180 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

Would this work?

Change PPC & ERPPC min range to 0

PPC & ERPPC gain full 10 damage potential at 100 meters, ramp up 1 damage each 10 meters, or decimal percentages for inbetweens.

EMP knockout starts at 50 meters to full max range on both PPC & ERPPC.

PPC & ERPPC deliver 50% of heat used to fire, and gives that heat to the enemy on a hit.
Heat tapers off starting at 50% for optimal range, and ramps down beyond that range.

PPC heat is pretty good where its at 10.
ERPPC heat reduced to 12.5 or 13

Since convergence can't be figured out in any sensible manner, PPC's need a little softening on how they deal damage.

So simulate a little splash.

On point, damage is 7.5 directly where it hits. Each body part near the hit recieves a % of splash damage and would require a formula for how it spreads.

A perfect CT hit in optimal range would give
7.5 to CT
0.75 to RT LT (1.25 total), 0.42 to HEAD/RA/LA (1.25 total)

Or randomly 1.25 to RT, 1.25 to RL (total 2.5) (as though its trying to ground the circuit, as lightning would do)

An arm hit
7.5 to Right Arm
2.5 to RT

Does this sound reasonable?

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 05 June 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

No spread mechanic, sorry.


PPC IS balanced. Perfect weapon convergence is the issue. (Well one of the issues) Go slap a single PPC on your griffin, and support weapons, and come back and tell me how fearsome that PPC was. Or a near Stock K2. Keep the MG and Mediums, and bring back the 1000 damage match screens.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just tired of people wanting to "fix" the symptoms, instead of the disease.

[Karl Streiger]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

Not trying to rain on your parade, just tired of people wanting to "fix" the symptoms, instead of the disease.

QFT

although i would like to have a splash damage for PPCs. Something that rips of legs and arms of a locust with one hit.
So instead of 1 shot each 4sec what about 1 shot each 8-12 second with 10dmg point and ~ 5-7 dmg splash.
afaik the splash damage seems to be nasty in MWO

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 June 2014 - 04:18 AM.

[Ph30nix]

fix convergance dont nerf the weapons. you fix convergance you'd solve ALOT of problems and the weapons would be mostly okay.

also if you nerf PPC's you would just encourage more AC's And lets face it you can get maybe 3-4 shots off with a PPC before you have to back off and cool off.

[Cyborne Elemental]

PPC's were meant to soften targets at long range, not annihilate them instantly at long range.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister D, on 05 June 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

PPC's were meant to soften targets at long range, not annihilate them instantly at long range.

Have you seen the effect of a Awesome or Schrek on an enemy medium or light on TT? I know convergence make the issue worse here but those were two fabulous PPC boats on TT. And instantly annihilating my enemy is what I strive to do.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 June 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Mister D, on 05 June 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

PPC's were meant to soften targets at long range, not annihilate them instantly at long range.

ehrm sry, have to disagree. LRMs were in 3025 weapons to soft them up. the PPC was always the annihilating weapon.

Joseph Mallan, on 05 June 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Have you seen the effect of a Awesome or Schrek on an enemy medium or light on TT? I know convergence make the issue worse here but those were two fabulous PPC boats on TT.

QFT

...give me a lance o Shrecks give me time to dig in - and no Mech will pass

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 June 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 05 June 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

PPC's were meant to soften targets at long range, not annihilate them instantly at long range.

PPCs have always done 10 (15 for clan) damage to one location at long range. Not splash. Not spread. You got LRMs and LB-X for that. PPCs are a bloody laser guided, focused bolt of lightning. They even named a wicked white lightning based cocktail after them because of the punch PPCs were famous for. They were, and should be, considered, ton for ton, the most effective weapon developed, with heat being their achilles heal (and short range accuracy, which BTW, they still did FULL damage under 90 meters, they simply had a serious to hit penalty)

So again, park the emotion, and look at the actual issue, please. It's not the weapon, but the core mechanics. Keep nerfing every weapon and soon all we will have are nerf guns.

[Escef]

The (non-ER) PPC did have decreasing damage under 90 meters, it was done away with and changed to none to make the ER PPC look better. The ERPPC used to generate 13 heat, but this made the weapon too popular, and so it was bumped up to 15. To the best of my knowledge, there is no history of PPCs in the Mechwarrior franchise or in table top Battletech dealing heat damage to targets (though I would play the hell out of the Plasma Rifle if we ever get it). I'm pretty happy with the EMP effect of PPCs, even dealing no damage, one can PPC an ECM light and then get a Streak lock.

[Lykaon]

Still people are not seeing the real issue

It's not convergence the instant convergence magnifies the problem but is not the problem in and of it's self.

If it was only convergence then why do we not see any of the non front loaded damage represented in the meta?

