430 replies to this topic

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

IraqiWalker, on 23 July 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I would agree with you, if it wasn't for the fact that we are near the end of 3049, so the clans have actually started operation revival. It doesn't fully kick off until 3050, but it's starting real soon.

To be specific, the very first battles in the periphery started around august of 3049. Just because the core worlds of the IS didn't hear about it until 3050 doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

3050 is when it went into full swing.

I agree with you, but, if we talking about a Clan Invasion as EVENT, than, or clans should be D-leeted or if they (PGI) are so "assuming"of the TechReadout 3049 the IS forces should have more meches including PILLAGER's 1N and 3Z in the same storage as Atlas, plus some more ballistic and energy weapons. Where they are?
None of these we have. Well, it's not so urgent, we can still wait a... month, but with new maps, weps, and Clan-Wars they MUST APPEAR.
Or our fate is the fate shared all P2W games - oblivion.

MWO is only project in BT-Universe who actually can "make happen" the most of the BT-U content. As more BT-U content we have, more gamers will come, more gammers come, more money company will earn, more money they earn, longer MWO lives. Simple.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 25 July 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Pillager, Mackie, King Crab first please... than we start talking.

[IraqiWalker]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 25 July 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

I agree with you, but, if we talking about a Clan Invasion as EVENT, than, or clans should be D-leeted or if they (PGI) are so "assuming"of the TechReadout 3049 the IS forces should have more meches including PILLAGER's 1N and 3Z in the same storage as Atlas, plus some more ballistic and energy weapons. Where they are?
None of these we have. Well, it's not so urgent, we can still wait a... month, but with new maps, weps, and Clan-Wars they MUST APPEAR.
Or our fate is the fate shared all P2W games - oblivion.

MWO is only project in BT-Universe who actually can "make happen" the most of the BT-U content. As more BT-U content we have, more gamers will come, more gammers come, more money company will earn, more money they earn, longer MWO lives. Simple.

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Pillager, Mackie, King Crab first please... than we start talking.

Pretty sure we have almost all of the weapons from the 3050 and 3049 era.

As for mechs. I would love to have the King Crab in the game, however, let's face it. They have a lot of content that they need delivered, and the community has always used the "Oh, more mechs released. How about some NEW content instead?" line way too many times for them to start worrying about adding 50 new chassis. Another restriction is the fact that many mechs out there don't have enough variants to justify adding. Yes, some might have 5 variants, but if the only difference is the ballistic is on the right with Variant A, and on the left with variant B, that doesn't justify adding them.

To be honest, the Atlas wouldn't have been added early on, if it wasn't such an iconic mech, and we needed a proper 100 ton assault. (at least not with the current selection of variants).

We're still getting new mechs, because variety is nice, but the community has made it clear that while they like new mechs, they definitely prefer new content to new mechs.

BTW: The Pillager can't be introduced until 3060. There are only 4 variants of it, and 2 of which at least aren't here until 3060 and after. (4Z is 3060, and 5Z is an upgrade after it) We need 3 viable pre 3050 different variants to introduce a mech into the game. I would personally love the idea of a 100 ton assault mech with JJs.

Mackie can't be introduced as well. Not enough variants, unless you count the prototype one, which can't be used, because it's using primitive armor.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

IraqiWalker, on 30 July 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

BTW: The Pillager can't be introduced until 3060. There are only 4 variants of it, and 2 of which at least aren't here until 3060 and after. (4Z is 3060, and 5Z is an upgrade after it) We need 3 viable pre 3050 different variants to introduce a mech into the game. I would personally love the idea of a 100 ton assault mech with JJs.

Pillager - Production Year2594
King Crab - Production Year2743

That's it, end of story. You wrong.
Details will not be taking in count. Pillager with 2 first model such as 1N and 3Z existing, KC got 3 models available till 3049. So they must be entered. And there is no discussion about it.

[IraqiWalker]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

Pillager - Production Year2594
King Crab - Production Year2743

That's it, end of story. You wrong.
Details will not be taking in count. Pillager with 2 first model such as 1N and 3Z existing, KC got 3 models available till 3049. So they must be entered. And there is no discussion about it.

I said King Crab can be entered into the game.

Pillager has only 2 viable models. You need at least 3 WITHOUT a hero, to enter the game. Read my post again. I said two of the pillager variants don't exist until after 3060. A.K.A. Pillager can't enter the game yet. So.... Pretty sure you're wrong on that one.

Unless you want PGI to start making up standard variants on top of apocryphal heroes.


