56 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Do you think a full maxed loyality level gives too much benefits in the example (first post), or do you think this would help to balance the cost of mechs vs the repair&rearm cost ?

[Shae Starfyre]

I am expecting a long term game plan in play:

I consider us all still in a type of Beta mode; and we are also all in a sense founder types experimenting with the technologies available. We are also, should the long game plan be realized, the heros of the universe, being those that new blood will aspire towards.

If we get all those hundreds of maps, new mechs, new weapon systems (same systems, different manufacturers with different effects), a stellar/interactive map, and all the bells and whistles, this game's population may explode, and we, the heros/founders/who persevered, will become the minority in a sea of hundreds of thousands attempting to influence the flow of domination.

Edited by Aphoticus, 29 July 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Now with the first infos about CW Phase2, there seems to be no economy yet.
Hopefully the phase3 will include economy similar to described here.

Maybe even split all mechs into unlockable tiers depending on your faction.
imagine some trees like this (please excuse the use of WT picture)

Spoiler

You choose your faction (see the bar below) and you start with unlocked "starter" machines that you own (like trial mechs).
You need to play in one of the lanes to unlock the next machine and then buy it if you want.

I thought that the system could be used similar to this, but instead of just unlocking one machine, you unlock a group of machines, as MWO is not tiered and all machines are equally usefull (on paper).
So the tiers would be the faction mechs and the non faction mechs, where the choice of faction at the start just changes the order of your "talent tree" to unlock the mechs.

So lets say, you start as a Draconis soldier and start with 4 trial mechs: Jenner, Cicada, Dragon, Awesome (examples).
You own the Kurita variant of these mechs and the other variants are unlocked.
For certain levels (lets call them player levels) you unlock another group of mechs.

There could be a few ways, either you just progress until you have all (like in the picture),
or you could have the choice which faction specific "tree" you want to unlock next.
or a combination, where you unlock a very big group of mechs, but have to unlock other variants of these mechs.
e.g. you start with the Kurita tree as a Kurita player (with the above mentioned mechs), but you own the Jenner K, and need to unlock the other Jenners before you can use/buy them.

This is just an idea to "limit" the choices for the start.
It would be hard to pull off without looking too grindy, but all other games do it already and people still play them alot.
Obviously you would want to seperate battles of new players with others as much as you can with the MM.

Edit:
example of 5-Tier for Mechs could look like this:

Edited by Reno Blade, 11 September 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[PANZERKAT]

Discounts being a deciding factor in a game where you aren't replacing destroyed gear is pointless. Most of the people playing have decent stables. Though an interesting feature, it's very much a sprinkle of what should be considered. I also doubt they'll discount mechs more than what they give when they put on a sale, if they do it at all.

Staying away from mech discounts makes sense. Module discounts due to the factories you control, now that sounds interesting.

[Reno Blade]

KOMMISSAR KITTY, on 11 September 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Discounts being a deciding factor in a game where you aren't replacing destroyed gear is pointless. Most of the people playing have decent stables. Though an interesting feature, it's very much a sprinkle of what should be considered. I also doubt they'll discount mechs more than what they give when they put on a sale, if they do it at all.

Staying away from mech discounts makes sense. Module discounts due to the factories you control, now that sounds interesting.

Thats one thing for most of us with lots of mechs.
Ofc, the whole economy would need RnR or it would be useless for anyone with enough mechs already.
And thats the reason I had added the "idea" of dropship mode for the progress of an invasion/campaign with repair and rearm.

Quote

Example:
Say, your Atlas got destroyed (Status is 20% total) and the contractor repairs 20% of the mech for free for each round ( battle this mech is not used) and you could repair up to 50% extra per round.
This would make sure you always have something to fight in, even with only basic repairs done, if you don't have many mechs, Dropship slots, or not enough Cbills to repair (because you lost too often).

