131 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

As far as I'm concerned, they are dead weight against players that play to win and are really good at it.

So are pugs

[xXBagheeraXx]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Yes, they were broken--but guess what--the game was more FUN!

We had more CHOICES!

The gameplay was more VARIED.

It was not STALE.

You could brawl. You could snipe. You could LRM (if you were a bad). You could use all sorts of things. SRMs continued to be useful into March of 2013. This was after PPCs became useful. Gauss was still aplenty. Yet SRMs could still hit hard.

And then... they got nerfed into the ground due to whining about splatcats. This was the worst thing that ever happened in this game.

So--I could care less if they bring back broken SRMs. In fact, I encourage it! Let them!

The game will become diverse again, overnight. That's good, right? A game is supposed to be fun. This would improve the fun.

Very much this. My favorite mech was the Dragon. One ran 4 mediums a gauss and an srm6 with an xl 300...SOOO much fun was had with that mech. My others ran an ac10 or an lbx in place of the gauss with more sinks, ammo and ams. That mech was LETAL. and incredibly fun to play...

[Reitrix]

Mister Blastman, on 03 June 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Against endless waves of PPC+AC snipers and Gauss boats?

They don't work too well against a team full of 8+ of those.

The PPC/AC5 "snipe" is considerably less damaging than before. Those "snipers" are being forced to get to a minimum of 700m to actually deal meaningful damage to you.

And a serious question here. Not being sarcastic at all.
-How are SRMs the magic bullet to the current Meta?

Edited by Reitrix, 03 June 2014 - 11:34 PM.

[YueFei]

http://mwomercs.com/...-to-back-it-up/

Basically, TTK using the same tonnage of SRMs is 23% faster than with similar tonnage of AC5s. Against a stationary target in Testing Grounds. At 90 meters range. With that target dummy being an Awesome facing me head-on. No lag, no HSR issues, perfect hit detection. And generating 2.5 times the amount of heat to get the kill.

Why take the enormous risks of getting in close, and exposing yourself to focused-fire from multiple enemies (because slicing the pie is a lot harder when you only have short-range guns), when the reward for getting in that close is to kill an enemy 23% faster than you could using a long-range gun that is 2.5 times more heat efficient and has more than double the range?

Basically, SRM effectiveness should follow along a range curve. As you get in closer, they become more and more devastating, until at last they outshine all other weapon types for effective damage-per-ton.

For example, SRM spread/damage can be adjusted such that AC20 is more effective at 270 meters than 14 tons worth of SRMs, due to large spread and slow missile velocities at that range. But SRM spread/damage can be adjusted so that at 90 meters, 14 tons of SRMs vastly outperforms a single AC/20. Otherwise, why ever take SRMs instead of AC20?

Currently, 8 tons of SRMs just barely outperform 8 tons of AC5 in TTK. And that's in a sterile testing environment. Take that up against an actively twisting/shielding opponent, and it's quite possible that the heat-inefficiency of SRMs rears its ugly head as you begin to overheat before you can bring your target down. Given these facts, why take SRMs instead of AC5?

It's not that SRMs are completely wimpy. I use them. They can be effective. They still deal damage, they can still kill people. But if you weigh them against the alternatives, they just don't measure up. It's time to bump them back up to 2.5 damage per missile, and tighten that spread so that more of the damage gets delivered onto the target.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

All I know is, this used to be my favourite game to play until about April 2013. What happened around that time to ruin the gameplay for me ever since remains a mystery, but coincidental events include a major buff to PPCs, a major nerfing of SRMS (some adjustment to the broken SRM splash damage multiplier was certainly needed but they went too far), the un-nerfing of jump jets, the introduction of jump jet assault mechs, reduction in the ability to ascend terrain, and then ghost heat. Oh, and the addition of those damn air/arty strikes.

I think the only major improvement to gameplay since April 2013 has been making streak missiles hit random locations.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 04 June 2014 - 02:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bilbo, on 03 June 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

At that range you aren't really brawling.

500 meters was my best firing line back in the day. And I guess it depends on what definition of brawl you want to use. I don't read close quarters in the definitions using two dictionaries...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 June 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Kmieciu]

xXBagheeraXx, on 03 June 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Very much this. My favorite mech was the Dragon. One ran 4 mediums a gauss and an srm6 with an xl 300...SOOO much fun was had with that mech. My others ran an ac10 or an lbx in place of the gauss with more sinks, ammo and ams. That mech was LETAL. and incredibly fun to play...

I ran the exact same loadout! It was the only mech I managed to score 7 (out of 8) kills in a match. Taking snapshots with Gauss rifle while running 89 kph was so sweet! Though I admit that Gauss pretty much invalidated AC10 back then, while UAC5 invalidated AC5.

