220 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

vortmax, on 06 June 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Turn off weapon convergence while airborne.

Nope. We should go full Monty and have:

• zero weapon convergence on torso/head-mounted weapons and independently-controlled arms
  
• manually-dialed convergence to a specific distance.

And any of the above applied all the time.


<maniacal >

[Nikkoru]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

What are your propositions fo fix the poptarting? I've not once seen you voice your opinion

I gave my solution on page 2, top of the page.

So, it would seem that the answer to my question was 3, then.

Edited by Nikkoru, 06 June 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Nikkoru, on 06 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

I gave my solution on page 2, top of the page.

So, obviously the answer was 3, then.

You think that's an answer? Which ruins lights and meds just as much as assaults and heavies?

That's a very poor answer. This trolling thread of yours...well, you are very good at it.

And aren't you the one who complained about personal attacks? Some maturity would go a long way.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 June 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[Hexenhammer]

Nikkoru, on 06 June 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

I haven't read you posts on other threads, but I have read your posts on this thread, where you attack the people asking for a change to the game balance.

Now you say you actually are against poptarting, but your behavior in this thread says otherwise.

So, logically there can only be three possibilities:
1) You are lying.
2) You are trolling.
3) You are mentally ill.

So, which is it?

Oh I can do questions like that too.

Have you stopped beating your wife Nikkoru?

[Nikkoru]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

You think that's an answer? Which ruins lights and meds just as much as assaults and heavies? That's a very poor answer.

First of all, you are wrong. There are a ton of light and medium mech pilots out there that don't have jump jets and are incredibly successful. I think they would disagree with your tantrum.

Second of all, even if you were right, what is wrong with hurting lights and mediums in order to restore overall game balance? What makes lights and mediums so sacred that they cannot take one for the team every once in a while?

Third of all, instead of tooting your own horn as hard as you can about the suggestions you have made in other threads, why not post them here? You claim to think balance needs to be restored, but it is obvious that the only thing you are really interested in doing in this thread is accusing me of trolling.

I have made suggestions towards the topic of this thread. If anyone is a troll here, it is you.

Now, go back under your bridge and don't come back until you have some of those godly answers you claim to have tucked under your dirty sheets.

Hexenhammer, on 06 June 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Have you stopped beating your wife Nikkoru?

Don't have a wife. Woman are not allowed to marry in my state, so the love of my life remains a girlfriend only. But, hey, thanks for coming into my thread just to rub salt in my wound. It must be really nice to sit up on top of that pile of privilage and make fun of those who are different from you.

Freaking mysogynist.

[Mcgral18]

Nikkoru, on 06 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

First of all, you are wrong. There are a ton of light and medium mech pilots out there that don't have jump jets and are incredibly successful. I think they would disagree with your tantrum.

Second of all, even if you were right, what is wrong with hurting lights and mediums in order to restore overall game balance? What makes lights and mediums so sacred that they cannot take one for the team every once in a while?

Third of all, instead of tooting your own horn as hard as you can about the suggestions you have made in other threads, why not post them here? You claim to think balance needs to be restored, but it is obvious that the only thing you are really interested in doing in this thread is accusing me of trolling.

I have made suggestions towards the topic of this thread. If anyone is a troll here, it is you.

Now, go back under your bridge and don't come back until you have some of those godly answers you claim to have tucked under your dirty sheets.


Don't have a wife. Woman are not allowed to marry in my state, so the love of my life remains a girlfriend only. But, hey, thanks for coming into my thread just to rub salt in my wound. It must be really nice to sit up on top of that pile of privilage and make fun of those who are different from you.

Freaking mysogynist.

...well, you certainly show your character. Insulting every person who quotes you?


As for ideas, I'll give you a short list of things that could work.

Disable convergence when jumping, everything aims parallel. Shouldn't affect lights or jump brawlers too much, since you're in their face already. It will stop every weapon from hitting the same panel at range, but not make poptarting impossible. Simply less effective. That 30-40 PP FLD strike just became 10-20.

Increase PPC recycle, doesn't affect the poptarting aspect at all, but when/if you close you stand a better chance in a brawl, since at the moment the PPC, AC20, SRM6 and ML all have a 4 second cooldown. Easiest to implement.

PPC damage transfer mechanic, again this one doesn't affect the base mechanics of poptarting, but instead of 30+ PP FLD, it's reduced to 20-27.5 damage to a single location. Not sure how hard this would be to implement.

