the problems that you put forward are based on how accurate other 'mechs can put fire downrange. To outright "nerf" something else without dealing with the core issue of convergence and pin-point damage is pointless if you continue to make every weapon laser accurate all the time.

To nerf the things that you are proposing to nerf is not fixing the issue. It is simply putting a bandage over a bullet wound.

Edited by ReXspec, 30 May 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#4 Adamski

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:42 AM

You're right, the 8 different aiming systems you are proposing are much more intuitive and likely to be implemented. *nutso&*

#5 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:59 AM

View PostAdamski, on 30 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

You're right, the 8 different aiming systems you are proposing are much more intuitive and likely to be implemented. *nutso&*


I appreciate your candor, but the snide sarcasm and name-calling isn't necessary.

I'm not proposing to add "8 different aiming systems." You are completely missing the point of this post if that is what you think I'm trying to do.

The core of my proposed system is adding crosshair deviation and spread based on recoil, speed, and terrain. I'm simply explaining how this system effects different types of weapon systems and their firing behavior.

I don't know where you think you get off being sarcastic and then calling me a "nutso" after I made this clear.

Edited by ReXspec, 30 May 2014 - 11:11 AM.


#6 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:14 PM

Bump

#7 Bigbacon

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:20 PM

i vote leave it as is.

#8 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:30 PM

View PostBigbacon, on 30 May 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

i vote leave it as is.


Then you may want to vote. That falls under "keep the current system," by the way.

I don't know why you would want to vote for that, but, whatever floats your boat.

Edited by ReXspec, 30 May 2014 - 05:34 PM.


#9 Bigbacon

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:36 PM

View PostReXspec, on 30 May 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:


Then you may want to vote. That falls under "keep the current system," by the way.

I don't know why you would want to vote for that, but, whatever floats your boat.


voted and as much as many of you want this game to the the OMG TT REPLACEMENT SIMULATOR....it will never be.

It works for those who are not hell bent on the above.

#10 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:47 PM

View PostBigbacon, on 30 May 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:


voted and as much as many of you want this game to the the OMG TT REPLACEMENT SIMULATOR....it will never be.

It works for those who are not hell bent on the above.


If you think the current system is the best P.G.I. can come up with, then you may want to re-think that position. It "works" for players like you because you're too lazy to look for alternatives and would rather stick with a proverbial bandage over a bullet wound rather then get the problem fixed.

Now, if you don't think there is a problem, then you may want to pay attention to the dev blogs and the countless "fixes" and "nerfs" that resulted from that attitude of yours. The devs have acknowledged there is a problem with convergence and pin-point damage for MONTHS now. So, when you say the game is "fine" or "it works" that tells me you are blissfully ignorant of the facts.

I've been playing Battletech and Mechwarrior for most of my life. I believe in giving players the game players deserve. I would hope that falls under P.G.I.'s long term goals as well. Use some critical thinking for f*ck sake.

I'm in this for the long haul, skippy. And I aim to give suggestions on how to make MWO the best Mechwarrior iteration it can possibly be. If you're satisfied at this game being an un-optimized, lame-brain shooter, then you better eject now and go back to Battlefield 4, because this game is not for you.

Edited by ReXspec, 31 May 2014 - 12:37 AM.


#11 BourbonFaucet

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:57 PM

Voted for cone-of-fire.

The primary problem I see with this game is that every weapon that isn't a missile or LBX is a sniper like weapon by FPS terms. Pinpoint accuracy and perfect convergence.

Having a cone of fire that's displayed as some kind of bracket around the cross hairs is an idea I support. In particular, it should scale based off of the percentage of the 'Mech's max speed that it is moving, and a flat large spread during the ascent of a jump, and a more modest but still fairly large spread for the drop.

However, rather than have your model exactly, I'd prefer if terrain didn't affect cone of fire. Heat level would be preferable, mostly because I'd rather heat management be more important than a game of "avoid the rough spots".