Autocannons are, right now, balanced pretty well. I saw a BoomJag yesterday legging and killing a couple of light mechs, still performs well in close quarters. AC10 is usefull when you need the DPS but can't afford to put 2 AC5s. Gauss has the range, but is quite difficult to use when paired with other weapons. That's why you see it used in pairs, as a long range support. AC2 is obviously underpowered, but hey - still better than in TT :-)

As for SRMs while I enjoyed running a CentBomb back in the day (I distinctively remember killing an XL Hunchback in two salvos to the rear ST), I think that MWO should avoid front loaded damage as much as possible, because it encourages ridge-humping and poptarting.

Call me crazy, but in my opinion SRMs should be more or less pinpoint, but ripple fire (think SRM6 firet through a NARC tube only faster) It worked in MW2 and MW4. It would make them different from LB-X autocannons. LB-X - front loaded, spread damage, SRMs - damage over time, but you can aim it more precisely. It would take more skill to put each and every missile on target than the current "stand 50 meters away from the target, "fire 36 missiles at the center mass".

Edited by Kmieciu, 04 June 2014 - 01:22 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Reitrix, on 03 June 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

The PPC/AC5 "snipe" is considerably less damaging than before. Those "snipers" are being forced to get to a minimum of 700m to actually deal meaningful damage to you.

And a serious question here. Not being sarcastic at all.
-How are SRMs the magic bullet to the current Meta?

DPS man. Once you get close, you should be able to considerably out-dps the snipers--and SRMs of old could pinpoint a single panel, doing even MORE damage. Snipers went DOWN, HARD. Now they laugh at your SRMs. I know--because when I'm a sniper, I laugh nonstop at them.

[Bilbo]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

520 meters was my best firing line back in the day. And I guess it depends on what definition of brawl you want to use. I don't read close quarters in the definitions using two dictionaries...

My definition includes the ability to use my SRM's. Can't do that at 500+.

[Sprouticus]

Mister Blastman, on 04 June 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

DPS man. Once you get close, you should be able to considerably out-dps the snipers--and SRMs of old could pinpoint a single panel, doing even MORE damage. Snipers went DOWN, HARD. Now they laugh at your SRMs. I know--because when I'm a sniper, I laugh nonstop at them.

The reason SRM's used to be good is this:

The reason this occurred however was because: there was a major issue with how SRM damage was applied where 1 missile could do 12-15 points of damage. the reason why SRM's were not ridiculously OP (yes even more than they were) was because of the hit detection problems that are just now being fixed. Can you imagine 12-15 points of damage per missile with complete hit detection? Even with the decent (but still flawed) hit detection we have now?

SRM's (like their lbx cousins) will never be good weapons.

Edited by Sprouticus, 04 June 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Some are really upset over the range reduction on A/Cs, but I think it was needed.

I never understood why A/Cs received special treatment anyway. To me, their strength reduction over range should have been on-par with energy weapons to begin with.

[Pygar]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 June 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Some are really upset over the range reduction on A/Cs, but I think it was needed.

I never understood why A/Cs received special treatment anyway. To me, their strength reduction over range should have been on-par with energy weapons to begin with.

It was needed. There's a small part of me that was bummed the nerf was so drastic...but in the end it's for the better. Battles where everybody was settling into a snipe fest at 1500 meters regardless of how little damage they were doing was annoying, and watching people with AC20s shooting targets at what should be PPC and AC5 range (700-800) meters was annoying as well.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Wingbreaker, on 03 June 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

I don't know what game you were playing during Closed Beta, but all the screenshots I can find were extremely heavily balanced towards Gauss Rifles. Anything that could carry one did. Of course, you had no Gauss explosion and/or charge time for them then, so they were ezmode.

Splat catting was a thing, of course, but much like the 6PPC stalker it was a gimmick. It worked until it didnt, and high level players could just remove it from the game so damn easily. That's why the Cent-bomb came into style in the first place.

I think an issue here is a sort of pseudo nostalgia-goggles. Some people merely think of CB as 'more diverse' because they ran into a greater variety of players outside of their skill level.

The thing is, during closed beta there were points when certain weapons worked good while others didn't so it is legitimate to say something along the lines of, "SRMs worked great" even if something like a Gauss Rifle might have been too good. The problem is that PGI generally took alot of things that were working good and balanced and then nerfed them to fix the things that weren't good or balanced rather than just fix what was broken. Ghost heat was a prime example. Double heat sinks operating at only 140% capacity is another.

[Khobai]

Quote

Some are really upset over the range reduction on A/Cs, but I think it was needed.

It was. But mostly because the AC20 outperformed the AC10 at the AC10s optimum range. Now the AC10 is actually worth considering.

The AC5 wasnt really affected by the range nerf because almost nobody used it past 800m anyway. Since it was paired up with PPCs most often and PPCs arnt effective beyond that range.

Overall the AC nerfs were a good thing. Now we just need a PPC nerf.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 June 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Some are really upset over the range reduction on A/Cs, but I think it was needed.

