127 replies to this topic

[BARBAR0SSA]

What's become apparent is that there is no definitive solution that would cover everything from reading all this..which is sad.

[Fishhawk]

shad0w4life, on 05 June 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

What's become apparent is that there is no definitive solution that would cover everything from reading all this..which is sad.

Yeah, unfortunately we are so far down the road it's just bandaids on what has been designed.

Edited by Fishhawk, 05 June 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[Hellcat420]

Targetloc, on 05 June 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

The really interesting thing about these heat threads is that while there's a lot of debate over how we should change the heat system, no one puts any effort into defending the current heat system.

Every other discussion always manages to attract a few white knights to defend the status quo... but no such love for heat.

nobody defends the current heat system because that is part of the quick ttk problem(along with instant convergence). the current system allows mechs to fire way too much with no ill effects.

[LordKnightFandragon]

shad0w4life, on 05 June 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

What's become apparent is that there is no definitive solution that would cover everything from reading all this..which is sad.

So take it in parts.

we dont need to change everything.....

Add in a little bit of some of these ideas, see how the game changes....

But clearly, sticking with what we have with no changes is only going to kill the game in the long run......or atleast dwindle the playerbase till its just a few die hards...

[BARBAR0SSA]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 June 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

So take it in parts.

we dont need to change everything.....

Add in a little bit of some of these ideas, see how the game changes....

But clearly, sticking with what we have with no changes is only going to kill the game in the long run......or atleast dwindle the playerbase till its just a few die hards...

Aye, I'm more concerned with a way to really encourage people to variety build...eg if there were heat penalties and you're 500m away and can't hit a barn with your LL/PPC, use your LRMS because they will hit Or else you can boat AC and PPC but you're going to have to wait until bottom of heat threshold before you bother pinpoint sniping.

Maybe some quirk where a light mech at full speed get a boost to cooling from airflow so they don't suffer as much for hit and run tactics(eg. Movement penalty). Just so many damn things to account for.

[Tombstoner]

Almond Brown, on 05 June 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

WTF. Go ahead and put 4-6 MG's on a MWO Mech and you will get Heat neutrality every time.

Then why not a heat neutral awesome or any other mech? cause heat would be trivial otherwise. it already is for some designs yet PGI has held onto that paradigm.

[Vyx]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 June 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

But given that our heat generates real time in this game, it would make sense that we see the effects as we generate them.

Starting at that 5 heat, -1 speed? That could translate into at 20% heat, we suffer 10% slower rotation and acceleration speeds on our mech.

the accuracy modifiers? Those could be represented by, at 40% heat, we suffer a 20% increase to our CoF bloom on the weapons, making them harder to aim and pin point. The effects would then begin to stack on as we generated more heat.

By 40% heat we would be suffering the 20% CoF bloom, 10% speed and rotation hit and if we keep going and reach like 60% heat, we then notice our radar beginning to falter, become hazy and slow to pick up stuff. Also, our lock time and info gather time suffers a 1s delay and target decay becomes half a second faster.

Upon reaching 75% heat, we get all of the above along with a heat exhaustion penalty applied to the pilot, where, as we stay above 75% heat, we notice our entire screen blurring, becoming darker and if we do not cool the mech off, our pilot passes out for a few seconds until the heat reaches back down below like 50%.

adding in these heat penalites would limit pin point, people wouldnt be so apt to wanna JJ and Lolpha strike with those 4 ER PPCs, 2 AC20s and an LRM15 rack....

What struck me about this approach is the mindset of piloting a mech as an undeniably visceral experience. The job of the mechwarrior is not for the timid, and the in-game simulated experience should leave the player a bit stressed. Overheating should have the real, experience-oriented effects as described: blurring, shaking, windshields cracking, sensors fading, smoke in the cockpit, strobed emergency lighting, multiple overlaid alarm sounds, pilots blacking-out, etc. The heat effects as they are presently are truly tame by comparison, almost clinical. Until I actually cap-out my heat scale and shutdown, it is essentially meaningless.

