118 replies to this topic

[TimePeriod]

Gentlemen, let's face it.

Pinpoint damage setup in all its combinations is on the rise across the board. The time for blaming is over and we must now find a solution to the issue. Since I have yet to see any kind of responce from PGI to this rise in pinpoint damage I will assume that PGI is either incapable or unwilling to respond to this issue.

I would like to raise some attention to all the posts you may have found around on the forums for possible solutions. Everything goes as far as I know, don't hold back.

Important notice:
Please refrain from bashing any suggestions people may bring here. This is an attempt to figure out what choices/options there is to this issue.

Links to current topics, websites for guides and everything in between.

Edited by TimePeriod, 01 June 2014 - 12:47 AM.

[Eddrick]

Bring back Delayed Convergance
No Convergance at all
Convergance only with Arms
Burst Fire A/Cs
Recoil
Splash Damage PPCs
PPC Damage Arcing
Shotgun Spread PPCs
PPC Charge mechanic simlar to the Gauss Rifle

I'm sure there is more. This is what I could remember off the top of my head.

[Captain Stiffy]

I always aim for damaged areas as a matter of habit with any weapon. Glancing blows are largely worthless. Saving your heat for when your shots matter and evenly distributing damage is the way to go.

Target info gathering is OP.

[Eddrick]

Cone of fire
Cone of hit
Homelessbill's Targeting Computer solution
Remove Group Fire

Edited by Eddrick, 31 May 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[Pht]

http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/

In short, have the 'Mechs perform in combat Like they do in the lore.

If you want really long and detailed: go above.

This is not a new thing, it's been discussed almost since the MWO forums came up and it was discussed in MW4.

Edited by Pht, 31 May 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[Eddrick]

Another one was to take aim compleatly out of the players hands and replace it with RGN. Dependant on holding retical over the target, of course. Like with Streaks.

[cSand]

Eddrick, on 31 May 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Another one was to take aim compleatly out of the players hands and replace it with RGN. Dependant on holding retical over the target, of course. Like with Streaks.

lol

good idea




Seriously though

Pinpoint is not that big a deal. Keep moving, use your torso twist and play smarter

Edited by cSand, 31 May 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Cone of fire mechanic [expanding convergence. Tightens "cone" longer you stay on target]
Burst fire AC's
Recoil
Damage arcing PPC's.

[Eddrick]

My personal favorite is what Chromehounds did. Weapons stop convergin at the edges of the Targeting Retical.

@ cSand: Pinpoint isn't that big of a deal to me either. I'm just throwing out the many solutions to PInpoint that people have came up with, like the OP asked.

[Kassatsu]

Unfortunately this is now call of duty in giant robots without the reticle bloom and any changes to how things work will probably drive more players away than it keeps/attracts (I doubt this game will attract more than a tiny handful of new players at this point anyways), it literally can't afford to drive any more players away, though that is inevitable regardless.

I wouldn't mind seeing dynamic convergence come back, you know, like before HSR where it was possible to miss because your weapons were realigning themselves to your 200 meter target immediately after firing at an enemy 800 meters out. That elite proficiency wouldn't be completely worthless either.

[Mystere]

I have just one comment. What does Microsoft have to do with anything? They have no involvement with the game development. They just own the license.

[Octavian]

The quick fix to poptarting would be to increase screen shake from using jumpjets. Basically make it completely impossible to do anything but spray and pray in the air.

[Pht]

Eddrick, on 31 May 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Another one was to take aim compleatly out of the players hands and replace it with RGN. Dependant on holding retical over the target, of course. Like with Streaks.

... I've never seen anyone propse that one. Got link?

cSand, on 31 May 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

Seriously though

Pinpoint is not that big a deal. Keep moving, use your torso twist and play smarter

If it's not that big of a deal, how did it spawn ghost heat, triple refire rates, doubled external armor and internal structure numbers, and scads of weapons tweaks?

All that aside; the game isn't fully living up to the potential of the lore because of this particular issue.

The 'mechs just don't "do" combat like they do in the lore.

Octavian, on 31 May 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

The quick fix to poptarting would be to increase screen shake from using jumpjets. Basically make it completely impossible to do anything but spray and pray in the air.

You could, but than what would you do with hill/wall humpers, who equally meta-game the pinpoint capability... just from on the ground, instead of in the air? They can be equally hard to retailate against.

[SirLANsalot]

Pulling the later half of a post I just put up talking about this else where lol.

Quote

Adding any random anything, even if its controllable, is not what PGI wants for this game, and it will never happen because of that. Do I want ghost heat changed and removed from certain weapons? Absolutely, will it ever happen? Maybe, but at least I know PGI isn't 100% set against changes to that system. Where as with CoF or Heat Based inaccuracy or movement based, PGI doesn't want to put that in, plus they already have stated that the game itself cannot do it either (with the way this games been written it cannot be done). Also it feels good when you take a shot and it lands right where you wanted it to, rather then the game saying "nope it missed because you were not standing still" or "nope you missed because you were running too hot". It also brings the human element into the game more, by making your shots your own responsibility, if you missed, its your own damn fault you missed.



There are ways to increase TTK without touching accuracy or weapon cool downs or anything (again things that HURT the player base and game play). You CAN increase the armor values again, and increase the internal HP of the mechs. It "bends" the base rules of TT (which this game isn't) but makes for better game play within MWO itself. Adding more HP for enemy's to chew though will greatly increase TTK without changing any major components of the game. It also would slightly shift the "meta" as it were, toward more DPS weapons and less alpha guns. Thus giving the game that slug fest feel that it lacks right now.