EDIT: Also read the variant specifications, not just the introduction year. The other Pillager variants use ArrowIV and Long Tom Artillery. Both don't exist in the game.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 30 July 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

IraqiWalker, on 30 July 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

I said King Crab can be entered into the game.

Pillager has only 2 viable models. You need at least 3 WITHOUT a hero, to enter the game. Read my post again. I said two of the pillager variants don't exist until after 3060. A.K.A. Pillager can't enter the game yet. So.... Pretty sure you're wrong on that one.

Actually we don't need heromech 4 Pillager or KC. Those 2 variants of PLG is fine, than when TechReadOut will be updated PGI can bring more variants. That would be a right solution just exactly fitting a time schedule.

So, any way I'm right. And you get your...

[IraqiWalker]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Actually we don't need heromech 4 Pillager or KC. Those 2 variants of PLG is fine, than when TechReadOut will be updated PGI can bring more variants. That would be a right solution just exactly fitting a time schedule.

So, any way I'm right. And you get your...

You need 3 variants. 2 doesn't cut it. You can't even elite the mech without 3 variants. As it stands only the 3Z and 1N can be introduced. There are no other variants that can be put into the game until after 3060. Do you think no one wants to see the Hammer hands in the game? We'd love to see it, but only 2 of it's variants are pre 3072 (there might be one from 3068)

You can't introduce a mech into the game until you have 3-THREE- variants, so you can elite and master it. Since without elites, the mech is insanely gimped compared to all other mechs on the field.


EDIT: also, stop bringing up the King Crab, no one has a problem with it being in the game. Hell. I WANT that fluffy monster in this game NOW.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 30 July 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

IraqiWalker, on 30 July 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

You need 3 variants. 2 doesn't cut it. You can't even elite the mech without 3 variants. As it stands only the 3Z and 1N can be introduced. There are no other variants that can be put into the game until after 3060. Do you think no one wants to see the Hammer hands in the game? We'd love to see it, but only 2 of it's variants are pre 3072 (there might be one from 3068)

You can't introduce a mech into the game until you have 3-THREE- variants, so you can elite and master it. Since without elites, the mech is insanely gimped compared to all other mechs on the field.


EDIT: also, stop bringing up the King Crab, no one has a problem with it being in the game. Hell. I WANT that fluffy monster in this game NOW.

Not bringing all three variants of PLG is a part of a balance. Cause CL's don't have 3x100 mechs like IS do.

And NO FLUFFY MONSTERS!

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 30 July 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Not bringing all three variants of PLG is a part of a balance. Cause CL's don't have 3x100 mechs like IS do.

And NO FLUFFY MONSTERS!

LMAO. I love that gif. The old Godzilla shows and movies were wonderful.

However, I will disagree on the clans not having 3x100. Most clan mechs have multiple variants possible. However, the 3 variants rule here, allows the mech to be elited, without which it is just way too handicapped.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

IraqiWalker, on 30 July 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

LMAO. I love that gif. The old Godzilla shows and movies were wonderful.

However, I will disagree on the clans not having 3x100. Most clan mechs have multiple variants possible. However, the 3 variants rule here, allows the mech to be elited, without which it is just way too handicapped.

The 3 variants mech rule is a bad cornerstone of which most of a gamers will be left without choice of proper assault mechs of IS. Must be changed.

[Snoopy]

IMHO not letting people use the Mechs they own (and maybe paid real-money for) in the most important part of the game (CW) is a borderline idea.

Do you really think WoT, WarThunder or STO would be successful in player numbers and financial view with only Faction-True tank / aircraft / starship selection?
I don't think so ...

Of course this will not present the equivalent to the historical BT-lore sequences, but MWO is a combat orientated MechWarrior-game and not a historical-BT-simulation of the Clan invasion. Some people want the game to be BT-lore- and timeline-true, I can understand this desire. But the game has to be appealing to BT/MW- and non-BT/MW- fans at the same time.

BattleTech was always about salvage. Sure the salvage rights (for Merc units) were limited after the Clan Invasion started because the Great Houses wanted to get as much Clan Tech as possible, but it wasn't impossible. And even Merc units were treated differently: the Kell Hounds, ELH and Northwind Highlanders did get their share on Clan Mechs and tech. Some high-risk (translate=suicide) missions were even advertised with full Clan salvage rights.

Fighting in BattleTech was always Faction-A vs Faction-B using each Mech/vehicle they had available/produced/had stolen/salvaged/inherited ...

There were only a very small number of Mech chassis that were really faction-xyz-only produced, and even does could be salvaged on the battlefield or bought on the Black Market.

