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So, Is Nothing To Be Done About The Jump Sniping Meta?


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#141 Wolfways

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 06:51 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 05 June 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:


No.
Did you even watch the later tournament videos, they were horrible. It lacked any depth or excitement. I could go on for pages with actual lore and game-mechanic reasons why poptarting is bad for MWO. But I don't need to, the videos that PGI collected say it all.
If you enjoyed them, or think that poptarting should be in MWO, then maybe PONG is the video game you are looking for.

I don't think poptarting should be a thing in MWO. Imo JJ's are for travel not combat, and firing while in the air should be very difficult.
What i am saying is i don't personally have a problem dealing with them. Of course if my team doesn't know how to use cover then we'll likely lose the game to a team of poptarts as i can hardly be expected to take out all the enemy team by myself. If there are only a couple on the enemy team then they really aren't a problem. They're like slightly better LRM's which are pretty much pathetic anyway.

#142 Spades Kincaid

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:01 PM

View PostMystere, on 05 June 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:


The only derps I see around are those complaining about poptarts instead of continually practicing. :)

Eh, practicing and improving your play is always the first answer to go to (even if it alone doesn't solve everything)

But suggesting headshots are a 'counter' to poptarts was pretty derp-worthy.

ie - your spirit of intent may have merits, but the choice of conveyance was severely lacking. Especially when the easiest way to get a headshot kill is with pinpoint FLD. Oh, hey there poptart! :ph34r:

#143 Harmatia

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:04 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 04 June 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

They said they're going to add in leg damage and look into why mechs jumping are not taking the damage they should be. So, maybe soon™


I was wondering. I haven't played much in the last couple months, least of all any of my Shadowhawks. I was wondering why no matter how far I would fall, I never took any damage. This versus last year when running a light mech around 150kph would do damage if I hit a pebble.

#144 Mystere

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:24 PM

View PostSpades Kincaid, on 05 June 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Eh, practicing and improving your play is always the first answer to go to (even if it alone doesn't solve everything)

But suggesting headshots are a 'counter' to poptarts was pretty derp-worthy.

ie - your spirit of intent may have merits, but the choice of conveyance was severely lacking. Especially when the easiest way to get a headshot kill is with pinpoint FLD. Oh, hey there poptart! :rolleyes:


Read more carefully, because if you do, you will realize that my counter is "coordination" and not "head shots". For crying out loud, I even highlighted it. :rolleyes:

#145 Madw0lf

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostDemuder, on 05 June 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:


Yes, I am being sarcastic.

The fact alone that every day there's a new thread about it by new and old players alike, should at least indicate that there's some level of inherent problem. Sure, people deal with it in lots of different ways, some cry bloody murder, some try to be constructive, some just try and deal with it. That doesn't diminish the fact that it is a problem.

I don't understand however how childish behavior can create a problem out of nothing. Afterall, childish behavior is to be expected in any game, anytime. If you have not prepared your game to handle it, and are actually promoting such behavior by further ignoring the issues that cause it, or the problems it creates, you are only digging your own hole.

Some level that has been blown completely out of proportion by actions such as suggested in the OP (Abuse and theyll fix it!) and right here in the forums, whinning about it. This coupled with the attitude of "Oh Im playing a game to have fun, to have fun I have to beat the other guy, so I have to use this derp build, but that build isnt fun!" that seems to persist.....most of the "communities" (and I use that term loosely) problems are its own.

I dont see poptarts, ever in game. Maybe Im too n00btastic? I feel like I should be in the average Elo range, but who knows. And there will always, always be that one *good* setup thats just easier to do well in for a decent number of people. Youll never eliminate that.

#146 Mystere

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:34 PM

View PostMadw0lf, on 05 June 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

I dont see poptarts, ever in game. Maybe Im too n00btastic? I feel like I should be in the average Elo range, but who knows. And there will always, always be that one *good* setup thats just easier to do well in for a decent number of people. Youll never eliminate that.


You are not n00btastic at all. Rather, you are in Elo heaven. :rolleyes:

#147 zortesh

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:38 PM

So i've got a kdr on a measly 1.30 on average and 2.0 on the mechs I'm really good with, my win loss is also a measly 1.2-1.3...

How much will i need to suicide deliberately before i stop seeing 4-8 poptarts in every match?

#148 Mystere

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:40 PM

View Postzortesh, on 05 June 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

So i've got a kdr on a measly 1.30 on average and 2.0 on the mechs I'm really good with, my win loss is also a measly 1.2-1.3...