Do we see hoards of Victors with large lasers and LB10xs? Do we see swarms of poptarts using pulse lasers or lasers?

No we don't because Instant convergence is not the problem it does however vastly increase the effects of FLD.

Look at it like this let's say we get a suitable solution and instant convergence is rectified.All weapons are now effected by the same blanket rules that fixed the convergence issues.

What game do we have now?

Well Front loaded damage is still the superior method of applying damage.We will see a reduction in high volume FLD alphas but,will we see other weapons becoming as effective as FLD weapons?

We won't because convergence effects all weapons equally so Lasers will not get instant convergence just like an AC or PPC yet the AC or PPC will still never fail to apply 100% of the potential damage to a single location on the target when the target is hit.Lasers are still squiggling damage over several location meanwhile PPCs are blasting 10 point chunks out of center torsos.

FLD is still the top method of dealing damage.who would choose a squiggle laser dealing 3 points here another 3 over there 3 off into the hillside over BLAM! 10 points CT!

FLD is the primary factor the meta evolves and revovles around if it were not then we would be seeing a greater diversity of weapons in use but we are not seeing this.We see FLD weapons being magnified by instant convergence.

Normalizing damage application methods should be first priority instant convergence is an issue it is not the cause of the current meta but a magnifying effect increasing the potency of the real problem.

[Ultimax]

1) PPCs are fine.
2) Your "solution" is entirely too convoluted.

Mister D, on 05 June 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

PPC's were meant to soften targets at long range, not annihilate them instantly at long range.

When were you ever "annihilated" at long range from a single PPC?

How about 2 PPCs?

3? 4?

How many PPC shots do you think you should be able to eat at once?


Focus fire will, and should, "annihilate" you.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 June 2014 - 04:36 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

So again, park the emotion, and look at the actual issue, please. It's not the weapon, but the core mechanics. Keep nerfing every weapon and soon all we will have are nerf guns.

I simply offered a suggestion, you guys seem to be the ones pouring emotion here, and the entire history of the PPC.

I doubt you even read my suggestion, you just say "oh another ppc balance thread" and freaked out.

Until they can get a reasonable convergence figured out, I thought this might be a good runner up in the meantime.

Edited by Mister D, 05 June 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lykaon, on 05 June 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Still people are not seeing the real issue

It's not convergence the instant convergence magnifies the problem but is not the problem in and of it's self.

If it was only convergence then why do we not see any of the non front loaded damage represented in the meta?

Do we see hoards of Victors with large lasers and LB10xs? Do we see swarms of poptarts using pulse lasers or lasers?

No we don't because Instant convergence is not the problem it does however vastly increase the effects of FLD.

Look at it like this let's say we get a suitable solution and instant convergence is rectified.All weapons are now effected by the same blanket rules that fixed the convergence issues.

What game do we have now?

Well Front loaded damage is still the superior method of applying damage.We will see a reduction in high volume FLD alphas but,will we see other weapons becoming as effective as FLD weapons?

We won't because convergence effects all weapons equally so Lasers will not get instant convergence just like an AC or PPC yet the AC or PPC will still never fail to apply 100% of the potential damage to a single location on the target when the target is hit.Lasers are still squiggling damage over several location meanwhile PPCs are blasting 10 point chunks out of center torsos.

FLD is still the top method of dealing damage.who would choose a squiggle laser dealing 3 points here another 3 over there 3 off into the hillside over BLAM! 10 points CT!

FLD is the primary factor the meta evolves and revovles around if it were not then we would be seeing a greater diversity of weapons in use but we are not seeing this.We see FLD weapons being magnified by instant convergence.

Normalizing damage application methods should be first priority instant convergence is an issue it is not the cause of the current meta but a magnifying effect increasing the potency of the real problem.

Add a CoF to multiple FLD weapons and watch the problem fade. NOBODY complains about a Single PPC or AC. No its always the combination of Multiple PPC/ACs. Convergence not FLD.

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

PPCs have always done 10 (15 for clan) damage to one location at long range. Not splash. Not spread. You got LRMs and LB-X for that. PPCs are a bloody laser guided, focused bolt of lightning. They even named a wicked white lightning based cocktail after them because of the punch PPCs were famous for. They were, and should be, considered, ton for ton, the most effective weapon developed, with heat being their achilles heal (and short range accuracy, which BTW, they still did FULL damage under 90 meters, they simply had a serious to hit penalty)

So again, park the emotion, and look at the actual issue, please. It's not the weapon, but the core mechanics. Keep nerfing every weapon and soon all we will have are nerf guns.

this logic, so why do lasers have spread their damage over time than and are not an instant damage beam?

[Kinski Orlawisch]

LOL. PPC in BT DID damage at 0-30m....but you got a to hit modification. ..+3?
So what are you talking about? This is not Tabletop.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 05 June 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

this logic, so why do lasers have spread their damage over time than and are not an instant damage beam?