It is not that the player is a normal soldier that has no chance to get access to the rare and state-of-the-art BT-stuff. We already can buy and use any IS-LostTech equipment and Mech we want. Something that should not be possible if we follow the lore. But we are supposed to be DAMM BIG HERO (be shiny!).

From the start of MWO you could use every Mech you had in your hangar, regardless of place of origin (the Poke-Mech aspect of MWO). A feature I, and maybe others too, like because it gives you a diverse selection of options to choose. I'm not aware of one single official line from PGI in the past that made clear that they had any intention to limited your Mech selection based on your faction and how this limitation could work.
Seriously question: Was there any?

I believe there will be not enough players to support any real player-driven-massive-battle-dynamic with more restrictions. Some factions would be totally uninteresting and unbalanced, matchmaking and 3/3/3/3 would be a real problem.

How can we expect to get any players fighting for faction-xyz when they do not have access to any of the "nice-toys"?
How should matchmaking and the queues work for faction-A vs faction-B when faction-A has 10k player and faction-B only a few hundred?

Re-implementing R&R to generate additional cost for Clan Tech used by Clan- and/or IS-players is just another word for: implementing limitations. R&R was a good idea implemented in a very bad way the first run, why should we expect to see a better version in the next incarnation ? Personally I'm glad it is gone (in the form we had it).

Would it make the game more BT-realistic/sim ? Most likely, yes.
Would it increase the fun for most players ? Most likely, no.
Would it increase the chance of people spending money non-faction Mechs ? Most likely, no.

The C-Bills sinks is already here: reduced income, new Mechs, upgrades, upcoming consumables-only module slots and unit-features for C-Bills. We have to consider that not every gamer has multi-digit million C-Bills.

Regarding the argument about the timeline and stay-true-to-the-lore:
IMHO BT timeline and lore is already totally messed up in MWO.
Is correcting this a meaningful goal?
Why should PGI/we want to stay true to the timeline/lore?

When thinking about I see many unresolved points pop up.

• How would this result in more fun for the players?
  
• How would it effect hardcore-BT fans and casual gamers?
  
• What is the impact for the players that already own a mixed hangar (IS and Clan)?
  
• Why should they try to stay true to BT-lore for this part only and, strictly speaking, would be the most extreme interpretation of lore?
  
• Should this (staying true to lore) mean every player in Kurita, Steiner and FRR faction should be forced to loose every match against Clans for the first years of the invasion?
  
• Should only House Liao be allowed to use the Raven-3L and all other Factions get the Raven-3L variants locked away (this can be repeated with almost every Mech chassis/variant)?
  
• Should a player in faction-A only be able to fight against faction-B and -F (direct IS map neighbours) and not against the rest of the IS?
  
• Should a faction-A player not be allowed to get Elite on his Mech-x because he can not use the third chassis which is a faction-B variant?
  
• What faction is a Merc Unit after all (One single IS, All IS at the same time, None or Based on current client?)?
  
• Should Hero-Mechs be limited to the faction the original owner belonged to?
  
• Should the 3/3/3/3 rule be modified matching our faction production abilities?
  
• Should the MechLab be limited to lore corresponding level?
  
• Why should a player spend money on buying Phoenix/Clan/Hero/next-pack stuff if I'm not allowed to use it in the key part of the game?

I believe that staying true to the timeline/lore would only generate more problems than benefits.

Staying true to the timeline could work in a linear single-player-RPG, but not in the MWO player-driven environment of CW. Sure, you can find a reason for every exception why staying true to lore/timeline is good for a specific issue but not for everything else ... but that sounds a bit like cherry picking.

Staying true to lore should not mean to implement limitations that were not even in the most extremely laid out versions of the background. Sure, Clan-Tech wasn't used in every common unit in 3050, but this is a game about us being a MechWarrior. We are the HEROS in this story.

IMO a reset to 3049 should only mean: CW starts with the 3049 IS map/area distribution.

Community Warfare should be about Faction against Faction, MechWarrior against MechWarrior and not about limited-selection-A against limited-selection-B.

Thanks for reading

[Threat Doc]

Snoopy, on 30 July 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

........

...

Jesus, Snoopy, my eyes are bleeding, and not from the reading. You said the game is BT/MW and should not only appeal to the BT/MW fans, but also to the non-fans... first, that's a HUMONGOUS load of rubbish.

Second, the game is a huge combat monster, right now, with nothing having to do with BT/MW fans at all. Coolant flush, UAVs, modules, armor being double what it's supposed to be, third-person view... Christ, it's Battlefield 4 with BattleTech names and images, and nearly ALL of the veteran's of the tabletop game and the previous video games have fled.

