43 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 30 May 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

I thought it was FupDup?

BadSyntax's database is slightly off since it won't show everything with those auto record sheet pdf's, but here is the one from the record sheet book:



from what i understand...

-quote-

But who knows what PGI is doing... *shrug*

The PDF you have there isn't the base config of the Warhawk, that's the Prime.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 30 May 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

The PDF you have there isn't the base config of the Warhawk, that's the Prime.

SSW allows you to remove it, but I'm not too sure about it's accuracy.

[General Taskeen]

FupDup, on 30 May 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

The PDF you have there isn't the base config of the Warhawk, that's the Prime.

I know, but the base (empty) config for any of the Clan 'Mechs are not included. The variants or "configs" for them in an MWO context to me is just the same as they are for an IS 'Mech. And since you will only be able to switch pod types around and that's it.

For instance, Bad Syntax shows the Prime auto-generated sheet as this: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/2097.pdf (no computer). But without showing the TC there, it is essentially short of tonnage.

But anyways, I have no idea what PGI is doing as far as being able to remove it or not and most of this is going to be hastily thrown together and thrown out into the wild of the public with no PTS beforehand (gonna be a riot...). Only one of the Devs liked MechWarrior 3, and I doubt that's enough vocal input to make it like MW3.

Edited by General Taskeen, 30 May 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 30 May 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

I know, but the base (empty) config for any of the Clan 'Mechs are not included. The variants or "configs" for them in an MWO context to me is just the same as they are for an IS 'Mech. And since you will only be able to switch pod types around and that's it.

Switching pods is one thing you can switch, but you can also switch most of the equipment (that isn't hard wired). I.E. you can remove the ER Large Laser from the Mad Cat's arm. The TC on the Warhawk "should" be considered like any other regular equipment.

If it helps, Sarna says that the TC is present on all configs but not truly hardwired, although I'm way too lazy to dig through the internets for online PDFs of every TRO to verify.

[Khobai]

Quote

Most configs having the TC is a coincidence, not a requirement.

But on the Masakari its a requirement. Im pretty sure the TC is fixed and cant be removed. Thats why every single variant has it. Either way im sure PGI will let us remove it if it does nothing.

Edited by Khobai, 30 May 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 May 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

But on the Masakari its a requirement. the TC is fixed and cannot be removed. Every single variant has it.

Every variant having it doesn't instantly make it fixed. It's only fixed equipment if you have it on the base config. Find a PDF of the base config with a TC on it and you'd be right -- note that I already linked a PDF that shows no TC on the base. Also note that Sarna says it isn't fixed in spite of being on every variant, but I'm too lazy to hunt down the TROs to verify.

[Kassatsu]

It will disable enemy ECMs within 180 meters. Oh wait.

It will allow you to target shutdown mechs within 200 meters. Oh wait.

It will increase your sensor range. Oh wait.

Dynamic convergence (affected by targeting computer) pls.

While we're on a similar topic: Command console could be required to take company (not lance) command, and allow you to use deployable modules without requiring line-of-sight by using the battle map. Some limitations (such as not being able to place an airstrike within a set distance of a friendly mech using the map so you can't 'help' a brawler going at it without direct LoS) would be needed, but at least it would have a purpose.

EDIT - "deployable" meaning airstrikes and such of course

Edited by Kassatsu, 30 May 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[Territorial Oak]

http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=620

Doesn't seem to be listed as base configuration equipment.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

FupDup, on 30 May 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

...I'm too lazy to hunt down the TROs to verify.

I looked it up earlier. The TC is not listed as fixed.

If you still want to look it up try here.

The PDF is titled "BattleTech 35122 - Technical Readout - 3050 Upgrade-OEF"

[WonderSparks]

Just as confirmation, Sarna says "Though not truly fixed equipment on the chassis, the Warhawk managed to incorporate an advanced Targeting Computer into each of its configurations" which says to me that the TC is in fact not fixed equipment (which is what I've believed for a long time)
Also have another site with this information on it, but I can't seem to paste the URL (darn you, IE!) so you guys will just have to take my word for it...