In addition, lasers should fire spread out in the cone initially, and then with each "tick", the beam should move towards the center of the crosshair, at a fixed rate. Pulse lasers could move even faster towards the center, to try and simulate that to-hit bonus better than just the shorter duration.

Just my thoughts.

#12 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 06:08 PM

View PostTechorse, on 30 May 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Voted for cone-of-fire.

The primary problem I see with this game is that every weapon that isn't a missile or LBX is a sniper like weapon by FPS terms. Pinpoint accuracy and perfect convergence.

Having a cone of fire that's displayed as some kind of bracket around the cross hairs is an idea I support. In particular, it should scale based off of the percentage of the 'Mech's max speed that it is moving, and a flat large spread during the ascent of a jump, and a more modest but still fairly large spread for the drop.

However, rather than have your model exactly, I'd prefer if terrain didn't affect cone of fire. Heat level would be preferable, mostly because I'd rather heat management be more important than a game of "avoid the rough spots".

In addition, lasers should fire spread out in the cone initially, and then with each "tick", the beam should move towards the center of the crosshair, at a fixed rate. Pulse lasers could move even faster towards the center, to try and simulate that to-hit bonus better than just the shorter duration.

Just my thoughts.


I agree.

However, terrain doesn't increased spread, depending on the terrain, the crosshair will "shake" (to a lesser or greater degree; depending on terrain) if the mech passes over rough terrain. In my model, heat does, in fact, effect the actual weapon spread (aka cone-of-fire) just not as extremely as movement does.

Plus, you have to realize that the stability of the 'mech also effects how the 'mech deals with recoil and terrain. Some 'mechs may be able to fire over rough terrain easier then others. That said, it wouldn't be so much about "avoiding rough spots" as it would be about taking your time to aim shots, pausing in between bursts for your aim to reset, and then getting in an advantageous position (I.E. positions that make sense) to put fire on your opponents.

Edited by ReXspec, 30 May 2014 - 06:10 PM.


#13 p4r4g0n

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 06:21 PM

Koniving has mentioned the fact that targeting in 3rd PoV is less "stable" than 1st PoV and may be a simple fix for weapons convergence. You might want to see if you can find his posts on the issue.

Given the list of stuff PGI needs to work on and the vehement opposition to the randomness of cone of fire, application of the K.I.S.S principle would seem to be warranted for a faster implementation.

Insofar as the proposals are concerned, I don't see any new ideas that haven't been discussed / posted before or did I miss something?

#14 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 06:25 PM

View Postp4r4g0n, on 30 May 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Koniving has mentioned the fact that targeting in 3rd PoV is less "stable" than 1st PoV and may be a simple fix for weapons convergence. You might want to see if you can find his posts on the issue.

Given the list of stuff PGI needs to work on and the vehement opposition to the randomness of cone of fire, application of the K.I.S.S principle would seem to be warranted for a faster implementation.

Insofar as the proposals are concerned, I don't see any new ideas that haven't been discussed / posted before or did I miss something?


If you have an idea that falls outside of the first three votes, then the vote for "propose another solution" would be the most appropriate for you. It may also behoove you to give a proposal or a link to the proposal that falls under the parameters that you outlined.

Edited by ReXspec, 30 May 2014 - 06:26 PM.


#15 Kassatsu

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:10 PM

Too bad option 3 (by far the best choice) won't be implemented thanks to the very same 'competitive' player builds it's trying to nerf (even though that's really just a side effect of you know, actually balancing the game).

MW3 had some of the best physics I've seen in a Mechwarrior game, large weapons had noticeable recoil and wasn't automatic 100% pinpoint damage. Also knockdowns, and more dynamic turn rates based on how fast you're moving (it makes NO sense that a raven running 150 can out-turn a raven running 120 because it has a larger engine), but those are both different topics entirely.

#16 ReXspec

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:28 PM

View PostKassatsu, on 30 May 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

Too bad option 3 (by far the best choice) won't be implemented thanks to the very same 'competitive' player builds it's trying to nerf (even though that's really just a side effect of you know, actually balancing the game).