No, this game should be 100% about the lore, should be 100% accurate to it, and then PGI should rely on the veteran's to come and support the game, to do all of the recruitment from previous games' members and from outside the game universe altogether. Then, even if all those other people go away, you still have the veterans supporting the game.

See, your outlook, and PGI/IGP's outlook are the very same thing, thinking only of the short-term gain, not the long-term success, which is just... holy smokes...

If PGI are going to label this as A BattleTech Game, then it needs to be a BattleTech game, and not super-twitcher-meta online.

You, and anyone who thinks like you is wrong, and that's sad.

I can't believe you said those things... my eyes are bleeding, now. No, I'm not frackin' joking, either.

[IraqiWalker]

Snoopy, on 30 July 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

IMHO not letting people use the Mechs they own (and maybe paid real-money for) in the most important part of the game (CW) is a borderline idea.

Do you really think WoT, WarThunder or STO would be successful in player numbers and financial view with only Faction-True tank / aircraft / starship selection?
I don't think so ...

Of course this will not present the equivalent to the historical BT-lore sequences, but MWO is a combat orientated MechWarrior-game and not a historical-BT-simulation of the Clan invasion. Some people want the game to be BT-lore- and timeline-true, I can understand this desire. But the game has to be appealing to BT/MW- and non-BT/MW- fans at the same time.

BattleTech was always about salvage. Sure the salvage rights (for Merc units) were limited after the Clan Invasion started because the Great Houses wanted to get as much Clan Tech as possible, but it wasn't impossible. And even Merc units were treated differently: the Kell Hounds, ELH and Northwind Highlanders did get their share on Clan Mechs and tech. Some high-risk (translate=suicide) missions were even advertised with full Clan salvage rights.

Fighting in BattleTech was always Faction-A vs Faction-B using each Mech/vehicle they had available/produced/had stolen/salvaged/inherited ...

There were only a very small number of Mech chassis that were really faction-xyz-only produced, and even does could be salvaged on the battlefield or bought on the Black Market.

It is not that the player is a normal soldier that has no chance to get access to the rare and state-of-the-art BT-stuff. We already can buy and use any IS-LostTech equipment and Mech we want. Something that should not be possible if we follow the lore. But we are supposed to be DAMM BIG HERO (be shiny!).

From the start of MWO you could use every Mech you had in your hangar, regardless of place of origin (the Poke-Mech aspect of MWO). A feature I, and maybe others too, like because it gives you a diverse selection of options to choose. I'm not aware of one single official line from PGI in the past that made clear that they had any intention to limited your Mech selection based on your faction and how this limitation could work.
Seriously question: Was there any?

I believe there will be not enough players to support any real player-driven-massive-battle-dynamic with more restrictions. Some factions would be totally uninteresting and unbalanced, matchmaking and 3/3/3/3 would be a real problem.

How can we expect to get any players fighting for faction-xyz when they do not have access to any of the "nice-toys"?
How should matchmaking and the queues work for faction-A vs faction-B when faction-A has 10k player and faction-B only a few hundred?

Re-implementing R&R to generate additional cost for Clan Tech used by Clan- and/or IS-players is just another word for: implementing limitations. R&R was a good idea implemented in a very bad way the first run, why should we expect to see a better version in the next incarnation ? Personally I'm glad it is gone (in the form we had it).

Would it make the game more BT-realistic/sim ? Most likely, yes.
Would it increase the fun for most players ? Most likely, no.
Would it increase the chance of people spending money non-faction Mechs ? Most likely, no.

The C-Bills sinks is already here: reduced income, new Mechs, upgrades, upcoming consumables-only module slots and unit-features for C-Bills. We have to consider that not every gamer has multi-digit million C-Bills.

Regarding the argument about the timeline and stay-true-to-the-lore:
IMHO BT timeline and lore is already totally messed up in MWO.
Is correcting this a meaningful goal?
Why should PGI/we want to stay true to the timeline/lore?

When thinking about I see many unresolved points pop up.

• How would this result in more fun for the players?
  
• How would it effect hardcore-BT fans and casual gamers?
  
• What is the impact for the players that already own a mixed hangar (IS and Clan)?
  
• Why should they try to stay true to BT-lore for this part only and, strictly speaking, would be the most extreme interpretation of lore?
  
• Should this (staying true to lore) mean every player in Kurita, Steiner and FRR faction should be forced to loose every match against Clans for the first years of the invasion?
  
• Should only House Liao be allowed to use the Raven-3L and all other Factions get the Raven-3L variants locked away (this can be repeated with almost every Mech chassis/variant)?
  
• Should a player in faction-A only be able to fight against faction-B and -F (direct IS map neighbours) and not against the rest of the IS?
  
