131 replies to this topic

[Dymlos2003]

Khobai, on 03 June 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

It really wasnt. Not in closed beta at least. Gauss didnt become problematic until PPCs were buffed and the combination of Gauss/PPC pushed Gauss over the top. That didnt happen in closed beta though. Closed beta had the best weapon balance in the history of this game.

You have problem with your memory then. We took advantage of the broken-ness of these weapons back then. Does no one remember one shotting atlas' in the head?

Edited by Dymlos2003, 03 June 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

And "gasp" it could be today! But people are boring! All my builds are diverse and I don't care if I'm in high elo or low elo. I play cause I have fun with my builds.

Seriously though. It was mostly SRMs(Streaks as well) and Gauss Rifles. I know you like to think everything was better in CB but it really was the same just different flavor.

How many SRMs did you see being used in the finals of the MWO Team Tournament?

HOW MANY?

NONE. Because when you play to win, you realize they are crap!

Playing to win is NOT boring! I find winning far more interesting than losing and staring at a stupid screen watching other people play.

What IS boring is being forced to play a certain way (or certain few ways) to win. Now, to the Lords credit, they did brawl in at least one drop I watched--but the entire team was doing this. And it was CLOSE.

Try doing that in a PUG. It isn't going to happen. Most of the people in PUGs hide behind a hill in terror because they know these sharp pointy things called PPCs + ACs tear their life away in focused damage seconds.

Fixing (restoring) SRMs back to how they were would bolster the courage of those who are accustomed to being sitting targets.

You don't just go around telling people--well, play this way and you'll be okay. You gotta forge the right tools.

And good luck convincing those of us that like to win to take something else when there clearly are good reasons to take what we do when we want it to count.

That's like trying to argue to a dude at Wimbledon--"Hah! I'm going to take a wooden racket and gimp myself on purpose. You have to take one, too!"

"No, dude. The rules say I can take what I want!"

So the anger right now is clearly aimed at PGI. Not the players. At PGI for not doing the things needed to make things fun again.

Otherwise, just expect the player to want to do whatever it takes to win. And they should. Or were you raised believing everyone gets a trophy?

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

Brawling was a big thing cause SRMs were crazy damage. No one used ACs until Ultras came out. I remember when I was telling people that ACs were actually good like today with SRMs but everyone said they were dead weight and replaced them with either Gauss or nothing at all.

I used Ultra 5 autocannons to sickening result all the way through closed beta into April of 2013, and then I switched to the CTF 3D.

[WVAnonymous]

Lyoto Machida, on 03 June 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Why would it hurt brawlers? I don't think they were firing their AC20s at 541m anyways.

In fact I regularly hit Stalkers over 540 meters with an AC20. Or did.

[Khobai]

Quote

You have problem with your memory then. We took advantage of the broken-ness of these weapons back then. Does no one remember one shotting atlas' in the head?

Because the Atlas head hitbox was enormous. They fixed it so it was just the eye and everything was fine after that.

[Mcgral18]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Ugh... I could one shot mechs, assault ones at that, with just 2 srm6s. SRMs were always broken. That's why people think that they suck today cause they don't do the death ball damage of yesteryear.

Actually, they suck because they deal small amounts of spread damage across multiple torsi, while having a slow velocity and then you have to pray to the HSR gods to hope they register.

65% hitreg is pretty poor from my experience.

They should have a faster travel speed, and also be at 3 damage since PGI removed their guidance system. For apparently less payload....how that works I'm not too sure.
http://www.sarna.net...d-Fire_Missiles


They suck because they simply can't compare. Bring them up to the viability of other weapon systems, and you might actually see them.

[lpmagic]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

Brawling was a big thing cause SRMs were crazy damage. No one used ACs until Ultras came out. I remember when I was telling people that ACs were actually good like today with SRMs but everyone said they were dead weight and replaced them with either Gauss or nothing at all.

yes, and then some things changed and you were right, but for now, srms may be "better" but they are not the game changer they need to be, I don't believe you need to Nerf the ever living s__t out of everything to balance, I believe key buffs will prove more capable of balancing things out. And, I used ac's all the time, In conjunction with srm's and lasers, that's why they were good, because they were a fast refire and low heat index weapon, allowing you combination throws that are just not available today. The splatcat was a pain and was OP but if they had just stuck with another way to nerf that bad boy, they might have left well enough alone. It is all part of balancing a very tough game, they are working towards it, I can see it, i watch it get better every patch now, and wait, hiding in the shadows, the days of knife fighting in this game are not over......