I don't quite understand what you are implying here... are you saying P.G.I. won't implement them because "competitive" players will sway them? Or are you saying something else?

As far as implementation goes, P.G.I. has no excuse not to be at least WORKING ON or TESTING one of these ideas. I heard all the excuses before: "BUT BUT BUDGET! BUT BUT THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH STAFF! THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME! THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROGRAM IT!"

Honestly, I've bought those excuses over and over, and over, and over and now I'm damn sick of it. No more excuses. If the project was too big, too ambitious, too expensive, blah, blah, blah... then they shouldn't have taken it up by themselves in the first place. If this project is as overwhelming as they say it is, they should AT LEAST seek out people in the Mechwarrior community who are willing to help them code within the confines of the CryTech engine or HELP with the development. And I KNOW there are hundreds (if not THOUSANDS) of people who are willing to do this! FOR FREE! It staggers the freakin' mind about how much community help they are shunting aside by ignoring the player base and developing this game by themselves.

I've had this idea for a while now, but I've proposed P.G.I. release MWO devkit builds for choice members or groups in the community so that the people who DO know how to work with the CryEngine can make and test new things within the confines of MWO. Sure, people with completely different builds from others won't be able to play with other people on the public test server, but I think testing new mechanics and recording the results on video and on paper for P.G.I. on the f*cking testing grounds would do a world of good.

View PostKassatsu, on 30 May 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

MW3 had some of the best physics I've seen in a Mechwarrior game, large weapons had noticeable recoil and wasn't automatic 100% pinpoint damage. Also knockdowns, and more dynamic turn rates based on how fast you're moving (it makes NO sense that a raven running 150 can out-turn a raven running 120 because it has a larger engine), but those are both different topics entirely.

Funny thing is, the system I proposed is BASED on MW3's mechanics.

#17 ReXspec

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:41 PM

Bump

#18 ReXspec

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:55 PM

Bump!

WITH AN ADDENDUM!

I apologize for continually bumping the thread. I'm trying to get sufficient data for this feature and it is great that I have votes from 13 people, but, for any you in statistics, that isn't a sufficient pool for collecting data. SO, to solve that, I will be inquiring with players inside the game and unofficially adding their count to the vote, and report my numbers with each successive post.

I hope to get AT LEAST 3,000 votes on this thing, but realistically, I'm probably only get 1,000 votes.

But who knows... I may be surprised by the turn out.

#19 krolmir

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:25 AM

Simple way to fix convergence is to make two weapons classes. High amperage draw and low amperage draw. It talks about this in lore saying that even just the Gauss could make the lights flicker in the cockpit, or when an Awesome fires all its PPC's it will have issues of its own from lack of current needed to run the HUD afterward. These would be the High draw weapons. AC's are both high and low draw weapons depending on caliber. LRM's and SRM's are low draw, lasers etc. So you could fire one ER/PPC and one Gauss round for a max of 25 pinpoint damage. Try to fire 2 PPC's and a Gauss slug? Energy drain causes nasty fall-off of range and damage for the PPC's, solving the Alpha problem when someone is face hugging you, but diminishing long range pin-point damage. The next step to further reduce this is to give the gauss a longer recycle time, by about 2 seconds, and get rid of that stupid charge/release mechanic. Than It cannot out DPS the AC's. Same goes for the PPC's they should have less DPS than the LGL's. You should have to give up something for the frontloaded damage.

#20 Ningyo

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:40 AM

If you are really interested in the various proposals people have made and views of the players. I did a rather comprehensive poll on this some time ago (before I took a 8 month break from the game.) it got over 100 votes and has links to many detailed proposals.

http://mwomercs.com/...48-convergence/

Not going to vote on yours though as its choices are too restrictive and except for your main proposal they are not described.

EDIT : I should note at that time 82% voted to change convergence but only a few specific methods broke 60% approval.

Edited by Ningyo, 04 June 2014 - 10:43 AM.






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