• Should a faction-A player not be allowed to get Elite on his Mech-x because he can not use the third chassis which is a faction-B variant?
  
• What faction is a Merc Unit after all (One single IS, All IS at the same time, None or Based on current client?)?
  
• Should Hero-Mechs be limited to the faction the original owner belonged to?
  
• Should the 3/3/3/3 rule be modified matching our faction production abilities?
  
• Should the MechLab be limited to lore corresponding level?
  
• Why should a player spend money on buying Phoenix/Clan/Hero/next-pack stuff if I'm not allowed to use it in the key part of the game?

I believe that staying true to the timeline/lore would only generate more problems than benefits.

Staying true to the timeline could work in a linear single-player-RPG, but not in the MWO player-driven environment of CW. Sure, you can find a reason for every exception why staying true to lore/timeline is good for a specific issue but not for everything else ... but that sounds a bit like cherry picking.

Staying true to lore should not mean to implement limitations that were not even in the most extremely laid out versions of the background. Sure, Clan-Tech wasn't used in every common unit in 3050, but this is a game about us being a MechWarrior. We are the HEROS in this story.

IMO a reset to 3049 should only mean: CW starts with the 3049 IS map/area distribution.

Community Warfare should be about Faction against Faction, MechWarrior against MechWarrior and not about limited-selection-A against limited-selection-B.

Thanks for reading

Wow, when you play Warthunder, and jump into a russian plane can you move it into the german side? No you can't.. Why should you allow that here?

Anyone that bought the clan mechs, and wanted to play as an IS pilot in CW, should've known through common sense that that wouldn't happen. If they didn't, they should have at least asked.

I bought the Daishi pack, even though I'm going to be playing for House Davion in CW. Most of us bought the mechs to support the game. I'm also willing to bet, that anyone that even values the lore a bit would find it insulting to allow mixed tech at 3050. My clan mechs will only be used in the PuG queue, and maybe when I play for the clans every now and then. However, I will be running IS mechs, and playing for an IS faction. In that setting, I would be very upset if PGI let me use clan mechs while piloting for the innersphere.

As for the nice toys comment:

We have the nice toys of each individual faction so far (Davion has locusts, commandos, jager mechs, victors ... etc.) Each house has it's mechs, and no one house will be shafted compared to the others. The clans also have their mechs (2 for each of the original 4), and no one is going to have a problem with that. If you like jenners, then you should be playing for house Kurita. Not FRR.

As for Salvage, those three units are pretty much the only units that got anything worthwhile. Add in there Wolf's Dragoons, and you have the 4 most powerful merc units, and other than the dragoons, the others got scraps at best. Read about the Death's Hand Brigade to see what generally happens to merc units.

Also, none of those units got salvage rights for clan tech until way after the battle of Tukayyid.

Should units start with mix tech, absolutely not.
Should units start able to salvage parts to unlock some form of mixed tech. Absolutely not.
Would it be okay to add mix tech in? Around 3068, yeah, sure. Before that, gets a bit tricky.

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

The 3 variants mech rule is a bad cornerstone of which most of a gamers will be left without choice of proper assault mechs of IS. Must be changed.

I agree. However, at the same time, it helps with the grind.

[Cimarb]

IraqiWalker, on 30 July 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Wow, when you play Warthunder, and jump into a russian plane can you move it into the german side? No you can't.. Why should you allow that here?

Anyone that bought the clan mechs, and wanted to play as an IS pilot in CW, should've known through common sense that that wouldn't happen. If they didn't, they should have at least asked.

I bought the Daishi pack, even though I'm going to be playing for House Davion in CW. Most of us bought the mechs to support the game. I'm also willing to bet, that anyone that even values the lore a bit would find it insulting to allow mixed tech at 3050. My clan mechs will only be used in the PuG queue, and maybe when I play for the clans every now and then. However, I will be running IS mechs, and playing for an IS faction. In that setting, I would be very upset if PGI let me use clan mechs while piloting for the innersphere.

As for the nice toys comment:

We have the nice toys of each individual faction so far (Davion has locusts, commandos, jager mechs, victors ... etc.) Each house has it's mechs, and no one house will be shafted compared to the others. The clans also have their mechs (2 for each of the original 4), and no one is going to have a problem with that. If you like jenners, then you should be playing for house Kurita. Not FRR.

As for Salvage, those three units are pretty much the only units that got anything worthwhile. Add in there Wolf's Dragoons, and you have the 4 most powerful merc units, and other than the dragoons, the others got scraps at best. Read about the Death's Hand Brigade to see what generally happens to merc units.