IMO, part of what made Battletech the great game that it was, both in the TT and in all its electronic incarnations throughout history, was the “thinking man’s” aspect of heat management. I personally miss that aspect in this game. The more factors the player has to manage in combat, the better. Why not introduce some real piloting tasks for the players to manage concurrently with moving and fighting? For example, if you are going to experience an ammo explosion (due to a crit or a cook-off, etc) maybe Betty could announce this fact to the player and give them a second or two to actually do something about it – to proactively shift focus and deal with it. Have the player maybe hit a key to dump ammo, or engage on-board fire suppression, or something – but they could, in those few seconds (if they were skilled), truly make a difference to their own survival. As it stands, you suffer effects like heat, crits, and ammo explosions passively – with no options, no choices – and as long as you are not dead, you just keep on moving and shooting. IMO, there needs to be more.

With an experience like this, becoming a “master” mechwarrior would not simply be a job of paying XP and GXP into various, banal piloting skills each for a particular chassis, it would become the sum of the experience of the player – and something to be proud of.

Edited by Vyx, 05 June 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 June 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

This is incorrect. The full turn is 10 seconds not the heat phase alone.

can you elaborate?
a TT turn is an abstraction of everything that happens in 10 seconds. heat dissipation would be spaced out in 10x 1 seconds intervals, but squashed for simplicity sake as the end of a turn not just the last second.... unless you using some set of rules i am lacking....i stopped buying BT products with the addition of acid rounds.

[Rhent]

Hellcat420, on 05 June 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

nobody defends the current heat system because that is part of the quick ttk problem(along with instant convergence). the current system allows mechs to fire way too much with no ill effects.

If they want to fix it, the developers have to start recognizing: DAMAGE PER HEAT or (DPH) / DAMAGE PER SEC = EFFECTIVE DAMAGE.

For example: AC/5 vs PPC who wins?

AC/5:
DPH 5 dam / 1 heat = 5
DPS 5 dam / 1.66 sec = 3.012
EFFECTIVE DAMAGE = 1.66

PPC:
DPH 10 dam / 10 heat = 1
DPS 10 dam / 4 sec = 2.5
EFFECTIVE DAMAGE = 0.4

The AC/5 is 3.7X's more effective than the PPC for putting out damage when factoring in heat and refire rate.

Having a system where ammo explosions never happen has made it where AC's are the preeminent weapon. AC's have all the advantages (focused fire, refire rate, low heat) that makes them the superior choice to use when dealing with a system with low heat dissipation. The Dev's can keep jiggering AC's, but short of greatly increasing AC refire rates or changing them to stream, the better solution would be to put in full on ammo explosions. AC's keep their distinct advantages, but now when they lose a segment that contains 3 tons of ammo it will kill them unless they had case and a STD engine.

[Trauglodyte]

FupDup, on 04 June 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

The question is, what part of TT heat is he referring to? There are multiple different paths that could point to.

Late to the party again, jeez:

- heat per second addition to JJs along with actually increasing the base heat so that it scales adequately with the total capacity (TT jjs were 3 heat base +1 per JJ after 3)
- heat based penalties

For the latter, you could easily do something like this:

• Tier 1 0-33% heat capacity (no penalties)
  
• Tier 2 34-66% heat capacity (removal of efficiences; essentially setting your mech to day 1 zero)
  
• Tier 3 67-99% heat capacity (efficiencies now become penalties)
  
• Additionally, incremental heat based convergence spread (ie, after 33% heat, each percentage of added heat pushes your convergence point back 15m)
  
• Finally, visual indicators of heat (blinking and yellowed out HUD - see shut down)
  
• Also, increased ammo explosion chance on destruction based on heat - I forgot that one

It would all sum up to a more emmersive game play while forcing the player to be smart with his/her payloads and when he/she fires. We're not talking about game breaking changes but rather stuff that forces the player to think and alters how they play.

[Mechteric]

Maybe they'll finally see they can remove Ghost Heat once TT style heat penalties are in

[Trauglodyte]

CapperDeluxe, on 05 June 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Maybe they'll finally see they can remove Ghost Heat once TT style heat penalties are in

I think that would definitely be on the table. If nothing else, they could loosen the multipliers and maybe widen the groups of weapons. PPCs never were adjusted after their heat went from 8 and 12 to 10 and 15. And, quite frankly, Lrg Lasers should be acceptable in a grouping of 3 as it is essentially the same amount of damage as 2 PPCs and almost the exact damage of 6 Md Lasers, both of which are the maximum before GH penalties kick in.