You decide to bring a Victor for the second battle and pay for maximum available repair from your own or your units CBill bank.
After the second battle, the Atlas (from 20%) will get 20% repaired by the contractor to bring the Atlas structure, armor and ammo up to 40% status.
You decide to also repair the full additional 50% by yourself to a maximum of 90% armor, ammo and structure values.
You can now decide if you want to spend another round for repair, or take the Atlas with 90% repair into the 3rd battle and repair your Victor, or take any other mech from your Dropship slots.

[Syrkres]

Problem with how CW is currently looking to implement, it's just going to be a 3 day tournament (whenever PGI wants to have one)

For example, PGI says ok battle has started on planet X. The history shows that it was defended by IS, but what happens if Clans take it. PGI will simply have the next cycle - re-battle for planet X until the outcome is what they want. They they move to another planet.

By not putting the control into the population base you are taking out the "world/universe" changes. It's a game played by PGI.

But by having cycles/seasons, you could easily allow the players to determine which planet is attacked, and have "goals", if a team or faction controls too much they win.

[Gyrok]

They already said a 12 man group can initiate attack on a planet...

[Reno Blade]

It took some time, but I changed the layout of the Mech tree into this:

[General Taskeen]

Is that graphic just an example?

Just some nitpicks (unless this is derived from that not very well researched list Paul posted)

- HGN-732 is not Steiner, that would be a "faction" mech for Draconis Combine (gifted to them by ComStar, its a rare mech variant from the Star League Era and basically extinct)
- A "tier 1" Highlander would be the HGN-733, which was common for the following factions: Liao and Steiner only, however Kurita received a bunch of HGN-733 by the 3050s
- HGN-733C and 733P were rare or non-existent for other Factions, but were used by both Steiner and Liao (less rare for Liao), obviously in smaller numbers than the 733 (so that listing is more or less correct in the Steiner "tree")
- AWS-9M was more rare than the AWS-8T (8T, 8V, and 8R were all the same "rarity" across multiple factions), as a rule of thumb Mechs that were being produced between 3040s and up to 3050 were very rare in 3049/3050 and became a lot less rare by 3055 and 3057

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 September 2014 - 12:29 PM.

[CocoaJin]

TKSax, on 02 June 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

Anything said about CW in the past can always be dismissed as "That was our position at the time".

CW is probably going to be a dissapointment, probably just a big map, that moves when you win or lose playing for a faction, besides that its going to be just like the current que. I hope I am wrong but....

Why even put the negativity out there if in the end you hope it's not? What's the purpose? what good comes out of just dropping a nega-bomb just 'cause?

Hope is supposed to be a good thing, it's supposed to keep you strong when things look bad, keep you striving when you have little to your name, keep you engaged when things get hard. It doesn't do its job if you have it, then poop on it?

Edited by CocoaJin, 12 September 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Reno Blade]

General Taskeen, on 12 September 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Is that graphic just an example?

Just some nitpicks (unless this is derived from that not very well researched list Paul posted)

- HGN-732 is not Steiner, that would be a "faction" mech for Draconis Combine (gifted to them by ComStar, its a rare mech variant from the Star League Era and basically extinct)
- A "tier 1" Highlander would be the HGN-733, which was common for the following factions: Liao and Steiner only, however Kurita received a bunch of HGN-733 by the 3050s
- HGN-733C and 733P were rare or non-existent for other Factions, but were used by both Steiner and Liao (less rare for Liao), obviously in smaller numbers than the 733 (so that listing is more or less correct in the Steiner "tree")
- AWS-9M was more rare than the AWS-8T (8T, 8V, and 8R were all the same "rarity" across multiple factions), as a rule of thumb Mechs that were being produced between 3040s and up to 3050 were very rare in 3049/3050 and became a lot less rare by 3055 and 3057

Thanks for the input.
I checked a few posts about faction mech lists, but sometimes i moved mechs from the "general" list to faction lists, so there would be a progression, like the Awesomes.
Ofc the "right" way to do it would be in the Dev's hands. This should show how it "could" look

[Reno Blade]

Back in the time of the 4th succession war, where Davion and Steiner formed their aliance by mariage, there were only these two blocks of power:
Steiner+Davion (later forming the Federated Commonwealth)
Liao, Kurita, Marik

But now in 3050 with the FRR and maybe a tiered progression like this:

how would we split the factions/mechs for Tier2 and Tier3?
Liao and Kurita or Liao and Marik?
Marik and FRR?
Or all 4 together as allied factions vs the Fedcom?