Also, none of those units got salvage rights for clan tech until way after the battle of Tukayyid.

Should units start with mix tech, absolutely not.
Should units start able to salvage parts to unlock some form of mixed tech. Absolutely not.
Would it be okay to add mix tech in? Around 3068, yeah, sure. Before that, gets a bit tricky.

I generally agree with pretty much everything you say, but here we disagree (mostly).

I agree with you about mix tech, but only because Clan tech was balanced around the Omni technology and its limitations (which I do not want to even get into, since it is a bit backwards).

Otherwise, we are on opposite ends of the discussion , and here is why...

I will be playing as a Ghost Bear, and will likely never drop in a Jenner, or any other IS mech, even the Urbanmech if you finally succeed in getting PGI to add it, but there is absolutely ZERO reason to prevent me from doing that according to lore.

Let us go with your Jenner example, though. Do you really think that no one outside of House Kurita ever fielded a Jenner? If they DID field a Jenner (which pretty much every House and unit did), how did they field one? Through salvage and planetary conquest, that is how! Blocking anyone outside of Kurita from using the Jenner is just plain silly.

In addition to that, even though most mechs are more common in some units/factions than others, salvage and changing allegiances has made almost every single mech available to every other faction. The only difference is availability of parts and ammo. That is where Repair and Rearm should be utilized, and cross-faction R&R should be highly expensive.

Sandpit has made a great thread about R&R and Salvage, and I have my own ideas about it in the link in my signature. It is vital to CW to include these systems, as it is the only thing that will actually make CW successful as anything more than an elaborate tourney of desthmatches.

[IraqiWalker]

Cimarb, on 31 July 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

I generally agree with pretty much everything you say, but here we disagree (mostly).

I agree with you about mix tech, but only because Clan tech was balanced around the Omni technology and its limitations (which I do not want to even get into, since it is a bit backwards).

Otherwise, we are on opposite ends of the discussion , and here is why...

I will be playing as a Ghost Bear, and will likely never drop in a Jenner, or any other IS mech, even the Urbanmech if you finally succeed in getting PGI to add it, but there is absolutely ZERO reason to prevent me from doing that according to lore.

Let us go with your Jenner example, though. Do you really think that no one outside of House Kurita ever fielded a Jenner? If they DID field a Jenner (which pretty much every House and unit did), how did they field one? Through salvage and planetary conquest, that is how! Blocking anyone outside of Kurita from using the Jenner is just plain silly.

In addition to that, even though most mechs are more common in some units/factions than others, salvage and changing allegiances has made almost every single mech available to every other faction. The only difference is availability of parts and ammo. That is where Repair and Rearm should be utilized, and cross-faction R&R should be highly expensive.

Sandpit has made a great thread about R&R and Salvage, and I have my own ideas about it in the link in my signature. It is vital to CW to include these systems, as it is the only thing that will actually make CW successful as anything more than an elaborate tourney of desthmatches.

I may have taken it to an extreme.(my phrasing in English has some flaws in it with this particular case. I probably shouldn't have used to IS factions for the comparison)

I like the idea of some form of R&R being there in CW.

Now, on to what I actually meant by my previous post:
Mix tech shouldn't happen early, at least that's what I think would be reasonable. The houses want to take all the clan tech, and there's no way someone not a member of the houses will get it any time soon, in a logical way. That's what the russian/german part was about, and somehow I threw in Kurita/FRR in there. When I meant IS/clan.

Now as far as IS mechs go:

House Kurita are the largest producers of Jenner mechs, so it stands to reason that their warriors would have access to them for very cheap. However, as a pilot for another faction, it won't be easy for me to get these mechs. I would have to buy them at a serious premium. Unless we managed to take a planet that has a manufacturing facility for them, then the price would be brought down to a reasonable level.

Salvage as it has been suggested (especially with the "destroy each part multiple times to unlock it" suggestion), doesn't sit well with me. I don't have a good alternative to it, but I feel that system will negate the motivation to capture manufacturing plants, and unless implemented with a large number, preferably of kills instead of parts destroyed, it will cause issues in my mind.

With kills, I can at least understand it. You're going to need a long grind, which plays into the passage of time, and timeline progress (without slowing you down for 15 years, because you're missing that ONE Jenner left leg), however, even that system rubs me the wrong way. I would rather access be granted through contracts, and faction-wide events.

[Cimarb]

IraqiWalker, on 31 July 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I may have taken it to an extreme.(my phrasing in English has some flaws in it with this particular case. I probably shouldn't have used to IS factions for the comparison)

I like the idea of some form of R&R being there in CW.