Have an energy drain rating, and have a limit to how many PPCs, Gauss or even large amounts of lasers can be fired simultaneously. This stop massive PP FLD alphas, and would encourage/require chainfire to fire multiple PPCs, but again doesn't affect their base game mechanics.


Those are some simply solutions, which would all have some impact or another without ruining other classes. Some would affect the other classes, but shouldn't remove any tactics from the game.

[Nikkoru]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

...well, you certainly show your character. Insulting every person who attacks you?

It worked on you, didn't it?

The only way to deal with men is to crack them over the head and make them pay attention. Otherwise you just get ignored.

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

Disable convergence when jumping, everything aims parallel. Shouldn't affect lights or jump brawlers too much, since you're in their face already. It will stop every weapon from hitting the same panel at range, but not make poptarting impossible. Simply less effective. That 30-40 PP FLD strike just became 10-20.

Increase PPC recycle, doesn't affect the poptarting aspect at all, but when/if you close you stand a better chance in a brawl, since at the moment the PPC, AC20, SRM6 and ML all have a 4 second cooldown. Easiest to implement.

PPC damage transfer mechanic, again this one doesn't affect the base mechanics of poptarting, but instead of 30+ PP FLD, it's reduced to 20-27.5 damage to a single location. Not sure how hard this would be to implement.

Have an energy drain rating, and have a limit to how many PPCs, Gauss or even large amounts of lasers can be fired simultaneously. This stop massive PP FLD alphas, and would encourage/require chainfire to fire multiple PPCs, but again doesn't affect their base game mechanics.

Those are good suggestions. I approve of them. Well done.

What would you say to disabling shooting while jumping for heavies and assaults, but still allowing it for lights and mediums? Might make it a feature for their weight class while still correcting much of the current game imbalance.

Edited by Nikkoru, 06 June 2014 - 09:41 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Nikkoru, on 06 June 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

Those are good suggestions. I approve of them. Well done.

What would you say to disabling shooting while jumping for heavies and assaults, but still allowing it for lights and mediums? Might make it a feature for their weight class while still correcting much of the current game imbalance.

I'm against removing it entirely. It should be a tactic available to use. But not so blatantly superior, and easy to do.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 June 2014 - 09:46 PM.

[Kyle Wright]

How about you guys just go look at the command chair post. Srm Buckton fix, Jj heat, and JJ leg damage are coming. Can't wait for the QQING over srms being op.

Edited by Kyle Wright, 06 June 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[YueFei]

Kyle Wright, on 06 June 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

How about you guys just go look at the command chair post. Srm Buckton fix, Jj heat, and JJ leg damage are coming. Can't wait for the QQING over sums being op.

I think the JJ heat and JJ leg damage misses the mark. People trying to use jump jets to get tons of air and make big leaps are gonna wreck their legs. Jump snipers who make the shortest possible jump to clear their mech from the waist-up to get a shot won't be affected. JJ heat will impact brawlers who cannot afford to break off once they are committed. It will also impact jump snipers, but not as much since they can often find opportunities to break off and cool down.

As for SRMs: in Testing Grounds, at 90 meters, against an Awesome facing head-on, it's pretty much a wash between SRMs and AC5. 2xASRM6 is 8 tons, 6 slots, 2 hardpoints. 1xAC5 is 8 tons, 4 slots, 1 hardpoint. The SRMs get a TTK that's 23% faster than the AC5. And the SRMs generate 250% of the heat that the AC5 does to bring it down.

Even with the perfect hit detection in Testing Grounds, and no lag, on a stationary Awesome as the target.... SRMs just barely outperformed the AC5. Add in a resisting, maneuvering opponent, and the extra heat of the SRMs can become a very real problem, requiring you to slow your rate of fire, giving up your TTK advantage. Add extra heat to jump jetting and that's gonna be a problem.

Don't forget: Paul is considering nerfing SRMs back to 1.5 damage-per-missile once the Buckton fix is in. Keeping in mind that SRMs are already underperforming vs AC5 in Testing Grounds at their current value of 2.15, putting them at 1.5 will actually mean that SRMs will have a *worse* TTK performance compared to the same tonnage of AC5s at a range of 90 meters.

Basically, Paul cannot into simple math and investigation in a game in which he is responsible for balancing things. Game balance is just a pipe dream.