Edited by lpmagic, 03 June 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Dymlos2003]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

How many SRMs did you see being used in the finals of the MWO Team Tournament?

HOW MANY?

NONE. Because when you play to win, you realize they are crap!

Playing to win is NOT boring! I find winning far more interesting than losing and staring at a stupid screen watching other people play.

What IS boring is being forced to play a certain way (or certain few ways) to win. Now, to the Lords credit, they did brawl in at least one drop I watched--but the entire team was doing this. And it was CLOSE.

Try doing that in a PUG. It isn't going to happen. Most of the people in PUGs hide behind a hill in terror because they know these sharp pointy things called PPCs + ACs tear their life away in focused damage seconds.

Fixing (restoring) SRMs back to how they were would bolster the courage of those who are accustomed to being sitting targets.

You don't just go around telling people--well, play this way and you'll be okay. You gotta forge the right tools.

And good luck convincing those of us that like to win to take something else when there clearly are good reasons to take what we do when we want it to count.

That's like trying to argue to a dude at Wimbledon--"Hah! I'm going to take a wooden racket and gimp myself on purpose. You have to take one, too!"

"No, dude. The rules say I can take what I want!"

So the anger right now is clearly aimed at PGI. Not the players. At PGI for not doing the things needed to make things fun again.

Otherwise, just expect the player to want to do whatever it takes to win. And they should. Or were you raised believing everyone gets a trophy?



I used Ultra 5 autocannons to sickening result all the way through closed beta into April of 2013, and then I switched to the CTF 3D.

Yes, playing to win at all costs is a boring mindset hence all the boring builds. (Also why CW is going to suck) If they change all the FLD people will just flood to another boring build. That's never going to change.
I mean I play to win to but if I lose its alright with me. The best thing to do for me is to play fun, silly, unorthodox builds and destroy mechs with it.

lpmagic, on 03 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

yes, and then some things changed and you were right, but for now, srms may be "better" but they are not the game changer they need to be, I don't believe you need to Nerf the ever living s__t out of everything to balance, I believe key buffs will prove more capable of balancing things out. And, I used ac's all the time, In conjunction with srm's and lasers, that's why they were good, because they were a fast refire and low heat index weapon, allowing you combination throws that are just not available today. The splatcat was {Dezgra} and was OP but if they had just stuck with another way to nerf that bad boy, they might have left well enough alone. It is all part of balancing a very tough game, they are working towards it, I can see it, i watch it get better every patch now, and wait, hiding in the shadows, the days of knife fighting in this game are not over......

SRMs are not supposed to be a game changer. They are supposed to compliment your build which they do, wonderfully. Sure though buff them even higher and my srm builds will become unstoppable. Can't wait to see all the SRMS ARE OP threads when they do get that buff.

Edited by Dymlos2003, 03 June 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Yes, playing to win at all costs is a boring mindset hence all the boring builds. (Also why CW is going to suck) If they change all the FLD people will just flood to another boring build. That's never going to change.
I mean I play to win to but if I lose its alright with me. The best thing to do for me is to play fun, silly, unorthodox builds and destroy mechs with it.

Well all that CW will be is the meta you see now unless they make significant buffs to weapons that need them:

SRMs
Lasers (pulse and non-pulse)

and balancing to things like front-loaded damage and pinpoint.

I'd start with buffs to SRMs and lasers. Then see what happens. But not small buffs. BIG buffs. Like rolling back in closed-beta mechanics and damage to SRMs and reducing laser heat by an entire point in mediums/smalls/pulses.

[Dymlos2003]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Well all that CW will be is the meta you see now unless they make significant buffs to weapons that need them:

SRMs
Lasers (pulse and non-pulse)

and balancing to things like front-loaded damage and pinpoint.

I'd start with buffs to SRMs and lasers. Then see what happens. But not small buffs. BIG buffs. Like rolling back in closed-beta mechanics and damage to SRMs and reducing laser heat by an entire point in mediums/smalls/pulses.

OHh buffs to lasers and SRMS, oh my, I'll be unstoppable.

[Dago Red]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Otherwise, just expect the player to want to do whatever it takes to win. And they should. Or were you raised believing everyone gets a trophy?