I never understood why A/Cs received special treatment anyway. To me, their strength reduction over range should have been on-par with energy weapons to begin with.

Perhaps but I've been noticing a lot more brawling as a result. That is a good thing imo.

Played several games today solo dropping and saw teams coordinating and using 12 v 12 tactics. That's something you hardly ever see in a PUG. I had to pinch myself and make sure I wasn't dreaming. River City, Tourmaline and even Alpine.

[Dago Red]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

It was. But mostly because the AC20 outperformed the AC10 at the AC10s optimum range. Now the AC10 is actually worth considering.

The AC5 wasnt really affected by the range nerf because almost nobody used it past 800m anyway. Since it was paired up with PPCs most often and PPCs arnt effective beyond that range.

Overall the AC nerfs were a good thing. Now we just need a PPC nerf.

I'm still not convinced that does more damage per single shot equals overall out performs at a specific range. There are a lot more factors to consider in that.

[Deathlike]

I'm simply getting super-agitated by this game. Frankly the changes did squat, because the hitreg hasn't actually been addressed.

So, I guess this is my official "I'm talking a break from this game", because the meta is too stale.

Using SRMs on patch day.. this was the "best game of the day":


Thanks meta. If I don't go meta, I guess I should go home. Using a 3ASRM4 Shadowhawk is "illegal".

Going lights is a chore:


Can't win them all, but it ended up like 2 lights vs 2 assaults in the end game. Fun.

Mo' meta, less fun for everyone else:


Nothing says depressing when the light mech has to carry:


Screw this, I wanted to win and ragequit for the night. I guess I succeeded:



Seriously... the game remains ultimately unchanged since patch day and if I go heavy/assault... I'm more likely to win. If I go brawler or light, I have to carry 2 or 3 other people inevitably. Why does PGI even bother?

Screw it, my SRM needs a serious fix+buff rally and MWO "boycott from boredom" (aka DL's official vacation) begins for at least a week, unless something of interest comes along (there probably won't be) until "clan patch day".

PGI: Same poop, different day

Edited by Deathlike, 04 June 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 04 June 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

I'm simply getting super-agitated by this game. Frankly the changes did squat, because the hitreg hasn't actually been addressed.

So, I guess this is my official "I'm talking a break from this game", because the meta is too stale.

Using SRMs on patch day.. this was the "best game of the day":

Thanks meta. If I don't go meta, I guess I should go home. Using a 3ASRM4 Shadowhawk is "illegal".

Going lights is a chore:

Can't win them all, but it ended up like 2 lights vs 2 assaults in the end game. Fun.

Mo' meta, less fun for everyone else:

Nothing says depressing when the light mech has to carry:

Screw this, I wanted to win and ragequit for the night. I guess I succeeded:


Seriously... the game remains ultimately unchanged since patch day and if I go heavy/assault... I'm more likely to win. If I go brawler or light, I have to carry 2 or 3 other people inevitably. Why does PGI even bother?

Screw it, my SRM needs a serious fix+buff rally and MWO "boycott from boredom" (aka DL's official vacation) begins for at least a week, unless something of interest comes along (there probably won't be) until "clan patch day".

PGI: Same poop, different day

I took SRMs a few times...best result was 820 damage in a brawling victor with 16SRM+A tubes, 300 missiles. Ran dry, while I still had a few Ultra rounds left. Of course it was a loss.

Played around two dozen matches....I believe it was 2 wins. It was horrible last night. 1/4 of the matches, I carried quite a bit, 1/4 of the time...I did absolutely horribly. The other half was brawling mechs on Alpine, and just mediocre play and teams.

2 wins...matchmaker lotteries.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 04 June 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

I took SRMs a few times...best result was 820 damage in a brawling victor with 16SRM+A tubes, 300 missiles. Ran dry, while I still had a few Ultra rounds left. Of course it was a loss.

Played around two dozen matches....I believe it was 2 wins. It was horrible last night. 1/4 of the matches, I carried quite a bit, 1/4 of the time...I did absolutely horribly. The other half was brawling mechs on Alpine, and just mediocre play and teams.

2 wins...matchmaker lotteries.

I only run 3 ASRM4s with 3 tons of ammo (which is "plenty enough" for brawling IMO - there are other weapons on the build of course).

Then you face meta-heavy teams, and pray you can even get into a position to hurt them... and then watch SRMs fire and do actual squat damage, yet "magically calculated" into the damage numbers.

There's something to be said for being dropped into Alpine for one... and then just being food for poptarts because you can't get into range due to terrain and/or just aggressive pushes.

I can't take the blandness like this for another 2 weeks.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 June 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Sprouticus, on 04 June 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

SRM's (like their lbx cousins) will never be good weapons.

They can be... if PGI makes some... administrative changes.