[cSand]

Kyle Wright, on 06 June 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

How about you guys just go look at the command chair post. Srm Buckton fix, Jj heat, and JJ leg damage are coming. Can't wait for the QQING over srms being op.

Lol

This is waht I imagine it being like:

From this:



To this:

[Col Jaime Wolf]

to the OP "no" PGI will not fix their broken game. sry mate

I have all weight classes and play different mechs often. I dont like playing the same mech for to long. it gets boring you know? and even when i find an umorgs crusher build (Pheonix battlemaster with 2PPC in the top slots, 2 ac5's 4ml and 1LPL in the RA call it the scrapper ) I find that i dont really like playing it for to long it just gets boring and i need a challenge (drops in TDK! TDK! TDK! all the way!)

cuz some mechs are this thing called "fun". I dont see the need to smack my epeen all over the enemies faces just because i discovered that its trollish to use PPC's in a jump snipe or an ECM mech (Atlas DDC aside, really feel bad for that mech actually, to big to be play around with tiny weapons, to slow to really be as effective as an atlas should be)

problem is all to often i see 4+ pop snipes and ive seen as many as 10 assault snipers and 2 lrm boats. how the MM comes up with this $hit idk. im just in my you know atlas II build with my RS (look it up and then laugh) lookin at this $hit like...... "jimmies... i dont think we are gonna win this but we can try" cuz im trying to explore new builds and find mechs that are "fun" to play.

and honestly in most matches it feels like there are at least 6 of them in some form or another (i actually count those light mechs with dual ppc's in this because its the same thing shoot...hide. shoot...hide....shoot run away hide...) yes im looking squarely at you dual ppc spiders, jenners, firestarters and cicadas. you have no purpose other then trolling, you cant fight another light, you cant even fight med mechs. you just hunt big slow targets. i would compare you to a big game hunter using this



there is nothing to gloat about, no skill to be had, congratulations you learned to point and click and that is really all the skill needed. does it really feel that good to hunt elephants with a 50 cal BMG?

and be honest guys/ladies how many times have you seen at least half of your team or half of the enemies team be nothing but FLD FTW?

and Firstly before i get into my tirad let me say this about JJ. do not F#c#ing nerf JJ. make them push you faster, make mechs fall faster. make JJ catapult your mech into the fray and have such an impulse that it makes aiming a true feat of skill. but for the love of battletech (and lights) DO NOT MAKE JJ WORSE THEN THEY ALREADY ARE. cuz honestly JJ are pretty terribad in anything that isnt a light, an lrm boat or a ppc snipe..... hmmm and people like to QQ on that PPC+AC synergy.

I repeat JJ do not really help laser boats, balanced mixed weapons builds they only really help hill cresting pinpoint FLD/lrms and lights. and only the lights have an excuse (tin can just waiting to be one-shot).

only real solution is what many have said, ppcs are gonna have to splash or move much slower or arc or turn into a hitscan (DOT) weapon period.

gauss charge has got to go, no one that was ever good with it needed the extra projectile speed, neither did i. as a whole the charge just ruined gauss and made dual gauss mandatory for anyone that wanted to use it (a HAG 30 with charge delay ). and only 2 mechs can wield it so..... its a weapon that only really works good on 2 chasis? out of over a hundred?

now gauss is a just 3ppc's with a way faster projectile no heat, some ammo considerations and a charge.



AC's are gonna have to become burst fire because if PPC's become splash then everyone will go AC's for the pinpoint.

Normal lasers are going to have to have a shorter duration so they can land where you want them. Pulse lasers are going to have to have an ungodly short duration (like 0.5 sec) to be competitive with the current system.

Ghost heat has got to go, its stupid and prevents you from boating lasers more then any other weapon. which makes no sense cuz lasers are not even worth it sometimes.

think otherwise? grab a victor 9B slap an AC2/AC5/ultra 5 into that arm and a streak 4+bap, the biggest XL+JJ you can fit and wabam you are the god brawler mech, if you were to add anything would you prefer lasers or those nice sexy.... ppcs? think about it you know you just wish that ERPPC (with 15 heat oh my) could be fit in there somehow.... a nice 10 damage to add to your long range suppression fire. and a nice unlimited ammo AC10 to finish cracked mechs in the brawl. lasers? pffft i would rather drop the streaks and cram that bad boy in there then take "lasers".