TL;DR Game cannot handle adding in RnG/CoF whatever.

[Eddrick]

Pht, on 31 May 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

... I've never seen anyone propse that one. Got link?

I'm not sure if the idea was origenaly his. But, here is where I heard it from. From the PPC Damage Delivery thread, about PPC Damage Arcing.

IceCase88, on 29 May 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Most of these ideas are way to overly complicated and probably difficult to implement.  Especially when you are talking about splash damage which has been a thorn in PG's rear end.  The key to ending the metas and high pinpoint alphas is instituting a random hit mechanic like in TT and how SSRMs currently function.  It is the only option which is proven to work and currently implemented in the game.  Using it for all weapons should be fairly easy to do and it will end all of these calls for nerf this, buff that, and change the meta.  It would end the ridiculous ghost heat, the stupid gauss charge, and all the QQing about high pinpoint alphas.  They could even lower armor values a bit.  The random hit mechanic would solve weapons convergence issues and high pinpoint alphas immediately and end the dreadful meta.  Weapons values can return to normal and the devs won't get bogged down in weapons balancing, buffing, fixes, and nerfing.  You say, "But I want to hit what I am aiming at."...  then you are for high pinpoint alphas, constant demands for weapons buffing, nerfing, and fixes.  Changing the PPC into another LBX is not the answer.  Heck, it should probably even solve the hit registration problems seeing as SSRMs seem to function pretty well.

[Davers]

Pht, on 31 May 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

... I've never seen anyone propse that one. Got link?

He proposed it right there

Pinpoint is here to stay, unfortunately.

Even if they made all ACs burst fire and PPCs "arcing", the best way to use those weapons would still be jump sniping.

[CeeKay Boques]

Here is my problem with any of this.

Right now, as a pilot you are trying to pin point fire your shots to a wounded torso/arm leg etc. This takes effort, precision, and concentration, especially if you are moving. (blah blah not as much as flying the space shuttle, but more than moving your guy in Diablo)

If pin point doesn't matter... what are you doing instead? What video game action are you doing when where your shots can't pinpoint?

Its a major, major game mechanic, one that activates and engages your brain. What are you going to be doing instead? People just want it to go away without replacing a skill/intensity/meaning thing to do.

[Punkass]

*SIGH* Here we go again....

Weren't we having this same conversation last year? You know, when poptart highlanders and hex ppc stalkers were melting faces from across the battle field? Now, admittedly, I felt that altering instant convergence was a sort of convoluted idea. At the time, I felt that the issue was simply an issue with PPCs specially, and the best solution was to change heat, projectile speed, range ect. Basically, just altering a few parameters of a single weapon instead of altering an entire game mechanic.

I'll be the first to admit, I was wrong. Between the introduction of Ghost Heat, JJ Shake, and PPCs having their projectile speed and heat generation nerfed, we're back in the same place we were a year ago. At this point, I'll gladly eat my words and push for Homeless Bill's convergence solution. It seems like the best solution to deal with pinpoint damage and jump sniping.

A year ago the community came together to debate how to deal with the PPC/Jump Snipe meta, and the multiple solutions that were presented were ignored. Even when Paul had hinted at introducing a heat scale for firing off multiples of the same weapon, the community largely rejected it. The solutions that were implemented are at this point, mostly circumvented, and thereby ineffective. What does all this mean?

PGI doesn't care. They don't care about the solutions that the community puts forward. We have Ghost Heat. That's solution. Even if it's ineffective, it's existence will always be justified by the fact that it was implemented in the first place. It is institutionalized.

[wolf74]

I will Give Player Pin point convergence, but they have to Control the Convergence Point. (AKA you the player must Pick How Far out the weapons cross in front of you. Also to help Keep LRMs from becoming OP, they would Get the Streak Treatment for Location lockon. For LRM Fired with out a Lock a High Arc Flight than Drop at the Set Convergence point, these would aloud LRM to do a Over the Hill shot.

[stjobe]

Pinpoint damage by itself isn't a huge issue; it becomes a huge issue in combination with instant convergence and front-loaded damage only available to a select few weapon systems (ACs/PPCs/Gauss).

The devs have so far been unwilling or incapable of dealing with
1. Pinpoint accuracy
2. Instant convergence
3. Front-loaded damage on ACs, PPCs, and Gauss.

This means that those three weapon systems (and mainly the ACs and PPCs) are inherently better than all other weapon systems simply due to the way the game works and how they deal their damage.

All other weapon systems spread their damage in some way - missiles and LBX by missile spread, lasers by beam duration, MG and Flamer by cone of fire and continuous-fire mechanic - but ACs and PPCs do not spread their damage at all. They let you put all your damage instantly in one location without any recourse for the target, and they let you do so at range, while both you and your target are moving.

No other weapon systems can do this.

Is it any wonder they are the "meta" and have been for such a long time?

My preferred solution to this is to make these weapon systems spread their damage just like all the other weapon systems; make ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration weapons (there's plenty of lore backing this implementation, it's simply the way these weapons are supposed to behave).

Alas, it will not happen and we will never have anything approaching weapons balance.

More's the pity.