[Sephlock]

Serpieri, on 30 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

So has PGI finally come out and tell us what it does? OR are they leaving that for a surprise on the release day?

I really hope we get the classic MW2 wireframe Image Enhancement. For one thing, it was useful. For another, it was cool. And last but not least, it may help my FPS .

[mithril coyote]

9erRed, on 30 May 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Nearly every weapon type could benefit from this system but could not be combined with different weapons.
- Later additions in the Lore listed that Pulse lasers, burst fire weapons, and LBX cluster shots could not use this targeting computer system. (due to multiple hit locations during firing. Yes, Pulse lasers actually target multiple close locations when they hit.)

more accurately, it can be used with nearly any non-missile direct fire weapon. so PPC's, lasers, autocannon, and guass rifles. (but not LRM's, SRM's, Flamers, or machineguns)

what it does in tabletop is improve the pilots targeting with a bonus to hit (-1 to the to hit dice roll, which is very good on a 2D6), and you could opt to target specific locations (aside from the head), albeit at a steep penalty. and any weapon that was elgible to use it could be used with it at the sametime.. so you could fire that LB10X plus the 2 ERLL's on a warhawk A no problem. the only real issue was that scatter weapons like LBX AC's or UAC;s on rapid fire couldn't be used for targeting specific locations. (so you could fire at the whole target with cluster rounds or a UAC on rapid and get the bonus.. but could aim specifically for a leg or arm only) pulse lasers had the same limit.. no real in universe reason, that addition was done in more recent rules editions to deal with the fact pulse lasers got a -2 to hit already, and that would negate nearly all the penalty for targeting specific locations. the rules change was made to balance things a bit. that was also the same time they put in the "can't target the head" part.. too many people using clan PPC's and TC's to headcap opponents from across the board.
in the novels and short stories published, targeting computers were usually depicted as just more powerful versions of the standard aiming systems of a mech.. instead of the pilot just putting the crosshairs over the target, there was a "lock on" effect to show when the computer had a good firing solution, though if the lock failed it reverted to the standard style aiming for the shot.

it also represents a lot more than just a computer.. the mass and bulk on the record sheets are a stand in for improved actuator controls, better spatial attitude sensors, gyro-stabalization systems, and other such things that help determine more accurate aim.

in MWO, i suspect it will be a aiming aid that adjusts for target movement and allows specific hit boxes to be highlighted. possibly it'll set itself based on whatever weapons dominate the selected weapons grouping.

Edited by mithril coyote, 30 May 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[CheeseThief]

The targeting computer will be removable because its size and weight are dependent on the mechs mounted weapons. Also the Adder Prime has a targeting computer but the other variants don't, so it's not hard wired to the chassis.

[mithril coyote]

CheeseThief, on 30 May 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

The targeting computer will be removable because its size and weight are dependent on the mechs mounted weapons. Also the Adder Prime has a targeting computer but the other variants don't, so it's not hard wired to the chassis.

people are just worried due to misunderstanding the warhawk/masakari. which mounts a TC in all its configs. they just don't notice the tonnage and crits in each config is totally different.. its not fixed equipment, just a design choice.

[Zeriniel]

Quote

(...any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside...

I think the issue is people are missing what General Taskeen quoted. It's not that "its hard wired in lore" that is the issue.It's that PGI stated the above.

Edited by Zeriniel, 30 May 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

9erRed, on 30 May 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Nearly every weapon type could benefit from this system but could not be combined with different weapons.
- Later additions in the Lore listed that Pulse lasers, burst fire weapons, and LBX cluster shots could not use this targeting computer system. (due to multiple hit locations during firing. Yes, Pulse lasers actually target multiple close locations when they hit.)

When did they change this? Just out of general curiousity, was wondering when they changed this, as they were just listed as pulse weapons, instead of Rapid Fire weapons that used the cluster table in Total Warfare?

[Koniks]

Zeriniel, on 30 May 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

I think the issue is people are missing what General Taskeen quoted. It's not that "its hard wired in lore" that is the issue.It's that PGI stated the above.