Now, on to what I actually meant by my previous post:
Mix tech shouldn't happen early, at least that's what I think would be reasonable. The houses want to take all the clan tech, and there's no way someone not a member of the houses will get it any time soon, in a logical way. That's what the russian/german part was about, and somehow I threw in Kurita/FRR in there. When I meant IS/clan.

Now as far as IS mechs go:

House Kurita are the largest producers of Jenner mechs, so it stands to reason that their warriors would have access to them for very cheap. However, as a pilot for another faction, it won't be easy for me to get these mechs. I would have to buy them at a serious premium. Unless we managed to take a planet that has a manufacturing facility for them, then the price would be brought down to a reasonable level.

Salvage as it has been suggested (especially with the "destroy each part multiple times to unlock it" suggestion), doesn't sit well with me. I don't have a good alternative to it, but I feel that system will negate the motivation to capture manufacturing plants, and unless implemented with a large number, preferably of kills instead of parts destroyed, it will cause issues in my mind.

With kills, I can at least understand it. You're going to need a long grind, which plays into the passage of time, and timeline progress (without slowing you down for 15 years, because you're missing that ONE Jenner left leg), however, even that system rubs me the wrong way. I would rather access be granted through contracts, and faction-wide events.

I have issues communicating in English as well, and it is my native language, so...

Yeah, I agree with your revised explanation. I do not want actual mix-tech, meaning Clan weapons within an Inner Sphere chassis, or vice versa, at least not for a while.

I am against any sort of "you can only use this mech that matches your faction", though, and that is where I am fighting for some sort of unlock feature. It does not have to be "shoot X number of Jenner right legs", and that is not what I have proposed. Instead, it should be based upon a salvage system, where you earn a certain amount of salvage depending on your match score (in a win), and that salvage is taken from the components that have NOT been destroyed on the losing team.

When you do get that Jenner arm, it gives you an achievement for that arm, which unlocks it. Once you have all of the components for a particular chassis variant, you get the meta-achievement and that variant is then open to use (all of this is for CW only, of course). You still have to purchase it, if you have not already, and repairs and rearming would still be dependent on "out-of-faction" costs, but at least it is available to you if you want to pay the cost.

Tired of paying extra to run your Jenner as a Davion? Simple, just go conquer the planet that produces them! Now, you get a temporary full unlock for all mechs produced on that planet, reduced repair and rearm costs for those mechs, and the satisfaction of knowing that you just took those advantages away from ALL Kurita players! Better prepare for the incoming armada to take it back, though...

[Threat Doc]

I think you guys, Cimarb and IraqiWalker are, basically, sharing the same page, on the same sheet of music, as it were but, again, there's a problem of agreement in implementation.

Cimarb, as I've pointed out, before, but not in this detail, I agree with and enjoy what you've proposed. However, if you just shoot ONE component and, all of a sudden you've collected that component, then that's on eight components (head, arms, torsos, and legs) that would need to be collected. I don't think I would want it to be quite that easy. What if, instead, there were something like a Salvage economy, where not only would you need to collect the individual parts of that specific variant of that chassis -for example, collecting the arm of a JR7-F Jenner is not going to be the same as a JR7-K-, but you also have to collect a certain amount of salvage and kills, as well. I feel like we've discussed this, before, but my PTSD affects my memory pretty badly sometimes -a lot of the time, actually-, so I don't remember.

Anyway, I just feel like it should be a real requirement to pick these things up, not collect eight pieces of a particular 'Mech chassis and then you unlock the chassis and all variants for it. It should be HARD to collect Inner Sphere alternate faction 'Mechs, and perhaps even harder to collect Clan 'Mechs in this fashion, though to be honest that's pretty hard in and of itself.

Of course, for those who were foolish enough to purchase Clan packs, it shouldn't be impossible to be able to collect the variants of a chassis, but it should be a LOT harder. And, like you said, Cimarb, the R&R costs should be prohibitive, at best.

[Cimarb]

Kay Wolf, on 31 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

I think you guys, Cimarb and IraqiWalker are, basically, sharing the same page, on the same sheet of music, as it were but, again, there's a problem of agreement in implementation.

Cimarb, as I've pointed out, before, but not in this detail, I agree with and enjoy what you've proposed. However, if you just shoot ONE component and, all of a sudden you've collected that component, then that's on eight components (head, arms, torsos, and legs) that would need to be collected. I don't think I would want it to be quite that easy. What if, instead, there were something like a Salvage economy, where not only would you need to collect the individual parts of that specific variant of that chassis -for example, collecting the arm of a JR7-F Jenner is not going to be the same as a JR7-K-, but you also have to collect a certain amount of salvage and kills, as well. I feel like we've discussed this, before, but my PTSD affects my memory pretty badly sometimes -a lot of the time, actually-, so I don't remember.