How much will i need to suicide deliberately before i stop seeing 4-8 poptarts in every match?


Suicide? I prefer killing them.

#149 FupDup

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:40 PM

View Postzortesh, on 05 June 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

-
How much will i need to suicide deliberately before i stop seeing 4-8 poptarts in every match?

Infinity, most likely.

#150 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:42 PM

View PostMystere, on 05 June 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:


Read more carefully, because if you do, you will realize that my counter is "coordination" and not "head shots". For crying out loud, I even highlighted it. :rolleyes:


No. Coordination is something everyone can do. Poptartting is the simplistic peak meta behavior that poor design choices have enshrined as the optimal play style.

The only reason poptarting works is because most people don't do it. Not because they can't; I can teach a monkey to poptart with a Highlander 732, 30 incredibly boring minutes and 2 bunches of bananas. I don't, like most people don't, because I want more variety from the game than 2 weapons, 3 mechs and 1 trick. The problem is that we have 2 choices - either buy into the dichotomy of playing in a way we don't enjoy because it gives us the best odds of winning which can be fun in its own way or option 2, play in a way we enjoy even though it puts us at a disadvantage.

It has nothing to do with coordination or skill. Nothing at all to do with either - it takes less skill to poptart than it does to play a boomjag. Poptarting is harder than LRMing, but not a whole lot. That's why it's the peak meta - it provides the biggest benefit for the lowest complexity and effort. Coordination and skill exist outside of PGIs intentional creation, protection and support of the distinct and significant advantage poptarting has in the game.

This is the game they want. Absolutely no question. The current poptart meta is the one they have painstakingly built and balanced for over the last 2 years. AC10s got a range, projectile speed and projectile dropoff nerf, MGs have had a dozen changes, there have been slews of things they felt were important enough to get altered (not even fixed - I mean altered) while poptarting was carefully sheltered and protected. NOW, 2 years later, they're talking about maybe some sort of leg damage? That will be insufficient to really stop poptarting or else.... why have jump-jets? A bit of a slowing down for the Highlander and nerfing the Victors ability to *brawl* (not poptart, but do anything EXCEPT poptart)...

No, this is what PGI wants. Someone said it earlier - the point is to make poptarting the peak meta but so freaking dull and simplistic and boring that anyone who's just playing the game for fun won't bother most the time, thus letting people who don't mind boredom if it means winning at something feel like they're above average. If everyone poptarted then 99% of the poptarts in this game would suddenly realize they are, at best, average.

Good player swill be good with any meta, any build, any mech. Poptarting is a crutch or even a burden for a good player because it's so much better than any/every other setup that if you don't do it you're gimping yourself. The problem with poptarting is it rewards mediocrity. It creates a simple to learn and easy to deploy tactic that provides a significant advantage letting the mediocre excel against people who are otherwise better but have no interest in endlessly rinsing and repeating the same tired behaviors.

That's why poptarting is toxic. It exists to reward and encourage mediocrity by creating a single peak build/design that is significantly superior to all others as to provide anyone who cares more about winning than playing Battletech a way to get their winning fix while still being only mediocre at the game.

#151 Xephan

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:46 PM

A reduced level of jump jet shake while falling *instead of none* would fix the pinpoint.

#152 Mystere

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 June 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

I can teach a monkey to poptart with a Highlander 732,


Please do so and document everything in video format. I am sure the scientific community will be interested in such a thing. But then again maybe not.


View PostMischiefSC, on 05 June 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Good player swill be good with any meta, any build, any mech ...


This is all that matters to me.

#153 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:55 PM

View PostMystere, on 05 June 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:


Please do so and document everything in video format. I am sure the scientific community will be interested in such a thing. But then again maybe not.


It'd just be another Adam Sandler movie, maybe a bit more engrossing. I'm not comfortable doing that to the world.

View PostMystere, on 05 June 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

This is all that matters to me.


Then get rid of the damn poptart meta. The narrower the difference between builds and playstyles the more the cream will rise to the top. I see people erroneously blaming the matchmaker and such. No, the issue is that one particular playstyle (VOIP with poptarts) is drastically, significantly superior to everything else and so even if you're only 'meh' at the game, you practice that a bit and you'll be punching 40lbs above your weight is the issue.