and think about this now because if you make a dakka mech thats all speed and ROF, whats going to be your downfall? oh right that ppc snipe thats humping a hill like it was his mom. or that LRM boat is gonna make you keep your head down till his hill humping buddies decimate your team. of course your going to try and cram a PPC or two into almost ANY mech.

cuz otherwise it would just be you sitting there the whole time saying "ermg nubs just stay behind cover let them leroy" sure your smart enough to stay behind cover most of the time, but that wont stop your team from being leveled and your brawler is left out in the cold with nothing but a stick fighting off ravenous bears or falcons or something.

what about a DDC with 2MPL 2 ultra 5's and that SRM18+art? its nice and smacks $hit down but honestly... we all know that ECM is the only reason it can get close enough to deliver the goods. and half the time your SRMS dont register, an atlas is far to large a mech to be messing around with streak 2's yet you may find the streak 2's much better then SRMS because again.... they just miss magically and they do it alot.

any wonder we see the fatlas DDC lurm master over almost any other DDC build?

point being, the weapons are all wrong. we should take pinpoint and maybe convergence and...



and as a side note IS LRM's according to cannon dont home (kinda like how streaks dont home either)

http://www.sarna.net...Semi-Guided_LRM

so i ask... where is my arrow IV so i can go noob cannon people for the lulz?

Edited by Mellifluer, 07 June 2014 - 12:19 AM.

[GumbyC2C]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

The issue with the current chainfire is that you can only chainfire 4 MLs before the first is ready to recycle. So, 4 wasted MLs and also a SL.

You'd have to change the chainfire mechanic to allow that to work, especially since the 4P is a stock mech.

Two weapon groups of four each. You would just have to be skilled to manage that many weapons. That is something I don't have a problem with.

[Nightfire]

Wolfways, on 06 June 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

But:
1) i'm not made of metal.
2) I'm not designed to absorb the recoil of a weapon.

Tanks don't fly backwards when they fire because they are designed to absorb the recoil (partly).

• It matters not one whit whether you are made of metal or flesh as to how much recoil is effective against moving you. What matters is mass. 100 Tons of metal weighs the same as 100 Tons of flesh. A = F/M, M = Mass, not Metal.
  
• Actually, you are built to absorb recoil if you know how to use a rifle correctly. Firearms weren't designed to do maximum damage to the users of said weapons. The way you brace a rifle and the way the body moves with the recoil force of the rifle serves the same effect as your soon to me mentioned Tank Cannon's recoil absorption.
  
• Tanks don't flip mainly because they have a low center of gravity (they are wide/long and low) and they weigh a huge amount. that low center of gravity is a really big thing! The recoil systems help a good deal but (for many reasons, not just cannon recoil) the development of tanks has been towards lower, flatter tanks not big, bipedal robots with high centers of gravity. Kind of like people have a high center of gravity. At any rate, the deflection here is that tanks don't flip over thus they aren't affected by recoil or the recoil is insignificant. Just watch any tank fire and notice how it gets rocked about once the shell is fired. On the move, the ability to absorb that recoil is reduced significantly.
  
• Finally, look a the effect the recoil has on a tank (not to mention accuracy) once they fire on the move and then when they fire at full speed.

How many tanks do you see firing their main cannon, sideways, at full throttle while in the air from a jump?
I hold my point still stands.

[R Razor]

Nightfire, on 07 June 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

• It matters not one whit whether you are made of metal or flesh as to how much recoil is effective against moving you. What matters is mass. 100 Tons of metal weighs the same as 100 Tons of flesh. A = F/M, M = Mass, not Metal.
  
• Actually, you are built to absorb recoil if you know how to use a rifle correctly. Firearms weren't designed to do maximum damage to the users of said weapons. The way you brace a rifle and the way the body moves with the recoil force of the rifle serves the same effect as your soon to me mentioned Tank Cannon's recoil absorption.
  
• Tanks don't flip mainly because they have a low center of gravity (they are wide/long and low) and they weigh a huge amount. that low center of gravity is a really big thing! The recoil systems help a good deal but (for many reasons, not just cannon recoil) the development of tanks has been towards lower, flatter tanks not big, bipedal robots with high centers of gravity. Kind of like people have a high center of gravity. At any rate, the deflection here is that tanks don't flip over thus they aren't affected by recoil or the recoil is insignificant. Just watch any tank fire and notice how it gets rocked about once the shell is fired. On the move, the ability to absorb that recoil is reduced significantly.
  