Anyway, I just feel like it should be a real requirement to pick these things up, not collect eight pieces of a particular 'Mech chassis and then you unlock the chassis and all variants for it. It should be HARD to collect Inner Sphere alternate faction 'Mechs, and perhaps even harder to collect Clan 'Mechs in this fashion, though to be honest that's pretty hard in and of itself.

Of course, for those who were foolish enough to purchase Clan packs, it shouldn't be impossible to be able to collect the variants of a chassis, but it should be a LOT harder. And, like you said, Cimarb, the R&R costs should be prohibitive, at best.

Yeah, the conversation has came up so many times, in so many different threads, that I cannot remember what I/we said where...

Just shooting a component does not unlock it, IMO. At the end of the match, based upon your match score, you get a certain amount of "loot" (i.e. Salvage). Say you rocked that matched and got a 100 match score. For every, say, 20 points, you get one random component from the opposing teams remaining components. It could be an ERLL, or it could be a Jenner-K Left Arm, or whatever. You then have three choices: 1. Keep the item to add to a mech, 2. Use it to unlock part of a chassis you are working on, or 3. Sell it for cbills.

How "difficult" or time-consuming this system can be is directly related to how many items are "dropped" per match, how granular the unlocking process is (do you just have to get the arm, or do you have to get every component in that arm first?), and whatever other factors PGI wants to implement to balance it, such as condition of the equipment, a timer on repairing the component, etc.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

As we (Me and IraqWalker) discussed IS don't need MIXTECH. IS just need few more mechs who can be a counterparts against clan forces and some few weapons of IS to the 3049 time scale.
It will be more than enough.
As for me... I want both King Crab and first two models of Pillager in game A.S.A.P.

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 31 July 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Snoopy]

Kay Wolf, on 30 July 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

...

First: Thanks for your answer :-)

After I read your message I'm not sure if you understood my contribution or my intention. English is not my native tongue, so I may not choose my words in the correct form.

I have asked my questions to know what others think how we can obtain a balanced forces ratio between the factions (with a return to 3049), while staying true to the BT-lore.

Regarding short-term goal: you are wrong in the assumption that I support only short-term goals. It is exactly the other way around.
I would like to raise the question : why should a customer spend money on MWO when PGI is known to change in-game conditions after sale of products. It is one thing to change something for balance reason, but it is a total different story to change key features of the game and changing the products you bought with money.

Doesn't such actions / reputation do more harm to the long-term revenue if the don't get communicated before?

I believe PGI needs to get the conditions of future game part (not balance changes) clearly communicated to their customer base before they start any sale. Something like: You can buy this but only use under the following restrictions.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the aspect of appealing to BT/MW fans only. I do believe that the BT/MW fan base is huge, but not huge enough to run a online game (financial and number of players). There are six IS factions and four Clan faction to divide the playerbase. Even STO and SWTOR had problems to be financial successful, both with a much larger fan base compared to BT/MW. Having a already defined background maybe is an advantage and disadvantage at the same time.

Maybe we can agree on consumable in general: not sure about your position but I do not like it at all. "Magic" coolant or a UAV appearing from now nowhere, with no need for any tonnage or slots ... I don't like it.
You are right about the BF4 aspects and I agree with you again. I would would love to see the "twitch shooter" aspect of MWO move in the background and be more like a true BT/MW game with more aspects from the BT-universe.

But I think that just resetting anything to BT-3049 will not improve the current situation.

• How will staying true to the BT-lore and BT-timeline improve the game?

I get mixed feelings about the approach to see Clan- and IS-Mechs fight on the some side while we have 3049. I do not want to see IS-Mechs using Clan-tech at all, but again that's only my opinion and maybe not the best for the game.

But wouldn't it be the best way to get theoretical balance between factions in CW? Each side has access to the same stuff? Nobody is restricted or has a disadvantage? You just pick the Faction you like the most, not the one with the "best" Mech selection available.
It is the path of least resistance and not perfect, but how can we avoid imbalance generated by following BT-lore and BT-timeline exactly?

BT-lore and BT-timeline was never about each Faction having the same options and equal opportunities. It was a story about protagonists (heros & villians) in the BT-universe.

I just do not think that a "stay true to the 3049 lore and timeline" is really easy and a good idea in a online game. Maybe it would be better to start with the 3049 map and write the further history by player/faction action and CW results.

So I repeat my main question:
What improvements will we get when we stay exactly true to BT-lore and -timeline?