No but I was raised to derive joy from a greater variety of outcomes. And when you win doing something that people don't expect to work then the win is so so much sweeter. As are their tears.

Life's too short for type A alpha male if you're not first you're last bull ****.

[Mister Blastman]

Dago Red, on 03 June 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

No but I was raised to derive joy from a greater variety of outcomes. And when you win doing something that people don't expect to work then the win is so so much sweeter. As are their tears.

Life's too short for type A alpha male if you're not first you're last bull ****.

I teach my daughter that. There's only one first place. If you aren't first, you lose. And I'm damn proud of it. She'll be strong in this world--a realm full of the weak.

I also teach her compassion. Because I don't want her to be a sociopath. And wanting to win at all costs is a stone's throw from being one if you don't have any compassion.

[Mcgral18]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

OHh buffs to lasers and SRMS, oh my, I'll be unstoppable.

Perfect, spreadable damage.

Perhaps even a competitive loadout! Viable spread damage? It would be wonderful.

[Mister Blastman]

Mcgral18, on 03 June 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Perfect, spreadable damage.

Perhaps even a competitive loadout! Viable spread damage? It would be wonderful.

I might even begin to reverse my position of giving PGI no more money if they made headway here.

[lpmagic]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes, playing to win at all costs is a boring mindset hence all the boring builds. (Also why CW is going to suck) If they change all the FLD people will just flood to another boring build. That's never going to change.
I mean I play to win to but if I lose its alright with me. The best thing to do for me is to play fun, silly, unorthodox builds and destroy mechs with it.



SRMs are not supposed to be a game changer. They are supposed to compliment your build which they do, wonderfully. Sure though buff them even higher and my srm builds will become unstoppable. Can't wait to see all the SRMS ARE OP threads when they do get that buff.

You miss my point entirely here,

By game changer, I mean they need to be part of the mechanic that drives change, not become so OP that nothign can stand up to them, your going way past the issue here. We're talking about relatively subtle buffs and nerfs, tweaks that make the whole more then the sum of the parts. SRM's is a huge part of balancing the different styles of meta, it is a mechanic for change in the game, it is not,itself, the whole change.

[Dymlos2003]

Mcgral18, on 03 June 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Perfect, spreadable damage.

Perhaps even a competitive loadout! Viable spread damage? It would be wonderful.

Hmm I would say borderline broken. Since I do fine with them right now. I mean 18 dmg every 3 seconds is a scary thing. Especially with the 26 damage spread you get with the srms.

[Mcgral18]

Dymlos2003, on 03 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Hmm I would say borderline broken. Since I do fine with them right now. I mean 18 dmg every 3 seconds is a scary thing. Especially with the 26 damage spread you get with the srms.

In my experience, it's rather pathetic.

Maybe better hitreg would help, but whenever I take them out, it's always disappointing. 16 tubes+A, underwhelming. 22 tubes? Hardly works. 18+A very similar to the 16 and the 12.

They are supposed to be better than long range weapons when they close into the 270M MAX range, not be worse.

[Mister Blastman]

Mcgral18, on 03 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

They are supposed to be better than long range weapons when they close into the 270M MAX range, not be worse.

Precisely this. They aren't. They aren't even close.

[Dymlos2003]

Mcgral18, on 03 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

In my experience, it's rather pathetic.

Maybe better hitreg would help, but whenever I take them out, it's always disappointing. 16 tubes+A, underwhelming. 22 tubes? Hardly works. 18+A very similar to the 16 and the 12.

They are supposed to be better than long range weapons when they close into the 270M MAX range, not be worse.

That sucks, you're missing out dude. It's a great feeling.

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Precisely this. They aren't. They aren't even close.

To certain pilots of a certain skill level. *Hint hint*

[Jonathan Paine]

SRMs:
Marginally better than they used to be. Rapid chain fire seems to do more damage than alpha strikes. Some matches SRMs register well, some they dont. More work needed.

[Bilbo]

lpmagic, on 03 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

You miss my point entirely here,

By game changer, I mean they need to be part of the mechanic that drives change, not become so OP that nothign can stand up to them, your going way past the issue here. We're talking about relatively subtle buffs and nerfs, tweaks that make the whole more then the sum of the parts. SRM's is a huge part of balancing the different styles of meta, it is a mechanic for change in the game, it is not,itself, the whole change.

Until the register reliably there are no buffs or nerfs, of any size, they can make that will change anything.