The base chassis isn't the same as the Prime Configuration. You can see that here.

Mechs with locked equipment:
The Summoner and Nova base chassis have 5 jump jets in their legs and center torso. Those will likely be locked on all variants. So the Summoner has 22.5 tons of pod space before adjusting armor. The Nova has 16 tons of pod space left.

The Adder has 1 flamer, so it will have 16 tons of pod space left.


Mechs with no weapons or equipment locked to the base chassis so they have the following amounts of customizable pod space available before adjusting armor:
Timber Wolf - 27.5 tons..
Dire Wolf - 50.5 tons.
Warhawk - 32.5 tons.
Stormcrow - 23 tons
Kit Fox - 16 tons

Edited by Mizeur, 30 May 2014 - 11:16 PM.

[Zeriniel]

I stand corrected I missed that in the discussion. Thanks Mizeur.

[Strum Wealh]

WonderSparks, on 30 May 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just as confirmation, Sarna says "Though not truly fixed equipment on the chassis, the Warhawk managed to incorporate an advanced Targeting Computer into each of its configurations" which says to me that the TC is in fact not fixed equipment (which is what I've believed for a long time)
Also have another site with this information on it, but I can't seem to paste the URL (darn you, IE!) so you guys will just have to take my word for it...

In BattleTech, the Targeting Computer is described as "fixed equipment" on the Masakari; it is present in the Right Torso of each and every configuration (in contrast to the Puma, where only two of the eight configurations mount a TC), and the background of the 'Mech states (on page 38 of the original TRO 3050 AND on page 38 of TRO 3050 (Revised)), "The 'Mech carries an advanced targeting computer, which apparently comes as standard equipment in all configurations. Though the computer must be modified for different weapons arrays, the basic computing boards appear to be built into the OmniMech's frame."

The TC is an oddity because its weight and volume (crits) are dependent on the weight of the installed weapons (specifically, "all direct-fire, non-missile heavy weapons (not counting Machine Guns, Flamers, or TAG systems)" - pg. 238 of TechManual); if one were to create al all-missile loadout for the Masakari, the TC would still technically be there ("...the basic computing boards appear to be built into the OmniMech's frame..."), but it would have no effect on the performance of the missiles (nor would it take up any notable tonnage or space).

PGI has indicated that they currently intend to honor the BT rules for fixed equipment on OmniMechs; it will be interesting to see how they address the issue of the Masakari's Targeting Computer (especially if/how it would be changing tonnage as loadout changes).

[mithril coyote]

Strum Wealh, on 31 May 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

In BattleTech, the Targeting Computer is described as "fixed equipment" on the Masakari; it is present in the Right Torso of each and every configuration (in contrast to the Puma, where only two of the eight configurations mount a TC), and the background of the 'Mech states (on page 38 of the original TRO 3050 AND on page 38 of TRO 3050 (Revised)), "The 'Mech carries an advanced targeting computer, which apparently comes as standard equipment in all configurations. Though the computer must be modified for different weapons arrays, the basic computing boards appear to be built into the OmniMech's frame."

The TC is an oddity because its weight and volume (crits) are dependent on the weight of the installed weapons (specifically, "all direct-fire, non-missile heavy weapons (not counting Machine Guns, Flamers, or TAG systems)" - pg. 238 of TechManual); if one were to create al all-missile loadout for the Masakari, the TC would still technically be there ("...the basic computing boards appear to be built into the OmniMech's frame..."), but it would have no effect on the performance of the missiles (nor would it take up any notable tonnage or space).

PGI has indicated that they currently intend to honor the BT rules for fixed equipment on OmniMechs; it will be interesting to see how they address the issue of the Masakari's Targeting Computer (especially if/how it would be changing tonnage as loadout changes).

FASA and catalyst made sure there was errata available for this.. basically the TC is from the omnipod space.
as they explained, the basic connectors and motherboards are built in, but they are effectively a 0 ton 0 crit item the TC parts connect to. so you can make a warhawk without a TC.. its just no one has in canon.