[Joseph Mallan]

Reno Blade, on 02 June 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors!

Let's collect all the ideas and expectations for the differences between Factions and what kind of effects CW (and loyality) would have for you and your house/faction.

1.) Would you expect/want to have a noticable difference if you choose Davion over Liao?
What would that be?

2.) If your faction conquered a big part of the Inner Sphere, what would you expect/want the effects to be?


SHORT Example:
Playing Liao would give you a discount of 10-30% to any "-L" mech variant.
Bonus/Discount amount is dependent on Loyality points.
Bonus/Discount amount is dependent on conquered planets.

Playing as Davion, conquering a Planet with a factory of Liao Mechs would give you x% of the same effect (like 10% less for -L variants) for each mech type created in this factory.

This is just an example to get this discussion started.

My expectation/wish with numbers and detailed examples.

Spoiler

IF we will have R&R in CW mode, I would want it like this:

Faction specific variants and weapons would have 20% reduced price, repair and customization cost. Includes modules (like weapon modules).
Gaining higher reputation (loyalty points) the % would rise further.
Gaining higher reputation would also increase income from contracts (for mercs) or defending the borders (for house and lonewolfes).

In addition (example numbers) each house has a base bonus to certain technology (not variant dependent):
Steiner would have 5% better prices for the black market (all off-house items) and 15% for assault mechs
Davion would have 10% better prices for medium and heavy mechs, 15% for ACs
Liao would have 10% better prices for light and heavy mechs, 15% for Equipment (ECM, BAP, TAG), LRMs
Marik would have 15% better prices for heavy mechs and 20% for Laser
Kurita would have 10% better prices for light, medium and heavy mechs and 10% for PPCs
FRR would have 15% better prices for medium mechs and 15% for SRMs and Airstrikes

Note:
Mech discounts are for the chassis without any equipment only.
Variant discounts count for the complete stock mech variant. (Additional/changed weapons will not be affected after purchase by this bonus)


Advancing on the borders would slightly alter the % (1% per planet).
Certain planets (behind borders) which can be invaded by mercenaries can gain extra effects like
- variant XYZ bonus
- certain weapon or equipment types get cheaper
- transport cost (for starsystem with a space station or space dock) reduced




For example:

You are a Steiner pilot and you want to buy a new mech.
You would have 15% off for any assault mech and 5% off for anything else.
You decide to buy an 80 ton Zeus Steiner assault mech and would gain the 15% Steiner assault mech discount plus the 20% Steiner-Variant discount for a total of 35% off.
Now your friends conquered 10 planets in the last month and slaughtered many innocent evil kurita pilots.
These 10 planets give you additional 10% off for any transaction and you will pay only 45% of the original price for your 80t Zeus assault mech.

In addition you hold a planet with a space station that grants you 20% less travel costs and a planet with a factory for PPCs that grants you 20% reduced cost for PPCs and their repair and customization costs.
You will equip your Zeus with a brand new PPC for 25% off the price (5% black market Steiner bonus + 20% planetary bonus).

After a battle you can repair your PPC for 25% less again.
The chassis (Internals and armor) will be 45% off (like when you bought the mech), but the equiped AC will only be 5% off, as it is a Davion weapon and you only get the blackmarket Steiner bonus.