[Vweegit]

Vyx, on 05 June 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

What struck me .......

...to be proud of.

This idea intrigues me, actually. I like the very idea of having to have more skill and experience to master the game. Right now, the learning curve is quite low.

[wanderer]

Apnu, on 05 June 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Yup. In the TT, which the devs, once upon a time, said they would follow as close as possible, you could not attack while jumping. Plus it was harder to hit after jumping, there were also modifiers to be hit from jumping, but nothing as good as getting modifiers from high movement. I think it was +3 to be hit no matter how many hexes were crossed.

Once again, wrong.

Tactical Operations, page 86. It's called "Opportunity Fire" and for the last time yes, it's legal to fire while jumping.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Rhent, on 05 June 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

If they want to fix it, the developers have to start recognizing: DAMAGE PER HEAT or (DPH) / DAMAGE PER SEC = EFFECTIVE DAMAGE.

For example: AC/5 vs PPC who wins?

AC/5:
DPH 5 dam / 1 heat = 5
DPS 5 dam / 1.66 sec = 3.012
EFFECTIVE DAMAGE = 1.66

PPC:
DPH 10 dam / 10 heat = 1
DPS 10 dam / 4 sec = 2.5
EFFECTIVE DAMAGE = 0.4

The AC/5 is 3.7X's more effective than the PPC for putting out damage when factoring in heat and refire rate.

Having a system where ammo explosions never happen has made it where AC's are the preeminent weapon. AC's have all the advantages (focused fire, refire rate, low heat) that makes them the superior choice to use when dealing with a system with low heat dissipation. The Dev's can keep jiggering AC's, but short of greatly increasing AC refire rates or changing them to stream, the better solution would be to put in full on ammo explosions. AC's keep their distinct advantages, but now when they lose a segment that contains 3 tons of ammo it will kill them unless they had case and a STD engine.

Or reduce the AC ammo per tonne on 20,10,5 leave 2 with an advantage in dmg per tonne.

Edited by shad0w4life, 05 June 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

wanderer, on 05 June 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Once again, wrong.

Tactical Operations, page 86. It's called "Opportunity Fire" and for the last time yes, it's legal to fire while jumping.

Not to quibble the point, I don't know that anyone "smart" is saying that you can't or should fire while jumping. It is more that it should be a last ditch party for that double 6 roll twice in a row kind of thing.

[wanderer]

Trauglodyte, on 05 June 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Not to quibble the point, I don't know that anyone "smart" is saying that you can't or should fire while jumping. It is more that it should be a last ditch party for that double 6 roll twice in a row kind of thing.

I keep seeing people say "can't". Not "shouldn't". Can't. The difference is important.

I don't think one should be able to shoot with pinpoint accuracy while jumping, but I also don't think you should be prevented from firing (somewhat inaccurately) while jumping, and that's what Apnu was suggesting.

[Bernard Matthaios]

Sounds to me if they did implement such penalties it would give the flamer a significant buff. Allowing the chance to explode an opponents ammo is kinda a big deal.

I'm all for something like TT heat penalties. It's easier to understand, more immersive, and a realistic approach vs ghost heat.

[Trauglodyte]

wanderer, on 05 June 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

I keep seeing people say "can't". Not "shouldn't". Can't. The difference is important.

I don't think one should be able to shoot with pinpoint accuracy while jumping, but I also don't think you should be prevented from firing (somewhat inaccurately) while jumping, and that's what Apnu was suggesting.

And I'm totally with you. Too many people like to go with absolutes - damned baddy Siths

[Apnu]

wanderer, on 05 June 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Once again, wrong.

Tactical Operations, page 86. It's called "Opportunity Fire" and for the last time yes, it's legal to fire while jumping.

Yeah in the advanced rules. I'm talking in level 1 and level 2 rule sets.