The flatter the field the more skill shines through. This is the bit people miss -

IT'S NOT ABOUT MAKING EVERYONE EVEN. IT'S ABOUT MAKING MORE BUILDS, MECHS AND STYLES EVEN SO THAT YOUR SKILL WITH WHAT YOU ENJOY SETS YOU APART. NOT YOUR WILLINGNESS TO GRIND THAT ONE THING THAT GIVES YOU A 20% ADVANTAGE. BALANCING MECHS, WEAPONS AND BUILDS IS WHAT MAKES SKILL RELEVANT.

#154 Spades Kincaid

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:01 PM

View PostNikkoru, on 05 June 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:


That's the thing though. There is no counter. There is no other viable option. There is no "B deck" That's why 60% of the players in any given match are jump sniping.


In response to that, you posted:

View PostMystere, on 05 June 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:


What would happen if a Firestarter F/K/S dumps all of the damage potential of it's 7/8 medium lasers into a poptart's cockpit?

What would happen if a pair of ground-bound mechs each put 2 PPC shots into a poptart's cockpit?

What would happen if every mech in a lance put 2 PPC shots into a Dragon Slayer's right torso as it jumped up?


Besides:

View PostVweegit, on 05 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:


Move up to competitive play, or high elo. You will see coordinated teams doing this. There are counters, of course, but it is not as easy as you think when you're facing a competent lance or two.



It may not be easy at all. And nobody says it is.


I read it just fine.

2 out of 3 of your proposed 'counters' involve headshots.

The part you highlighted was 'there are counters....' Not the coordinated teams.


Even if you meant to draw focus to coordination 'besides', it doesn't make proposing headshots as a counter before that any less silly. Yeah, you did that. :rolleyes:

#155 DjPush

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:08 PM

Altering the weapons was the wrong way to go to deal with pop-tarting. Changing the way the mech moves in the air is probably a better method. I mech should have to use its arms and body to balance itself in the air making it almost impossible to pinpoint weapons on a target.

#156 zortesh

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:19 PM

Honestly, the easyiest fix would be making jumpjets like in the novels, good for repositioning, crazily hurling yourself through the air to land 150-200 meters away, with the slightest mistake resulting in heavy damage and landing on your face.

#157 Mystere

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:27 PM

View PostSpades Kincaid, on 05 June 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

In response to that, you posted:

I read it just fine.

2 out of 3 of your proposed 'counters' involve headshots.

The part you highlighted was 'there are counters....' Not the coordinated teams.

Even if you meant to draw focus to coordination 'besides', it doesn't make proposing headshots as a counter before that any less silly. Yeah, you did that. :rolleyes:



And 2 out of 3 also involved coordination. Plus, the highlighted portion I was referring to was:

View PostAssaultPig, on 05 June 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

I love how all of the 'counters' to poptarting require either 1) coordination from multiple friendles or 2) otherworldly accuracy or 3) both.


:rolleyes:

#158 Divine Retribution

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:29 PM

View Postzortesh, on 05 June 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

So i've got a kdr on a measly 1.30 on average and 2.0 on the mechs I'm really good with, my win loss is also a measly 1.2-1.3...

How much will i need to suicide deliberately before i stop seeing 4-8 poptarts in every match?


Actually you could kill 11 of them and then let the last enemy cap win. Elo is based on W:L, not KDR. I think that Elo based upon KDR is a misconception which has been popular since the introduction of Elo matchmaking.

#159 zortesh

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:37 PM

Hmm... how would i deliberately cause my team to lose repeatably without doing anything reportable?

#160 Divine Retribution

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:06 PM

You also have a different Elo for each weight class, maybe one weight class will avoid most groups until you win more. So to lower all your scores you need to lose with all 4 weight classes. It could also be that there isn't an Elo bracket without 4-man poptarts.

But general suggestions: Play a locust? That is very likely to encourage your light mech Elo to go down. You could just bring joke builds and not try to throw the matches (fun to play but not particularly effective), it will probably also lower your Elo. Or just choose the worst possible strategies that are used in game by others.

Some bad strategy examples are: Let someone else lead a charge then don't back them up (just watch them die, possibly by also being in the way of other friendlies who want to back up the mech on point), in a brawl make sure you target an enemy mech that none of your teammates are firing at to ensure damage is spread out, remove your targeting if friendly missiles are coming towards what you are fighting against, bring an assault mech and hide in the back of your team to force lighter mechs to lead charges, bring a slow assault for 100% cap duty on conquest, and make your personal survival more important than anything else (Cuz KDR iz import-cents brah). There are many other options, but as I wrote above, the meta-mans may be unavoidable.

Just remember that you are only 1/12 of your team, so you can only do so much for good or for ill.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 05 June 2014 - 09:10 PM.






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