After reaching the next loyality rank, the bonus of each Steiner bonus is increased by 10%.
- Steiner Blackmarket bonus 5% base + 0.5% (additional 10% of the 5% base) ( for non-Steiner equipment. not added to the total for a Steiner variant)
- Steiner Assault bonus of 15% base + 1.5% (10% of 15%)
- Steiner Variant bonus of 20% base + 2.0% (10% of 25%)
- 10 planet bonus of 10% total (no loyalty bonus)
Total: 45% + 3.5% = 48.5% (for steiner assault variants)


Quick timewarp to the future:
You rised to loyalty rank 5 (max) with house Steiner and helped conquer 30 planets from Clan Jade Falcon and gained the Rank of Duke of the Isle of Sky.
- Steiner Blackmarket bonus 5% base + 2.5% (5 level for 10% each = 50% extra) =7.5% ( for non-Steiner equipment. not added to the total for a Steiner variant)
- Steiner Assault bonus of 15% base + 7.5% (5x 1.5%) = 22.5%
- Steiner Variant bonus of 20% base + 10% (5x 2%) = 30%
- 30 planet bonus of 30% total (no loyalty bonus)
Total: 65% + 17.5% = 82.5% discount for Steiner assault variants

And as a Duke, your bonus is calculated as if your loyalty level would be one level higher (max +1) = level 6.
(I see this as the maximum for a player to reach)
- Steiner Blackmarket bonus 5% base + 3% (6 level for 10% each = 50% extra) =7.5% ( for non-Steiner equipment. not added to the total for a Steiner variant)
- Steiner Assault bonus of 15% base + 9% (6x 1.5%) = 24%
- Steiner Variant bonus of 20% base + 12% (6x 2%) = 32%
- 30 planet bonus of 30% total (no loyalty bonus)
Total: 65% + 21% = 86% discount for Steiner assault variants

for any assault mech: 24% (assault) +30% (planets) = 54%
for any steiner non-assault mech variant: 32% (variant) + 30% (planets) = 62%
for any non-assault and non-steiner variant: 8% (black market) + 30% (planets) = 38%

Edit: 2014-06-19
Added dropship mode with repair and rearm examples.

Spoiler

I could see something added like this:

To fight for a planet, you would start a "campaign" or "invasion".
This would be a series of fights that would need to be completed to a certain degree (say 10 battles in a timeframe of 1 day).

You would need to bring X mechs per player (up to 8 dropship slots were mentioned in one of the CC posts about CW).
You would have certain contract or campaign variables including:
- income per battle
- % of lost structure/ammo/armor repaired by contractor
- price for repair and rearm depending on standing to the contractor (see Faction/House bonus above)
Between the battles, you would then get % of the repairs for each round (a round= battle the mech is not used) and can speed up remaining repair and rearm with your CBills.
Repair and Rearm might be limited to certain maximum per round.

Example:
Say, your Atlas got destroyed (Status is 20% total) and the contractor repairs 20% of the mech for free for each round ( battle this mech is not used) and you could repair up to 50% extra per round.
This would make sure you always have something to fight in, even with only basic repairs done, if you don't have many mechs, Dropship slots, or not enough Cbills to repair (because you lost too often).

You decide to bring a Victor for the second battle and pay for maximum available repair from your own or your units CBill bank.
After the second battle, the Atlas (from 20%) will get 20% repaired by the contractor to bring the Atlas structure, armor and ammo up to 40% status.
You decide to also repair the full additional 50% by yourself to a maximum of 90% armor, ammo and structure values.
You can now decide if you want to spend another round for repair, or take the Atlas with 90% repair into the 3rd battle and repair your Victor, or take any other mech from your Dropship slots.

Edit 2014-09-12: Added graphic for Mech tree

Davion: mostly Heavy Mechs with a bunch of ACs
Liao: Medium Mech Force with well balanced weapons.
Steiner: Heavy-Assault Force with Missiles and ACs prominent.
Kurita: Medium Heavy Cavalry force with a leaning towards PPCs
Marik: Well balanced across the board.

Ghost Bears/Smoke Jaguar: Heavy Assault Omnis With the Bears having a secondary focus on Lights
Jade Falcon: Heavy Jump Cavalry
Wolf: Medium/Heavy Cavalry

[Bhodi Li773]

FACTIONS

For each faction I expect they will use achievements /reward system already in place to give benefits to players.Defend steiner/liao/marik for specificrewards to that faction(cbills ,Gxp,weps, salvage parts mechs/ purchase mech parts at discount..Destroy 50 LIAO light components receive "X".defend 10 planet in battle, etc get increasing Cbill rewards..This could apply to all players not just a specific faction.So LNW /casual players have something to gain for fighting. Specific faction players would qualify for a specific faction reward along with this.( Kill 10 enemy mech and get badges ,mech/parts/cockpit items /paintjob/camo etc.) This system is already in place so expanding on it should be less demanding on the programming side of things.