Lasers do damage through heat not velocity.

Marc von der Heide, on 05 June 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

LOL. PPC in BT DID damage at 0-30m....but you got a to hit modification. ..+3?
So what are you talking about? This is not Tabletop.

A charging like the Gauss would simulate that penalty nicely.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 05 June 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

I simply offered a suggestion, you guys seem to be the ones pouring emotion here, and the entire history of the PPC.

Until they can get a reasonable convergence figured out, I thought this might be a good runner up in the meantime.

Lykaon, on 05 June 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

stuff

and nerf the weapons now, they have less reason to try to fix convergence. Bandaid applied, arterial bleed continues.

People can vilify a weapon or even FLD, but neither are game breaking in themselves. The ability to instantly apply 30+ FLD damage, pinpoint on target, while at full run, jumping, etc is the issue.

No one cries about FLD in our Stock Mech Matches. Why? Because nearly no mech can deliver that much to one location, one shot. The AWS-8Q can, but it overheats pretty fast if it tries. Painting symptoms as the boogeymen just obscures the real culprits.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lily from animove, on 05 June 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

this logic, so why do lasers have spread their damage over time than and are not an instant damage beam?

nothing to do with table top. I was defending the "always have been comment", not PGIs choice of differing weapon mechanics.


Which I will now defend. as a great way to differentiate weapon systems, and one of the things PGI got universally glowing review for, back in CB. Because lasers like the Medium for instance have far more power per ton than a PPC. I can pack 3 Medium lasers for less heat than a PPC; 50% more damage, and 4 tons less. Yes, Half the range. With those savings, who cares?

So PGI did something not only smart, but cool. They decided NOT to make every weapon a variation of cookie cutter DoT. PPCs pay more than enough tonnage, crit and heat tax, not to mention non hitscan projectile, to deserve something in their bloody favor.

[Lykaon]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

No spread mechanic, sorry.


PPC IS balanced. Perfect weapon convergence is the issue. (Well one of the issues) Go slap a single PPC on your griffin, and support weapons, and come back and tell me how fearsome that PPC was. Or a near Stock K2. Keep the MG and Mediums, and bring back the 1000 damage match screens.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just tired of people wanting to "fix" the symptoms, instead of the disease.

sat we fix convergence go slap a single large pulse laser into a Griffin then take another griffin and slap in a single PPC

The Griffin with the pulse laser will squiggle it's damage 3 off into space 3 to the CT the other mech twists and 3 more go into the arm

PPC griffin however shoots BLAM! 10 points CT. The pulse laser griffin torso twist to spread damage but hey he's sh#t out of luck because PPCs front load damage so all 10 hit one spot.

Wash rinse repeat and watch people stop using pulse lasers because they can't always land 100% of their damage in one spot like a FLD PPC can.

This is the exact reason my Wolverine 7K uses an ER-PPC a large laser can't cut it but focused 10 point hits does.Oh and I do bring back 1k damage scores on occation mostly I manage 4-5 kills with 500-600 damage because you only need to hit a CT so many times to blow through when you do 10 a pop.(no laser squiggles for me)

[Bobzilla]

Mister D, on 05 June 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

Would this work?

Change PPC & ERPPC min range to 0

PPC & ERPPC gain full 10 damage potential at 100 meters, ramp up 1 damage each 10 meters, or decimal percentages for inbetweens.

EMP knockout starts at 50 meters to full max range on both PPC & ERPPC.

PPC & ERPPC deliver 50% of heat used to fire, and gives that heat to the enemy on a hit.
Heat tapers off starting at 50% for optimal range, and ramps down beyond that range.

PPC heat is pretty good where its at 10.
ERPPC heat reduced to 12.5 or 13

Since convergence can't be figured out in any sensible manner, PPC's need a little softening on how they deal damage.

So simulate a little splash.

On point, damage is 7.5 directly where it hits. Each body part near the hit recieves a % of splash damage and would require a formula for how it spreads.

A perfect CT hit in optimal range would give
7.5 to CT
0.75 to RT LT (1.25 total), 0.42 to HEAD/RA/LA (1.25 total)

Or randomly 1.25 to RT, 1.25 to RL (total 2.5) (as though its trying to ground the circuit, as lightning would do)

An arm hit
7.5 to Right Arm
2.5 to RT

Does this sound reasonable?

So 2 ppcs+2 ac5's would do 25 dmg to one spot, not 30. Isn't much of a difference, so you feel 25 dmg will be ok? I don't think it will make a difference, if you do 30 dmg shots for 2 mins or 25 dmg shots for 4 mins, either way you'll be kept at bay by the meta and the result will be the same. It's also the tactics that are used that attribute to the problem.