• Finally, look a the effect the recoil has on a tank (not to mention accuracy) once they fire on the move and then when they fire at full speed.

How many tanks do you see firing their main cannon, sideways, at full throttle while in the air from a jump?

I hold my point still stands.

Should try and find some of the old videos of the Stryker MGS when it was in testing.......8 wheeled vehicle with a large cannon (think it was initially a 120mm but might be wrong) that would flip when fired with the turret facing sideways.......took a lot of compromises and engineering changes to get the thing to work right........ended up with a 105mm cannon at the end of the day precisely because of recoil issues.

[Wolfways]

Nightfire, on 07 June 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

• It matters not one whit whether you are made of metal or flesh as to how much recoil is effective against moving you. What matters is mass. 100 Tons of metal weighs the same as 100 Tons of flesh. A = F/M, M = Mass, not Metal.
  
• Actually, you are built to absorb recoil if you know how to use a rifle correctly. Firearms weren't designed to do maximum damage to the users of said weapons. The way you brace a rifle and the way the body moves with the recoil force of the rifle serves the same effect as your soon to me mentioned Tank Cannon's recoil absorption.
  
• Tanks don't flip mainly because they have a low center of gravity (they are wide/long and low) and they weigh a huge amount. that low center of gravity is a really big thing! The recoil systems help a good deal but (for many reasons, not just cannon recoil) the development of tanks has been towards lower, flatter tanks not big, bipedal robots with high centers of gravity. Kind of like people have a high center of gravity. At any rate, the deflection here is that tanks don't flip over thus they aren't affected by recoil or the recoil is insignificant. Just watch any tank fire and notice how it gets rocked about once the shell is fired. On the move, the ability to absorb that recoil is reduced significantly.
  
• Finally, look a the effect the recoil has on a tank (not to mention accuracy) once they fire on the move and then when they fire at full speed.

How many tanks do you see firing their main cannon, sideways, at full throttle while in the air from a jump?

I hold my point still stands.

Your comparison was a human firing a gun. My point was we (humans) are not "designed" to absorb weapon recoil. The weapon is designed to not hurt us.
Your points above make perfect sense though, and are what i was basically saying but i put it too simple.

Mechs are obviously designed to absorb the recoil of weapons that are fitted to them, just like tanks but in a different way (i.e. not the low center of gravity. Yeah i know, techs in BT lore are just....weird ). An AC20 on a 100ton Atlas will cause very little recoil. Of course the same weapon on a smaller mech is a different story which is why the majority of small mechs aren't designed to carry big" weapons, unless specifically designed as "special role" mechs.

Imo any mech that is carrying weapons that it was not designed to carry should have some penalty (like higher recoil/heat) for using a bigger weapon

[Mcgral18]

GumbyC2C, on 06 June 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

Two weapon groups of four each. You would just have to be skilled to manage that many weapons. That is something I don't have a problem with.

So you don't want an enforced global chainfire? If I understand what you just described, I could put 2 PPCs and 2 AC5s on 4 different weapon groups and not have an issue, if I can have 2 groups of lasers do the same thing.

It's a flawed mechanic, unless you want to describe it a bit more.


It's not skilled if it doesn't let you fire them at all, and it's not a good measure if it doesn't even touch the thing you intended to change.

[Nikkoru]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm against removing it entirely. It should be a tactic available to use. But not so blatantly superior, and easy to do.

Fair enough. How would you feel about introducing a jam mechanic when weapons are fired in mid-jump? Explain it as some sort of gyro overload and reset.

[Mcgral18]

Nikkoru, on 07 June 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Fair enough. How would you feel about introducing a jam mechanic when weapons are fired in mid-jump? Explain it as some sort of gyro overload and reset.

Define Jam? As in, you are stuck looking in the direction you fired your weapons? That stops defensive torso twisting, makes it more open to being hit while still in the air. Doesn't affect the damage mechanic itself.

Or jamming the weapons, as in an increased cooldown?

Or something entirely different?

[Nikkoru]

Mcgral18, on 07 June 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Define Jam? As in, you are stuck looking in the direction you fired your weapons? That stops defensive torso twisting, makes it more open to being hit while still in the air. Doesn't affect the damage mechanic itself.

Or jamming the weapons, as in an increased cooldown?

Or something entirely different?

Sorry, I meant jamming the weapons and creating a cooldown after having fired them in the air.