COMMUNITY WARFARE

I n CW I would expect something similar.(DEF LIAO in CW vs Clan 10 times get gxpc/bills/% discount on Specific items produced by that faction ). This way you have a generic reward achievement for LNW/casual players then an extra achievement/ reward you are completing for each specific faction in CW.

In addition to that ,if clan Wolf/Steiner/etc showed the highest atttack/ defense participation then their rewards would be scaled to represent that.This way people would be motivated to defend Hi tech/resource rich planets vs lo tech /resource planets.Get 25/15/5 % reduction on Rand R for highest participation def/attack a certain planet. Lo tech planets rewards could be more strategic, reducing dropship costs to get to a planet bc its closer/higher payload of Consumables for RandR bc usng less fuel to get there . This way clans/houses have reason to attack both kinds of planets.We need to attack and take X,Y the Z to get to Luthien or we could try to "flank" them by taking E,F,G then H.Space is 3D not 2D.

[terrycloth]

Discounts on stuff is kind of meh as a reward since it's endgame content. You want to already have mechs kitted out before going into CW.

Faction-specific modules for helping capture a planet might work. Consumables that do weird things? Or weapon modules that you can only use as long as your faction holds the planet?

Cockpit items might be a neat thing to get, too. "Here's the souvenier you got after you successfully defended the planet! It's a banner that says 'I defended Rassalhague from the clans and all I got was this stupid banner'."

[Reno Blade]

terrycloth, on 03 October 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Discounts on stuff is kind of meh as a reward since it's endgame content. You want to already have mechs kitted out before going into CW.

Faction-specific modules for helping capture a planet might work. Consumables that do weird things? Or weapon modules that you can only use as long as your faction holds the planet?

Cockpit items might be a neat thing to get, too. "Here's the souvenier you got after you successfully defended the planet! It's a banner that says 'I defended Rassalhague from the clans and all I got was this stupid banner'."

In my first post I included an invasion/campaign with R&R that does not give you full repair rights for each contract.
In theory, the lower costs for mechs and certain equip per faction could give the whole economy some backbone.

Quote

I could see something added like this:

To fight for a planet, you would start a "campaign" or "invasion".
This would be a series of fights that would need to be completed to a certain degree (say 10 battles in a timeframe of 1 day).

You would need to bring X mechs per player (up to 8 dropship slots were mentioned in one of the CC posts about CW).
You would have certain contract or campaign variables including:
- income per battle
- % of lost structure/ammo/armor repaired by contractor
- price for repair and rearm depending on standing to the contractor (see Faction/House bonus above)
Between the battles, you would then get % of the repairs for each round (a round= battle the mech is not used) and can speed up remaining repair and rearm with your CBills.
Repair and Rearm might be limited to certain maximum per round.

Example:
Say, your Atlas got destroyed (Status is 20% total) and the contractor repairs 20% of the mech for free for each round ( battle this mech is not used) and you could repair up to 50% extra per round.
This would make sure you always have something to fight in, even with only basic repairs done, if you don't have many mechs, Dropship slots, or not enough Cbills to repair (because you lost too often).

You decide to bring a Victor for the second battle and pay for maximum available repair from your own or your units CBill bank.
After the second battle, the Atlas (from 20%) will get 20% repaired by the contractor to bring the Atlas structure, armor and ammo up to 40% status.
You decide to also repair the full additional 50% by yourself to a maximum of 90% armor, ammo and structure values.
You can now decide if you want to spend another round for repair, or take the Atlas with 90% repair into the 3rd battle and repair your Victor, or take any other mech from your Dropship slots.

[Tezcatli]

Maybe they'll start introducing new variants that are specific to planets on the map. Since it would be easier to do then introducing whole new mechs that would require creating new mech assets.